a case for christ

[avsfan 0]

Hey people.  by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

Not to be a jerk but did you just insinuate all other religions besides Christanity are not right? :shock:

[Longshanks 0]

Hey people.  by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

Not to be a jerk but did you just insinuate all other religions besides Christanity are not right? :shock:

here comes a can of worms that i will open, as a christian yes, we believe christ is the ONLY way, I am not comdemning anybody but christ himself said that the only way to the father is through the son.

[avsfan 0]

Hey people. by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

Not to be a jerk but did you just insinuate all other religions besides Christanity are not right? :shock:

here comes a can of worms that i will open, as a christian yes, we believe christ is the ONLY way, I am not comdemning anybody but christ himself said that the only way to the father is through the son.

I understand the beleif system. I just don't understand how this translates into having the "right faith"?

[timbo83 0]

Hey people. by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

Not to be a jerk but did you just insinuate all other religions besides Christanity are not right? :shock:

good point avsfan. Even if we were to go on odds (something i sure many people on this site regularly do) there is no more than 1 billion christians. There are over 2.5 billion muslim people around the world so if i did find out there was a type of god and i had to make a decision, i would go with them based on the odds :roll:

[timbo83 0]

Hey people. by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

Not to be a jerk but did you just insinuate all other religions besides Christanity are not right? :shock:

good point avsfan. Even if we were to go on odds (something i sure many people on this site regularly do) there is no more than 1 billion christians. There are over 2.5 billion muslim people around the world so if i did find out there was a type of god and i had to make a decision, i would go with them based on the odds :roll:

edit: chances of that happening though - 0.0% 8)

[Ralphy 0]

this may have already been posted.I've always thought religion has too may holes in it and that it is hypocritical. This is a real letterA Letter to Dr. LauraDr Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the InternetDear Dr. Laura,Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that (Leviticus 18:22) clearly states it to be an abomination.End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in (Exodus 21:7). In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.4. (Lev. 25:44) states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 35:2) clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?7. (Lev. 21:20) states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by (Lev.19:27). How should they die?9. I know from (Lev.11:6-8 ) that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?10. My uncle has a farm. He violates (Lev. 19:19) by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.Your devoted fan, Jimsource : http://www.fortliberty.org/patriotic-humor...r/drlaura.shtmljust adding to the debate :?

Oh, this is great stuff. thanks for posting it. dr laura is a clown.someone gave me the book to read 5 years ago. after reading it (Lee Strobel) I just shook my head in pity for the poor fools who are so easily fooled by wishful thinking.my first thought was that the entire book was based on, "so and so said that he seen it (jesus) therefore it must be true." --or "it must be true becasue a bunch of people who hung around jesus said it was true."I was NOT impressed at all.However, i plan on reading the book again with a much more open mind. a lot has changed in the past 5 years, and things that i once thought were impossible have been shown to exist.i must rid myself of my bias. maybe in some parallel universe it is true.

[76clubs 0]

I have sent Daniel two emails about this and he hasn't gotten back

[jj_frap 0]

Hugo Chavez is doing far more to save this world than a bunch of Bible thumpers could ever do. The world ought to be run on a foundation of civil libertarianism, equality of opportunity, representative democracy, sustainable development, and secular government.

[crowTrobot 2]

The world ought to be run on a foundation of civil libertarianism, equality of opportunity, representative democracy, sustainable development, and secular government.

it will be in 25-50 years when modern society becomes more distanced from the past and more informed, and finally matures enough to see the religeous extreme right for what it is. thankfully bush's incompetence will probably help speed things up a little.

[deadmoney4u 0]

One considers oneself an atheist.I do not pray to a God nor a Jesus nor Mohammed etc etc, am I therefore an atheist?I have had near death experiences and I beleive 100% in the "after-life".This is serious so not intended for humour.......I lost a relative and found their body, upon entering the room in which they lay I felt an overpowering sense of love and warmth that of which I have never felt, spiritual if you like. Many other 6th sense "happennings" have blessed my life but do I subscribe to a religion or God? NO i do not.I respect others faiths but follow none myself.However I have no doubt at all in my mind that we are all part of a greater being and I look forward to seeing my dear departed again and sharing my love with them.I still consider myself a none religious person although my God is out there somewhere.

[Jesse Jersey 0]

Daniel, thank you for the offer of the book "A Case for Christ". I plan to take you up on your offer.I have placed my faith in Christ Jesus as well. Another book that I read at least part of in the past was by Josh McDowell titled "Evidence That Demands a Verdict". I now plan to reread it.Also, one of the other posters mentioned the C.S. Lewis book "Mere Christianity". I certainly know of C.S. Lewis but I have never read any of his books. The other posters mention of this book has inspired me to read it as well.Thank you for your provision of this website and your support of FCP members.

[Wingmaster05 0]

mere christianity was a good read, unfortunately i don't remember who i lent it to...or maybe i was the person borrowing?

[Hubris 0]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.*breath*AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.Wait, okay... okay. So, a bunch of proffesional/semi-professional GAMBLERS are talking about how they're CHRISTIAN.Gambler + Christian = SINNER.I'm sorry to say, but if you're christian AT ALL, you should know that gambling is considered a sin. Just think about it, you're building your careers on possibly the broken lives of gambling addicts who lost their money to you. You rob people for a living, no more and no less. I don't see anything christian in that. I don't mean to be offensive, but the hypocrisy of the situation is more than hilarious. You may have similar values to Christians, you may like Jesus and the bible, you may even go to church occasionally (I doubt that though), and you may believe in God, but if you gamble for a living, you are not following a Christian faith. You are a fan of christianity, not a participant.Obviously none of you are christian. You may believe in God and all that stuff, and the bible, but you are NOT christian if you're doing that for a living. Sorry, but there's more to being christian than reading the bible and believing in God - it's supposed to be a life commitment. You could quit a life of gambling/sinning/whatever and become Christian, but as of now, you aren't.Anywho, I actually do have some valuable things to say, so I here I go jumping into the debate. Here's my two cents:Spirituality is a part of everyone, it's a part of general human psychology. Spirituality has a center that represents it in the brain, its wired into us. No matter who we are, at some point in our lives we feel our 'spiritual sense' kick in. I'm sure all of us at one time has felt 'at peace with everything' and 'full of love for the world and everyone in it'. Lots of people don't know how to identify the feeling, and most of those people are atheists. The ones who do identify the feeling either take the claim of being a 'spiritual person' or follow some sort of religious pratice. Now, just because spirituality is a feeling, does not mean it's useless. Spirituality can do everything for you, the feeling can cheer you up at your worst, the feeling can make you feel welcomed in a situation where you would normally feel insecure, it can make you gain patience for people around you, it can ease your mind, it can make you generally a happier person (and on average spiritual people are happier people). Spirituality is a part of life, plain and simple, there's no denying it. It's a part of being human, if you deny that, then you are missing out on a big chunk of life, and you're making things on yourself harder than they should be.Saying that though, I suggest that you christians read a book out there called 'Quantum Theology'. The first few chapters is what I'm referring to at this point. Anyways, what it talks about is the futility of organized religion's attempt to represent spirituality. Religion is not an adequate representation of spirituality. Religion only buffers out spirituality with dogma. The practices of praying and meditation will help you enhance the spiritual side of your life, but reading the bible won't. Will covering up your wife's face when she's in public demonstrate your spirituality? No, it's just generally a futile practice. Will chopping off someone's hands when they steal make you more spiritual? No, it's just another futile practice created by a religious dogma. Religion is general just gets in the way of actually practicing your spirituality, and it makes you focus on other trivial matters like "How many of each animal did Noah bring on his arc?" or "Kill the infidels!". Yeah right, that's important, and useful.Do you think it's just a coincidence that the value systems designed in all major religions generally reflect each other (Don't kill, Don't steal, love your neighbor, etc, etc), and that every religion is founded in spirituality? Can you make the correlation? Religious values generally reflect what the feeling of spirituality makes you feel. When you're in a spiritual state of mind you love your neighbor, you don''t want to hurt other people, you love yourself, you love life, you feel clear and focused, you feel confident and secure, and you feel as only a small part in the grand scheme of things. Now, is it just a coincidence that EVERY major religion reflects those values? And that every religion happens to be founded on spirituality? And that spirituality is a feeling all of us can experience? And isn't it just normal for humans to try and explain something that they don't understand, and then create a belief for people to follow? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty normal of human behavior.And honestly, does Jesus really need to be the son of God? He could have just been a smart and spiritual guy! Buddha and Mohammed too. They could have just been guys who were all very spiritual, who felt it day in and day out so much that they needed to share it with people around them (a VERY normal HUMAN characteristic).Anyways, my overall opinion is that spirituality = good, religion = bad. Spiritual practice = good, religious practice = bad.My two cents.

[guinevar 0]

First, it is impossible to be an atheist. To say you believe there is no God when you are not working with complete information is foolish. To say "based on the evidence that I am working with (or choosing) I believe there is no God" is also foolish (sort of like beliving your right hand is a laptop) because of the very nature of the thing you can't disprove. To be able to say there is no God you must have omnipotent knowledge and you don't. There are no atheists in the world.Secondly, “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” [CS Lewis, Mere Christianity]

[avsfan 0]

I view Jesus as a dissident political agitator. But thats just me.And Guinavere I dont think Jesus claim was as kooky as you think. From what I understand about history Jesus's claim of being the son of god was unique but tons of ppl claimed to be pprophets of god at the time.

[crowTrobot 2]

Anyways, my overall opinion is that spirituality = good, religion = bad. Spiritual practice = good, religious practice = bad.

i agree in principal but don't like the wording. generally speaking the term "spiritual" implies you think you are unquestionably in touch with something metaphysical. i think what you are describing as a "spiritual state of mind" is more likely just an emergent *physical* state of mind/body representing beneficial progress in the evolution/maturation of human society. or at least i think if humanity as a whole was more realistic about that possibility it would be easier to get away from religious dogma and the social boundaries it creates.i agree almost all christians are hypocrites including DN. if they really believed in jesus as the son of god and took his words in the bible seriously they would drop everything superficial about this life and spend every possible bit of energy trying to spread the word and help their fellow man - something full time professional gambling hoping to pile up money doesn't logically fit with.

[crowTrobot 2]

First, it is impossible to be an atheist.  To say you believe there is no God when you are not working with complete information is foolish. To say "based on the evidence that I am working with (or choosing) I believe there is no God" is also foolish (sort of like beliving your right hand is a laptop) because of the very nature of the thing you can't disprove. To be able to say there is no God you must have omnipotent knowledge and you don't. There are no atheists in the world.

so how do you know your belief there IS a god isn't based on incomplete information and illusionary? do you have omnipotent knowledge? the logic you're using CONTRADICTS YOUR OWN FAITH. (strong) atheism is no more or less foolish than theism. agnostics rule!!

[Hubris 0]

Oh yeah, I wasn't claiming that spirituality is a link to some metaphysical world beyond our own, I think the most likely scenario is that its an evolutionary bi-product (like morality) that we just happen to experience. It's more a state of mind than anything. I like to think of it like an emotion, after all, it behaves in the same manner (it affects us down to the core, it can be controlled through practice, and it affects our perception of our surroundings). If being a spiritual state of mind isn't an emotion, I don't know what is.Don't get me wrong, it's POSSIBLE it really is a connection to a divine being, but that belief in itself is redundant - it's impossible to prove, because the premise of believing in such a thing is that it is simply an issue of faith, and not evidence. Spiritual faith is the funniest form of circular logic in the world, because so many people support it.

[Hubris 0]

First, it is impossible to be an atheist.  To say you believe there is no God when you are not working with complete information is foolish. To say "based on the evidence that I am working with (or choosing) I believe there is no God" is also foolish (sort of like beliving your right hand is a laptop) because of the very nature of the thing you can't disprove. To be able to say there is no God you must have omnipotent knowledge and you don't. There are no atheists in the world.Secondly,  “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” [CS Lewis, Mere Christianity]

Okay, both of those paragraphs are garbage. No offense, but here's why.It's easy to be an atheist, you just have to renounce the existence of God. The irony of that is that it takes just as much faith to renounce God than it does to carry a belief in God. Both beliefs are the same in essence, they are just the opposites of each other. Atheists are FULL of faith, just as much as any religious person. Agnostic people are the only ones who don't place faith in existential interpretations. As for the second paragraph, that is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Humans teach other humans things, period. My parents taught me morals as a child, I follow many of those morals, but my parents are not God. I don't bow down to them like they are the Be All and End All of the world. I've learned lessons about life from millions of different people - from crack addicts to priests. None of them were the messiah, and had any of them claimed to be, I would've ignored their claim but still listened to what they had to say. Jesus could have been crazy about his own identity, but it does not take away from the fact that his ideas were all generally good. Any smart man can come to those conclusions, and Jesus was definintely not the first. His ideas are good because they coincide with how most of us want to be treated - if we hurt someone, do we want them to hurt us back? No, we don't. Do we want our neighbor to love us? Yeah, we do. Do we wish all humanity would love, respect and care for each other? Yeah, most of us do wish that it would be like that. Jesus, as a man, was nothing more than practical and intuitive towards the innate desires that other people have - to be loved and loving, to be respectful and respected and to be happy and bring happiness. There are people like that alive today, and people who keep that in mind when their interacting with other people are generally much better to be around. Is it really hard to notice that? No, any man could. Just remember, the first thing you have to do to analyze any philosophical approach is shed the identity of the person who is telling that to you - you have to simply analyze the ideas and not the person. Overall, his ideas were great. His claim to being the son of God though, yeah, a little crazy - but that's not what's important. I think the question of him being the son of God is irrelevant to what is written about his views on life, human or a God, his ideas remain the same.

[guinevar 0]

I think the question of him being the son of God is irrelevant to what is written about his views on life, human or a God, his ideas remain the same.

From this statement, it seems rather obvious to me you are unaware of the "ideas" Jesus preached.Try reading the book of John.

[Hubris 0]

Dude, I grew up in a huge catholic family, and went to catholic schools my entire life, if it's one thing I know, its the bible. And why would I read John? Come on, everyone knows he's the oddball of the three.

[timwakefield 68]

First, it is impossible to be an atheist. To say you believe there is no God when you are not working with complete information is foolish. To say "based on the evidence that I am working with (or choosing) I believe there is no God" is also foolish (sort of like beliving your right hand is a laptop) because of the very nature of the thing you can't disprove. To be able to say there is no God you must have omnipotent knowledge and you don't. There are no atheists in the world.

Perhaps you have seen this: http://www.venganza.org/The Flying Spaghetti Monster. The point is this: an atheist does not try to disprove God. An atheist sees as much proof of God's existence as he does of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence. You said a person cannot be an atheist because they cannot prove that there is no God (this is your point, right?). This is like saying that a person cannot believe that Venus is a lifeless planet because nobody has ever PROVED that Venus is a lifeless planet. But you could hardly argue with somebody who made that assertion.One does not have to prove a thing's non-existence to believe in it's non-existence, IF that person also sees no proof of that thing's existence. I'm not arguing that atheists are correct, but I CAN show you proof that THEY exist.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

First, it is impossible to be an atheist.To say you believe there is no God when you are not working with complete information is foolish.

The problem with this argument is that it's equally convincing at proving the existence of Odin or Illuvatar or Pelor as it is any other version of "God". An argument that supports the existence of fictional characters(1) usually isn't worth very much.Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods. It is as valid and possible as most peoples' lack of belief in invisible pink unicorns. It's certainly not the only valid and possible position - I am not an atheist, for example - but to say that it's impossible is simply a lie.So far as Lewis' quote goes, it only holds nowadays if you take a view of the New Testament that is on relatively shaky scholarly grounds - that the gospels were written by people who knew Jesus personally and accurately transcribed what he said. It's not clear that either of those postulates is true, particularly once you get into comparitive religious studies and investigate the similarities between Christ and other messiah figures such as Mithra, Horus, and Krishna.(1) Illuvatar is the creator-god of Tolkien's Middle Earth, Pelor is one of the deities in the Dungeons and Dragons Players' Handbook, both are considered fictional by their creators.

[crowTrobot 2]

So far as Lewis' quote goes, it only holds nowadays if you take a view of the New Testament that is on relatively shaky scholarly grounds - that the gospels were written by people who knew Jesus personally and accurately transcribed what he said. It's not clear that either of those postulates is true, particularly once you get into comparitive religious studies and investigate the similarities between Christ and other messiah figures such as Mithra, Horus, and Krishna.

there was just a nat geo science of the bible episode detailing the contraditictions in the 4 gospels both among themselves and with what were known customs of the time, making a good case that they were all (the 4 in the bible, anyway) written 2nd-hand.

[Loismustdie 0]

I view Jesus as a dissident political agitator. But thats just me.And Guinavere I dont think Jesus claim was as kooky as you think. From what I understand about history Jesus's claim of being the son of god was unique but tons of ppl claimed to be pprophets of god at the time.

There actually were various prophets of God, so I can't say I undrerstand you point.