Am I Spewing Preflop?

[mrdannyg 274]

Absolute PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $3/$69 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with [4s] [5s] 4 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.Flop: [Js] [8s] [4d] (7.67SB, 2 players)Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.Turn: [9c] (5.83BB, 2 players)Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.River: [Kc] (9.83BB, 2 players)Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.Results:Final pot: 9.83BBusually i start around 67s, but i figure 45s is not much different than 79 or something, which i'd raise there too. in this case, the big blind is about 9/3/2, so i lowered my standards a bit.this is kind of a general question too though - i'm often raising, then realizing that if i get called by anyone except the blinds, i'm probably in trouble. my hands always have good playability (generally suited connectors or something) so my implied odds aren't terrible. but i'm still often playing hands HU OOP with a worse starting hand.Opinions?

[Moneyball16 0]

I wouldn't raise anything worse than JTs in that spot normally. My opening standards may be too tight thought. Against a rock in the BB like the one present I open with 65s+ and T8s+. These may be way off though. I am interested how others feel on this topic.

[mrdannyg 274]

I should clarify that this is a pretty tight 9-handed 3/6 game. There are rarely open-limpers preflop, and any hand I am entering is going to be with a raise (if at all).so limping with 78s there isn't really an option (unless someone can offer some excellent reasons), but my question is if folding>raising.

[DougieG 0]

I like the raise here due to the tight BB. He will probably fold to the steal here and if he doesn't you can bet the flop when he checks it to you as he's likely to do. Chances are he folds here and even if he doesn't your hand isn't really that bad.

[Knight_Owl 0]

Well every poker player has there own "style" first of all I dont like the raise especially in mp3, I'm sure the player who had position on you put u on a draw and sure made you pay for it I would throw away all this junk, and especially out of position! YUCK! And at a tight table, I would tend to call w/ suited connectors in LP and espcially in a loose passive table which there is hardly any raising yet lots of calling pre-flop.And table seems purty tight when you mentioned that its usally "HU" then what range did you put this player on especially on that board you really think ur goign to push that player off especially w/ that Board?Once again everyone has there own style. Jst my 2 cents GL 2 U

[CobaltBlue 662]

I think folding > raising, AINEC.I think these really low s-connectors are better for multi-way pots than stealing. "Implied odds" are pretty much crap HU in Limit.I understand that the BB is tight, but I'd much rather be in there with something like JTs-98s if I'm raising s-connectors for a steal. When the pots are short-handed, big cards are much more valuable than s-connection.Also, the CO and Buttons stats are pretty significant here. Ideally, you're hoping to get 4 folds (or take it down on the flop with a c-bet HU)...and that might be asking too much a majority of the time. In my experience, you'll pick up a cold call or 3-bet a lot of the time...particularly if you've been playing fairly LAG. And, the range of hands that cold-call and 3-bet you is going to be pretty far ahead.(The rest of the hand is fairly standard.)

[Abbaddabba 0]

It depends as much on the CO and Button as it does the big blind. The biggest problem is that you're raising 45s from MP3, you're probably opening with a large % of your hands and people will notice it, making them 3bet you more often.If i had puffmethepot and nicodemus on the button and CO, i could see myself opening with 45s here.

[screech 0]

Youre thinking about this situation the right way (BB folds too much so you raise more), but I think you're taking it a bit too far. You should also have a good read on the other players left to act when you make this play.Also, I think raising 76s from this spot as a default is bad too. Occassionally raising it from the CO, and usually from the button will be better for your bottom line IMO.

[mrdannyg 274]

I think folding > raising, AINEC.I think these really low s-connectors are better for multi-way pots than stealing. "Implied odds" are pretty much crap HU in Limit.

this is what i always seem to forget when i hit raise

It depends as much on the CO and Button as it does the big blind. The biggest problem is that you're raising 45s from MP3, you're probably opening with a large % of your hands and people will notice it, making them 3bet you more often.If i had puffmethepot and nicodemus on the button and CO, i could see myself opening with 45s here.

As we've discussed, I don't 3-bet nearly as often as I should, and yet my PFR is above 12, so i'm opening a crapload of pots. I mentioned the big blind's stats, but i'm generally looking more at the guys behind me. It doesn't really matter what my "read" on the big blind is, so long as I have one, since i'll be able to use it to play the hand profitably from thereon if we get HU and i'm in position.i guess i'm seeing this as more of a slippery slope than anything else. if i start eliminating opening MP raises with connecting hands, my PFR probably drops to 10 or below, and i feel that's too low. i'm having a hard time 3-betting unknowns with stuff like 44 or AJo, or 3-betting a 17/10 type with KJ or something, even though i probably should be doing it.mostly, i'm just jealous of Abba's awesome 22/13-type stats, and i'm trying to emulate them. suggestions?

[Abbaddabba 0]

That's not all full ring though. There's 6 max mixed in to form those stats.:PFull ring (filtered for 8+ players dealt in), im 19/12.

i guess i'm seeing this as more of a slippery slope than anything else. if i start eliminating opening MP raises with connecting hands, my PFR probably drops to 10 or below, and i feel that's too low. i'm having a hard time 3-betting unknowns with stuff like 44 or AJo, or 3-betting a 17/10 type with KJ or something, even though i probably should be doing it.

Well, look at it like this. Your PFR is only a bit more than 10, and yet you're opening from MP3 with 45s. AJo is doing pretty damn well against your range, and pretty well against someone who's tighter than you too. I dont know how much PFR is so high, to be honest. Im definitely not a fan of 3betting small pairs...

[mrdannyg 274]

That's not all full ring though. There's 6 max mixed in to form those stats.:PFull ring (filtered for 8+ players dealt in), im 19/12.Well, look at it like this. Your PFR is only a bit more than 10, and yet you're opening from MP3 with 45s. AJo is doing pretty damn well against your range, and pretty well against someone who's tighter than you too. I dont know how much PFR is so high, to be honest. Im definitely not a fan of 3betting small pairs...

i generally filter for 7+, but i'm around 20.5/13.5, so i think i'm too high. i actually made an effort to fold some decent suited connectors and those types instead of opening from early or middle position and it was obvious pretty quickly that if i was missing anything by doing so, it wasn't much.once i get hands on people, i'll probably have no trouble keeping it close to 10 without trying to out-fancy myself, and then maybe i can mix in some trickery depending on extenuating circumstances as they arise.i thought of our discussions from the other thread about the FCP Corp today, because i logged on to Absolute and there was only 1 3/6 table, but 4 full 2/4 tables going, all of which broke up at pretty much the same time. i've never seen more than 1-2 of these going, so thought that was pretty weird.first session at 2/4 garnered a W$SD of 67% for a win rate of 16bb/100. i wish sessions were always like that.

[Winner 0]

i generally filter for 7+, but i'm around 20.5/13.5, so i think i'm too high. i actually made an effort to fold some decent suited connectors and those types instead of opening from early or middle position and it was obvious pretty quickly that if i was missing anything by doing so, it wasn't much.once i get hands on people, i'll probably have no trouble keeping it close to 10 without trying to out-fancy myself, and then maybe i can mix in some trickery depending on extenuating circumstances as they arise.i thought of our discussions from the other thread about the FCP Corp today, because i logged on to Absolute and there was only 1 3/6 table, but 4 full 2/4 tables going, all of which broke up at pretty much the same time. i've never seen more than 1-2 of these going, so thought that was pretty weird.first session at 2/4 garnered a W$SD of 67% for a win rate of 16bb/100. i wish sessions were always like that.

Can somebody give me a brief explanation of what these numbers mean that you guys quote all the time please? Thanks

[Zach6668 513]

Can somebody give me a brief explanation of what these numbers mean that you guys quote all the time please? Thanks

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=12767VP$IP/PFR%/AF

[mrdannyg 274]

Can somebody give me a brief explanation of what these numbers mean that you guys quote all the time please? Thanks

yeah, generally they're listed in the order like 20/10/2/1000the first number is VPIP - the percentage of hands you voluntarily put $ in the potthe second number is PFR - the percentage of the total hands that you raise preflopthe third number is AF - Aggression Factor. A formula that measures how often you bet or raise compared with calling. Not as straightforward as the others.fourth is number of hands you have on that person.other numbers like W$SD (Won $ at ShowDown) are explained in that thread better than I could.

[fckthis 0]

Suited connectors scoop you big pots with many players. I dont mind the occasional raise, but to me it seems -ev, unless you bank on your opponents folding most of the time preflop.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Danny - my friend says he had an unusual hand against you.He says you raise/capped 56s from early position, and capped the flop with a flush draw.Flop came QJ rag with two spades, turn was K of spades and river paired the rag. He just called the river bet thinking hte only legit hand based on preflop/flop action that he beat was AA.Could you post the HH? (he doesnt have tracker yet)

[mrdannyg 274]

Danny - my friend says he had an unusual hand against you.He says you raise/capped 56s from early position, and capped the flop with a flush draw.Flop came QJ rag with two spades, turn was K of spades and river paired the rag. He just called the river bet thinking hte only legit hand based on preflop/flop action that he beat was AA.Could you post the HH? (he doesnt have tracker yet)

Absolute PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $3/$67 playersConverterPre-flop: (7 players) Hero is MP1 with UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.Flop: (6.67SB, 3 players)BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, Hero caps, BB calls.Turn: (7.83BB, 2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.River: (9.83BB, 2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.Results:Final pot: 11.83BBAs you know, I'm trying to get away from raising hands like that preflop. I was running pretty well though, so I probably raised it here one position earlier than I'd have wanted to. Obviously i didn't notice the limper. Actually I wasn't even aware there was one until just now. With a limper I'll always just limp there.I thought your friend played preflop and the flop correctly, though i did think check/calling the flop and turn was pretty weak.I actually did play another memorable hand against him, where he made the significant mistake of pre-clicking. He was MP2 or so, and almost certainly had meant to open-raise, but got a limper. Since his pre-click told me he wanted to open-raise, i felt comfortable 3-betting with AJo. i know you and some other guys do that too and don't have a problem, but i simply disagree, and just think it should never be done.didn't notice anything else problematic or interesting, but it did seem like he was playing without reads, since he made steals or plays at people where he might not have known the necessary range without PT stats, though i don't know what he had, so it may have been correct.comments on the above hand are welcome, though as I said, the raise was an incorrect play i made due to multi-tabling. the cap on the flop was partially a free card play, and also an equity play since the pot was 3-way.

[Abbaddabba 0]

He doesnt have PT.He also lies... he said you capped preflop. (that was the justification he gave not to raise the river)

I actually did play another memorable hand against him, where he made the significant mistake of pre-clicking. He was MP2 or so, and almost certainly had meant to open-raise, but got a limper. Since his pre-click told me he wanted to open-raise, i felt comfortable 3-betting with AJo. i know you and some other guys do that too and don't have a problem, but i simply disagree, and just think it should never be done.

Im not sure what you mean.You 3bet if you think people are using the auto-raise buttons?

[mrdannyg 274]

He doesnt have PT.He also lies... he said you capped preflop. (that was the justification he gave not to raise the river)Im not sure what you mean.You 3bet if you think people are using the auto-raise buttons?

what i meant was in most situations if someone raises after a limp, i do not reraise AJo, giving them credit for a stronger hand than they'd open with. since he pre-clicked, and the limper was right before him (and took several seconds to act) it looked like he probably only had a hand of open-raising quality, and so i could 3-bet with AJ.if he thought i capped preflop, his play is justified, since he's gotta put me on AK, JJ-AA. though i probably cap AK and AA on that flop, so i don't know if his turn and river lines are optimal, though i can't recommend a better one.