a case for christ

[Loismustdie 0]

First, it is impossible to be an atheist. To say you believe there is no God when you are not working with complete information is foolish. To say "based on the evidence that I am working with (or choosing) I believe there is no God" is also foolish (sort of like beliving your right hand is a laptop) because of the very nature of the thing you can't disprove. To be able to say there is no God you must have omnipotent knowledge and you don't. There are no atheists in the world.

Perhaps you have seen this: http://www.venganza.org/The Flying Spaghetti Monster. The point is this: an atheist does not try to disprove God. An atheist sees as much proof of God's existence as he does of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence. You said a person cannot be an atheist because they cannot prove that there is no God (this is your point, right?). This is like saying that a person cannot believe that Venus is a lifeless planet because nobody has ever PROVED that Venus is a lifeless planet. But you could hardly argue with somebody who made that assertion.One does not have to prove a thing's non-existence to believe in it's non-existence, IF that person also sees no proof of that thing's existence. I'm not arguing that atheists are correct, but I CAN show you proof that THEY exist.

It just depends on what you are willing to accept as proof- I haven't shown up in this thread for awhile and don't plan on staying long. The thing is this- any proof I can offer you you will give me a theory stating that I am wrong. The idea that an intellect created everything around you will be dismissed by an idea that it was just an explosion, which is alot like saying that I could go to a scrapyard, throw to junkers in the air at each other really, really hard and they would either immediately or through a matter of time form a perfectly working automobile. Which is ridiculous, but this is the type of nonsense that an atheist will cling to as possibility instead of accepting what is right in front of you. If the only proof that you will accept is God himself it ain't happening, he has done all he could to get his point across. There is much more compelling evidence for a creator then there is for not, but this is lost on a certain segment of society and that is something I learned long ag0- I cannot change anothers beliefs, I can offer ideas and example and reasonable explanation but unless that person is in a place where his/her heart is open and willing to see, they will not see. Simple as that.

[crowTrobot 2]

The idea that an intellect created everything around you will be dismissed by an idea that it was just an explosion, which is alot like saying that I could go to a scrapyard, throw to junkers in the air at each other really, really hard and they would either immediately or through a matter of time form a perfectly working automobile.

been through all this before. nobody currently possesses the knowledge of whether or not the universe could be entirely self-organizing, and there is plenty of evidence that it might be. ignorance does not validate ID.

If the only proof that you will accept is God himself it ain't happening, he has done all he could to get his point across.

yes, such as allowing belief in him to be used in terrible ways resulting in incredible suffering for humanity in his name, and creating a huge body of scientific evidence contradicting the likelyhood of his own existence. god doesn't seem very interested in us believing in him.

There is much more compelling evidence for a creator then there is for not

even if that were true (it's not) how do you know the creator is the christian god described in the bible? that's a big illogical leap. ID arguments have nothing to do with christianity.

unless that person is in a place where his/her heart is open and willing to see, they will not see.

typical anti-intellectual cult-speak nonsense. to translate "unless a person is emotionally vulnerable and prone to illogical emotionally-biased though processes, they can't be brainwashed".

[InertGrudge 0]

I don't mean to jump head-long into this argument, but I will anyways. Please note, however, that I am a pronounced atheist. I'm okay with that fact. Many of my best friends are some of the most religious people I know. I'm okay with that fact, too. This is all a way of saying that...believe or not, atheists and theists can get along rather well.I wanted to make a comment about ID. It's not science, people. In fact, it is not even close. Science implies that something can be proved or disproved using empirical evidence. ID can never fit into that category. I'm sure someone has brought up this point before, but I'm just being redundant for redundancies sake.The problem I have with labeling Biology textbooks with a little disclaimer about how Evolution is "just" a theory is that nearly every thing you find in a typical high school science book is a theory. Therefore, why don't we label a physics book with a label that says "Gravity is just a theory and you may start to float at random times of the day"? There have been plenty of counter-arguments and theories for every one of the scientific theories found in one of those books, yet Evolution against ID is singled out with a silly label. Why? Because ID is religious -- it is creationism. And nothing gets people more worked up than religion. Evolution, on the other hand, has a massive amount of empirical evidence in its favor. Sure, there are holes in the theory and it doesn't completely make sense right now. Isn't that the nature of such a theory, however? As the years have gone along, evolution has advanced greatly. I mean, it's not just Darwin's theory any longer. It has morphed and adapted to the evidence at hand. As the future progresses now, evolution will morph as well. Notice how ID will never do that. It will never be anything other than "the Universe is so complex that there must have been an intelligent creator behind it all." That's not science. That's all I'm saying. Continue on with the debate.

[Hubris 0]

Wait, wait, it's come down to Creationism vs. Evolution? Hah, come on, even the Catholic Church has already came to the logical medium between the two (God created the universe, but the big bang and evolution were just a natural progression in God's plan). Honestly, I think the whole creationism debate is a little primitive, and unneccessary. After all, what issues does it solve other than the creationism vs. evolution issue? None. I think the more important issue is the need for religion and/or spirituality in today's world. Y'know, weighing out all the pros and cons that you get from both and analyzing how it might actually be useful(or a hinderance) for today's societies. Honestly, who cares how the world started, knowing that answer won't make the issues of the world just melt away. You can't figure out if God exists or not, because the concept relies on a lack of evidence, and you can't disprove it because it's what I like to call an 'infalible concept'- it works on the idea that no evidence is needed, therefore proving it or disproving it is impossible in the end. It's just a waste of time in the end.Now, if we were to analyze the ideas that bible gives us, and look to see if those ideas are applicable or not to our time, there's the real debate that people should be looking into.

[76clubs 0]

Travis if your reading this, I tried to send you a p.m. about this and im not sure if it worked. could you send me a messege in response?

[Loismustdie 0]

The idea that an intellect created everything around you will be dismissed by an idea that it was just an explosion, which is alot like saying that I could go to a scrapyard, throw to junkers in the air at each other really, really hard and they would either immediately or through a matter of time form a perfectly working automobile.

been through all this before. nobody currently possesses the knowledge of whether or not the universe could be entirely self-organizing, and there is plenty of evidence that it might be. ignorance does not validate ID.

If the only proof that you will accept is God himself it ain't happening, he has done all he could to get his point across.

yes, such as allowing belief in him to be used in terrible ways resulting in incredible suffering for humanity in his name, and creating a huge body of scientific evidence contradicting the likelyhood of his own existence. god doesn't seem very interested in us believing in him.

There is much more compelling evidence for a creator then there is for not

even if that were true (it's not) how do you know the creator is the christian god described in the bible? that's a big illogical leap. ID arguments have nothing to do with christianity.

unless that person is in a place where his/her heart is open and willing to see, they will not see.

typical anti-intellectual cult-speak nonsense. to translate "unless a person is emotionally vulnerable and prone to illogical emotionally-biased though processes, they can't be brainwashed".

So believing in him isnt an option, but it's his fault people commit atrocities in his name? :shock: Either you believe in him or you don't, you cannot have it both ways. There is no evidence against a creator, not one bit- there are ideas of other possibilities, but no evidence against. As far as being brainwashed, that happens. Unfortunately, it happens. Not where I am affiliated, but it happens- seriously, the only thing I can say to you is this. Go ahead and live your life that ends when you die. That is fine- I choose to believe that there is life afterwards, and choose to be proactive in figuring out what said life could be or should be, what the available options are and if I can have any say in the matter. Religously speaking I can which is characteristic of any kind of spiritual belief system, not just christianity. God had a plan, which actually include you on some level in that he speaks of people that would deny his very existence, that would put the words of men over his. Lets analyze that- basically, the meat and potatoes of any argument against the bible comes down to whethet or not you believe that it was inspired by God, lets ignore the idea that he does not exist for a second. If you go with science, with eduacated mens ideas- guess what, you are still putting your faith in men, just a different group. Faith is just belief, and yours is attached to a different ideology than mine.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

There is no evidence against a creator, not one bit- there are ideas of other possibilities, but no evidence against.

This is true. There is absolutely no evidence against the notion that Odin created the universe from the corpse of Ymir. However, the reason this notion isn't taught as an alternative cosmological theory is that there's no evidence in favour of this particular myth, either. Believers in Odin might well be willing to interpret everything they see in light of their beliefs, but to do so they have to misinterpret or ignore a massive amount of evidence that doesn't support their particular mythology. The same, of course, is true of the creation myths held by other faiths, including various brands of biblical literalism.

[crowTrobot 2]

So believing in him isnt an option, but it's his fault people commit atrocities in his name? :shock: Either you believe in him or you don't, you cannot have it both ways.

you missed the sarcasm. those things are evidence against (an interested in us) god existing.

There is no evidence against a creator, not one bit- there are ideas of other possibilities, but no evidence against.

well obviously you can't disprove the existence of something metaphysical using logic. but there is logical evidence that if a creator exists he's not particularly interested in us believing in him. there is also a lot of evidence that the bible is largely fiction combined with embellished history (and books like stroble's would never show that side of course).

Faith is just belief, and yours is attached to a different ideology than mine.

no, i'm agnostic. i don't have "faith" in anything. however i can see where faith in general is detrimental to the path humanity is taking, which is why i bother with this.

[Loismustdie 0]

So believing in him isnt an option, but it's his fault people commit atrocities in his name? :shock: Either you believe in him or you don't, you cannot have it both ways.

you missed the sarcasm. those things are evidence against (an interested in us) god existing.

There is no evidence against a creator, not one bit- there are ideas of other possibilities, but no evidence against.

well obviously you can't disprove the existence of something metaphysical using logic. but there is logical evidence that if a creator exists he's not particularly interested in us believing in him. there is also a lot of evidence that the bible is largely fiction combined with embellished history (and books like stroble's would never show that side of course).

Faith is just belief, and yours is attached to a different ideology than mine.

no, i'm agnostic. i don't have "faith" in anything. however i can see where faith in general is detrimental to the path humanity is taking, which is why i bother with this.

One thing I will agree with you on- he could care less about people who choose not to believe. He would like you too, he wants you to, but it is up to you.

[crowTrobot 2]

One thing I will agree with you on- he could care less about people who choose not to believe.

wow god sounds pretty snooty. not sure i'd want to spend eternity with a god like that.

[timwakefield 68]

 It just depends on what you are willing to accept as proof- I haven't shown up in this thread for awhile and don't plan on staying long. The thing is this- any proof I can offer you you will give me a theory stating that I am wrong. The idea that an intellect created everything around you will be dismissed by an idea that it was just an explosion, which is alot like saying that I could go to a scrapyard, throw to junkers in the air at each other really, really hard and they would either immediately or through a matter of time form a perfectly working automobile. Which is ridiculous, but this is the type of nonsense that an atheist will cling to as possibility instead of accepting what is right in front of you. If the only proof that you will accept is God himself it ain't happening, he has done all he could to get his point across.   There is much more compelling evidence for a creator then there is for not, but this is lost on a certain segment of society and that is something I learned long ag0- I cannot change anothers beliefs, I can offer ideas and example and reasonable explanation but unless that person is in a place where his/her heart is open and willing to see, they will not see. Simple as that.

"A complicated thing" in this passage refers to a living organism. "A complicated thing is one whose existence we do not feel inclined to take for granted, because it is too 'improbable.' It could not have come into existence in a single act of chance. We shall explain its coming into existence as a consequence of gradual, cumulative, step-by-step transformations from simpler things, from primordial objects sufficiently simple to have come into being by chance." - Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker"

[Loismustdie 0]

 It just depends on what you are willing to accept as proof- I haven't shown up in this thread for awhile and don't plan on staying long. The thing is this- any proof I can offer you you will give me a theory stating that I am wrong. The idea that an intellect created everything around you will be dismissed by an idea that it was just an explosion, which is alot like saying that I could go to a scrapyard, throw to junkers in the air at each other really, really hard and they would either immediately or through a matter of time form a perfectly working automobile. Which is ridiculous, but this is the type of nonsense that an atheist will cling to as possibility instead of accepting what is right in front of you. If the only proof that you will accept is God himself it ain't happening, he has done all he could to get his point across.   There is much more compelling evidence for a creator then there is for not, but this is lost on a certain segment of society and that is something I learned long ag0- I cannot change anothers beliefs, I can offer ideas and example and reasonable explanation but unless that person is in a place where his/her heart is open and willing to see, they will not see. Simple as that.

"A complicated thing" in this passage refers to a living organism. "A complicated thing is one whose existence we do not feel inclined to take for granted, because it is too 'improbable.' It could not have come into existence in a single act of chance. We shall explain its coming into existence as a consequence of gradual, cumulative, step-by-step transformations from simpler things, from primordial objects sufficiently simple to have come into being by chance." - Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker"

Like I care what a marginal starter/long reliever has to say about religion. :-) Seriously, I have been wanting to say that for awhile now. The knuckleball itself should be a form of religion. I believe.

[Loismustdie 0]

One thing I will agree with you on- he could care less about people who choose not to believe.

wow god sounds pretty snooty. not sure i'd want to spend eternity with a god like that.

No, it's just that he doesn't need your belief to reign supreme- it's not like Santa Claus ( if everyone stops believing there will be no christmas!! ) it's just reality- to him, you are as mundane as the next guy.

[crowTrobot 2]

he doesn't need your belief to reign supreme- it's not like Santa Claus

keep preaching brother! hallelujah!i just bought a "holiday" tree. take that bill o'reilly.

[crowTrobot 2]

The knuckleball itself should be a form of religion. I believe.

and believers shall be known as knuckleheads

[spm 1]

One thing I will agree with you on- he could care less about people who choose not to believe.

wow god sounds pretty snooty. not sure i'd want to spend eternity with a god like that.

No, it's just that he doesn't need your belief to reign supreme- it's not like Santa Claus ( if everyone stops believing there will be no christmas!! ) it's just reality- to him, you are as mundane as the next guy.

One question and one question only - Give me one single shread of evidence, that anything in your statement is true?In the UK, religion is now generally taught as 'subjective'.

[Loismustdie 0]

One thing I will agree with you on- he could care less about people who choose not to believe.

wow god sounds pretty snooty. not sure i'd want to spend eternity with a god like that.

No, it's just that he doesn't need your belief to reign supreme- it's not like Santa Claus ( if everyone stops believing there will be no christmas!! ) it's just reality- to him, you are as mundane as the next guy.

One question and one question only - Give me one single shread of evidence, that anything in your statement is true?In the UK, religion is now generally taught as 'subjective'.

God does not need you to believe in him to exist. Never has, never did. In order to recognize that you have to know God, on some level. Other than that I cannot help you. Oh, and CrowTrobot I loved the knuckleheads remark, do I know how to set you up or what?

[UglyJimStudly 0]

God does not need you to believe in him to exist.

Neither does Odin, or Pelor, or the invisible pink unicorn, or any other object of pure faith one might indicate. I'm glad you've completely abandoned any pretense of having a fact-based case to make, it's clear that you're not very comfortable with 'em, but I think you should understand that it does make it difficult for some folks to take your new faith-based case seriously. The only case you've made as to why somebody should embrace your faith is that you believe in it, and with all due respect you haven't shown any particular enlightenment in this thread that would convince doubters to follow you. Quite the opposite, your facts have been so muddled that if you were now to tell me the sky was blue, I'd go outside to double-check.

[spm 1]

One thing I will agree with you on- he could care less about people who choose not to believe.

wow god sounds pretty snooty. not sure i'd want to spend eternity with a god like that.

No, it's just that he doesn't need your belief to reign supreme- it's not like Santa Claus ( if everyone stops believing there will be no christmas!! ) it's just reality- to him, you are as mundane as the next guy.

One question and one question only - Give me one single shread of evidence, that anything in your statement is true?In the UK, religion is now generally taught as 'subjective'.

God does not need you to believe in him to exist. Never has, never did. In order to recognize that you have to know God, on some level. Other than that I cannot help you. Oh, and CrowTrobot I loved the knuckleheads remark, do I know how to set you up or what?

The Lepricorn King does not need you to believe in him to exist.Never has, never did.In order to recognize that you have to know The Lepricorn King, on some level.One question and one question only - Is my statement any less valid than yours?

[timwakefield 68]

It just depends on what you are willing to accept as proof- I haven't shown up in this thread for awhile and don't plan on staying long. The thing is this- any proof I can offer you you will give me a theory stating that I am wrong. The idea that an intellect created everything around you will be dismissed by an idea that it was just an explosion, which is alot like saying that I could go to a scrapyard, throw to junkers in the air at each other really, really hard and they would either immediately or through a matter of time form a perfectly working automobile. Which is ridiculous, but this is the type of nonsense that an atheist will cling to as possibility instead of accepting what is right in front of you. If the only proof that you will accept is God himself it ain't happening, he has done all he could to get his point across. There is much more compelling evidence for a creator then there is for not, but this is lost on a certain segment of society and that is something I learned long ag0- I cannot change anothers beliefs, I can offer ideas and example and reasonable explanation but unless that person is in a place where his/her heart is open and willing to see, they will not see. Simple as that.

"A complicated thing" in this passage refers to a living organism. "A complicated thing is one whose existence we do not feel inclined to take for granted, because it is too 'improbable.' It could not have come into existence in a single act of chance. We shall explain its coming into existence as a consequence of gradual, cumulative, step-by-step transformations from simpler things, from primordial objects sufficiently simple to have come into being by chance." - Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker"

Like I care what a marginal starter/long reliever has to say about religion. :-) Seriously, I have been wanting to say that for awhile now. The knuckleball itself should be a form of religion. I believe.

Thou shalt not rotate.

[Loismustdie 0]

Last time I checked, I was not the only one in the world who believed in a higher power. It is actually quite prevelant. The answers are quite simple, for all of you, if you just open your eyes. Somebody created all of this, it is the only plausible reason for it all being here. When I say it I mean nature, life and the the things surrounding it. God- responsible for the Earth, surrounding space and solar system, human beings, animals, and nature. Us- responsible for various inventions and the building of physical things, responsible for Wars ( as God no longer endorse this as an action that a Christian should take part in ) We are responsible for hate and the things that it brings- many atrocities have been commited and attributed to religion and God, but since we know that God does not condone these things than we know that it is of some other origin-MAN, as led by Satan. Your questions are for the most part valid, and some are just plain unanswerable in that I cannot grab God by the hand and introduce him to you face to face- I just can't, no one can and if that is the proof you need to believe in him guess what? IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

[crowTrobot 2]

The answers are quite simple, for all of you, if you just open your eyes. Somebody created all of this, it is the only plausible reason for it all being here.

how do you know "all of this" has to have a reason to exist? "purpose" may be an entirely human concept that the universe could care less about. most theists aren't capable of grasping that concept, let alone refuting it, because their thought patterns are too egocentric.

[Loismustdie 0]

 The answers are quite simple, for all of you, if you just open your eyes. Somebody created all of this, it is the only plausible reason for it all being here.

how do you know "all of this" has to have a reason to exist? "purpose" may be an entirely human concept that the universe could care less about. most theists aren't capable of grasping that concept, let alone refuting it, because their thought patterns are too egocentric.

We are all born with a purpose, a predetermined purpose that is realized by choice made by self, and that is to do Gods will. Whether we do that is entirely up to us. If we decide not to, it is on us. If we decide to, than he will help you, through his son, along the way. The overall answer you are looking for is one only God can answer- Why? Why even create this game? It would be nice to ask him now, and it is a question that I ask myself- what is the point of what largely seems like a game? On a simple level, it would be like if I had the power to bring weeble wobbles to life, and then gave them a set of rules to live by that they could choose to live by or not, with consequences and rewards for all decisions. Why even put the weebles in that position in the first place? The only answer that I can humanly come up with is that I can, and therefore I did. If you read the Bible you would know that God has an interesting Love Hate relationship with man- he love his creation but at the same time hates the things that the creation was ultimately capable of because said creation has no real boundaries with it's behavior- bad behavior being what it is it tends to escalate, the flesh can never be satisfied. I would not go so far as to say that God did not know that it could be that bad, but I wonder if he just chose not to look until it was too late. Just another question we cannot answer in the human form.

[crowTrobot 2]

[Hubris 0]

Just to clear things up, LoisMustDie, you have to realize that the questions people are asking are questions for YOU, not questions for God.Unlike God, you have to answer for your actions to other people. Everyone is asking "How can you be so sure that God exists?" You are answering them with "We are all created by God". Obviously, that isn't the answer to the question at all. A better answer would sound like "I can't be sure that God exists, but my belief, which does help me through life requires me to believe that the existence of God is a definitive fact. I cannot explain this to you because it is a matter of subjective experience - whether or not God exists. It is a matter of subjective experience because if God exists, we are open to experience him in our lives, but we are also allowed to shun him out of our lives. Also, if God doesn't exist we are also allowed to experience him in our lives (although it would be a self-created illusion, but that doesn't change much because either way it would be a subjective experience), and we are allowed to shun him out of our lives if we don't believe in him. Overall, I cannot explain how God exists, or show you in an empirical fashion that he does exist. What I can do is show you that it is possible for God to exist in our lives if we allow him too. Religion is an issue of faith and personal experience, not of empirical facts and analysis through observation and deduction, therefore, I cannot answer your question, I can only show you that I believe him to exist, and many others do as well."Honestly, if you ask any intelligent Priest the question "How can you be so sure that God exists?" you'll get something like that.And for the people asking the question "How can you be so sure that God exists?" Please STOP. The question is unanswerable because faith is the key element in maintaining that belief, and faith is essentially a belief based on personal experience and nothing more. You'll never get an answer for that question, because it doesn't exist. If a religious person went up to you and asked "How can you put your faith in science?" you would answer with "Because science is right most of the time, and it helps people daily in their lives. Because science gives proof". However, that would also be the wrong answer, because the more you get into science, the more you realize that science itself is on a shaky foundation, and science is consistently proving itself wrong. Sure science understands biology, chemistry, basic physics, but honestly, it all rests on underlying beliefs that are nearly impossible to disprove or prove. For example: Cells are made of molecules, molecules are made of atoms, the existence of atoms - which relies on our belief on the structure of atoms - which relies on the belief of the existence of subatomic particles like protons, neutrons and electrons - which relies on our belief of even smaller particles like quarks, photons and dark matter - which in turn all comes down to Quantum Physics - a field where the observer directly affects every experiment therefore making it nearly impossible to discover anything, therefore, how can we be certain in the manner that cells operate in, after all, its all on shaky foundation that we end up putting our faith in. Don't get me wrong, science is easier to believe in because it is a self-correcting field - when it sees something that disproves what was previously demonstrated the entire system gets changed. One of the few key differences between religion and science is that religion doesn't do that.If you ask any educated scientists (one that isn't arrogant) you should get an answer like that. The fact is that we know VERY LITTLE about reality and its underlying principles that govern it. Hell, there's even beliefs out there founded on science that reality is nothing more than the reflection of consciousness.