If You Knew There Was God, A "god", Etc...

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think you've managed to prove that the Bible as literal, word-for-word of God is a bit far-fetched. Since I thought this before our conversation, we're on the same page

[crowTrobot 2]

There is evidence of a worldwide flood, period.

please provide a link describing evidence from an objective source (not misinformation posted on a creationist agenda site).

The ark is possible, especially given the fact that the amount of species that had to be collected were miniscule compared to the amount of species known today.

that sounds like something you made up, because even current creationist sites aren't that stupid. are you saying god created most of the species that exist or have ever existed on earth in the last 5000 years?

There is scientific evidence for a missing day in time.

the only possible evidence of that would be of major world-wide catastrophies all dating to the exact same instant in time a few thousand years ago, because that's what would happen if the earth stopped rotating. nothing of the sort exists.

Archaelogy has proven the existence of many things biblical, whether it be Babylon, The walls of Jericho being excavated and shown to have fallen outwards

there is evidence that some people/places in the bible existed. so what. fables are typically based in history - that doesn't make them literal truth (i believe the city scholars think is jericho was built on an active fault and was earthquake-prone).

The Temples built by Solomon

however this one happens to be a lie. if you do some research there is no accepted archaeological evidence for solomon's temple (just a relic or two that are proven modern fakes).

a gap in Egytptian history where, presumably the egyptians were basically wiped out

this is also a lie. there is an unbroken archeological record of egyptian society from throusands of years before the supposed flood continuous through today. there is no gap, and even if there were it's moronic to think that the exact SAME society with the same culture would restart after the flood if everybody died.

Scientific facts not known to man when the bible was written are strewn throughout the Bible

creationist website propaganda is not scientific fact. it is misinformation created to influence the ignorant. an interested intelligent person would do a little objective research and not blindly accept anything just because it supports what you already believe through faith. LMD, i think even you have at least enough intelligence to see through idiotic crap like this if you open your eyes. it doesn't have to change what you believe through faith, but at least you wouldn't have to make quite as big a fool of yourself.

[Canada 0]

I think you've managed to prove that the Bible as literal, word-for-word of God is a bit far-fetched. Since I thought this before our conversation, we're on the same page

Thank you for your agreement (and little clapping icon)I look forward to how Lois try's to reword his stance. Directly or indirectly.I sit excited in the anticipation of the LOLOLOL's and scorn

a gap in Egytptian history where, presumably the egyptians were basically wiped outthis is also a lie. there is an unbroken archeological record of egyptian society from throusands of years before the supposed flood continuous through today. there is no gap, and even if there were it's moronic to think that the exact SAME society with the same culture would restart after the flood if everybody died.

Doesn't it also strike you as strange that if such a gap existed <cough> <bollocks> <cough> that the Egyption culture remained the same.Some nice Egyptians living day to day, worshiping their Gods. Along comes the flood and wipes them out. In comes Noah's decendants who have never known of these old Egyption Gods and yet pick up where they left off! Wow, they forgot that God and flood thing quickly didn't they?EDIT: Ooops, you said that already

Scientific facts not known to man when the bible was written are strewn throughout the Biblecreationist website propaganda is not scientific fact. it is misinformation created to influence the ignorant. an interested intelligent person would do a little objective research and not blindly accept anything just because it supports what you already believe through faith. LMD, i think even you have at least enough intelligence to see through idiotic crap like this if you open your eyes. it doesn't have to change what you believe through faith, but at least you wouldn't have to make quite as big a fool of yourself.

This is similar to a post that Lois made a while back that made me realise that he is a Queen short of a Royal Flush. I demonstrated back then how hollow his claims were and he ran away with his tail between his legs

[gobears 0]

I think you've managed to prove that the Bible as literal, word-for-word of God is a bit far-fetched.

I've always thought this too - however, I do believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, but since humans have been involved with the process, this results in the usual muck ups here and there.It does cause a problem then - which parts are "true" and which parts are not. It really comes down to faith.

[Canada 0]

I've always thought this too - however, I do believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, but since humans have been involved with the process, this results in the usual muck ups here and there.

I thought that divinely inspired meant that God has 'helped' in the writing process and thus human influences eliminated.If God tells a person to write something do you not think he would ensure that what he asked to be written actually was?He doesn't strike me as a 'close enough' sort of dude

[speedz99 145]

I'm just....amazed that anyone still believes that the story of Noah's Ark is anything more than just a story meant to teach a lesson. Why do people feel the need to try and convince themselves it really happened, even though it is virtually impossible? It's a good story...an interesting read that warns of the dangers of leading an evil life. But anyone over the age of 7 should be able to see it for what it truly is.Anyone ever seen Joe Rogan's standup act on the subject?

[DonkSlayer 1]

I thought that divinely inspired meant that God has 'helped' in the writing process and thus human influences eliminated.If God tells a person to write something do you not think he would ensure that what he asked to be written actually was?He doesn't strike me as a 'close enough' sort of dude

Canada, you see a tree by a stream. It inspires you to write a poem. That's how I look at a lot of it.

[Canada 0]

Canada, you see a tree by a stream. It inspires you to write a poem. That's how I look at a lot of it.

Fair point as to inspiration, however the tree does not have a message that it wants unequivocally communicated.I think divine inspiration extends beyond simple inspiration.Also you have...2 Peter 1[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.(KJV to keep Lois happy)

[DonkSlayer 1]

Fair point as to inspiration, however the tree does not have a message that it wants unequivocally communicated.I think divine inspiration extends beyond simple inspiration.Also you have...2 Peter 1[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.(KJV to keep Lois happy)

I wouldn't argue that what the prophets said was open for interp, because it was already interpreted.The gospels aren't prophecy, nor is any of the NT except Revelations, right?Good think I'm keeping this thread going, Lois has disappeared.

[Loismustdie 0]

All of those "discrepencies" are not discrepencies at all, in that doctrine is not affected, and it actually lends more credibility to the Bible, meaning that A, it was written by many different people and B, they all gave an account of what they saw, as God told them to do so, and C, it was done accurately enough as to leave no question that it was in fact inspired by God. What you bring up is no different than if 20 people were to watch me bake a cake at 3. Half of them would arrive at 3:30, so there account would be different. 4 of them would get the day wrong. 15 or them would probabaly leave out an ingredient or 2 if asked what went in it, but all of them would in fact say a cake was baked, it was chocolate, it had frosting and we all enjoyed a piece, and you would not doubt for a second that in fact that did take place. See why it still comes diown to faith? Nice try, though.

Fair point as to inspiration, however the tree does not have a message that it wants unequivocally communicated.I think divine inspiration extends beyond simple inspiration.Also you have...2 Peter 1[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.(KJV to keep Lois happy)

I don't quite know what you are getting at here. Why is this a contradiction? It's not up for private interpetation, meaning, it says what it says, take it as is, don't change it. Prophesy wasn't by the will of man, but inspired by God. Obviously, this scripture destroys most religion, but isn't that always my Goal?

I thought that divinely inspired meant that God has 'helped' in the writing process and thus human influences eliminated.If God tells a person to write something do you not think he would ensure that what he asked to be written actually was?He doesn't strike me as a 'close enough' sort of dude

Still haven't proven that doctrine and the way Jesus brought is affected by mubers differing in counting the people, or if it was dark or not.

I wouldn't argue that what the prophets said was open for interp, because it was already interpreted.The gospels aren't prophecy, nor is any of the NT except Revelations, right?Good think I'm keeping this thread going, Lois has disappeared.

Occasionally, I must sleep.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I don't think you really dealt with the Ark, etc.How can you be a literalist but accept different interps by different writers in the Bible? Which one do you defer too?Sorry about the sleep thing, i wasn't trying to be a dck.

[Loismustdie 0]

please provide a link describing evidence from an objective source (not misinformation posted on a creationist agenda site).that sounds like something you made up, because even current creationist sites aren't that stupid. are you saying god created most of the species that exist or have ever existed on earth in the last 5000 years?the only possible evidence of that would be of major world-wide catastrophies all dating to the exact same instant in time a few thousand years ago, because that's what would happen if the earth stopped rotating. nothing of the sort exists.there is evidence that some people/places in the bible existed. so what. fables are typically based in history - that doesn't make them literal truth (i believe the city scholars think is jericho was built on an active fault and was earthquake-prone).however this one happens to be a lie. if you do some research there is no accepted archaeological evidence for solomon's temple (just a relic or two that are proven modern fakes).this is also a lie. there is an unbroken archeological record of egyptian society from throusands of years before the supposed flood continuous through today. there is no gap, and even if there were it's moronic to think that the exact SAME society with the same culture would restart after the flood if everybody died.creationist website propaganda is not scientific fact. it is misinformation created to influence the ignorant. an interested intelligent person would do a little objective research and not blindly accept anything just because it supports what you already believe through faith. LMD, i think even you have at least enough intelligence to see through idiotic crap like this if you open your eyes. it doesn't have to change what you believe through faith, but at least you wouldn't have to make quite as big a fool of yourself.

I never use creationist websites. I will however, give you scripture and deal with what I can. I noticed one thing you didn't mention was The story of the walls of Jericho collpapsing outward, being proven by archaeology, irrefutably so. I was not aware of the findings of Solomons temple being a fraud- if that's true that sucks. Alot of that sort of thing has gone on over the years and it irks me to know end. It only makes sense that less animals were here in the times of Noah. We could start with something as easy as cats and dogs- how many different cross breeds have shown up over the years? So, literally you could take 2 and 2 and thousands of years later still have the amount of different types we have now. Same with dogs, and you could go one further in that dogs origins are traced back to wild dogs, back to wolves, on and on, and all of the sudden you just need any old male and female dog. DNA would take over and you would still have years later many types of animal descendants of something with similar DNA but not quite the same, much like humans. This is where non- creationist desperately would like to take the Bible literally, because it would fit there agenda, but in my mind realistically you cannot do this. I have never done the research, but I wonder if you threw ot all fish and anything amphibious how many animals you would you really have to take? So many are crossbreeds that didn't even exist then, like a mule or zebra for example. As far as no proof of a worldwide flood? As much "proof" as there has been there is always dtractors that say whatever the finding is is no good, it could be this instead or this, which is fine, but the fact still remains that it could also be a worldwide flood. There is an empty spot in egyptian history that indicates a catostrophic event taking place- not much else I can say on that. I already did the scientific fact thing here- you know what I was told?" Well, that is up for interpetation." It doesn't matter that I can produce scriptures that talk of stars singing and NASA has recordings of just that, or that a scripture speaks of all nations being of one blood and that wasnt known till the last century, or of an empty space in the North, which has been proven at Mt. Palomar in california. Thats just a few, but whats the point? All that will be said is that it's up for discussion and interpetation because apparently reading and comprehension is not enough.

[Loismustdie 0]

I don't think you really dealt with the Ark, etc.How can you be a literalist but accept different interps by different writers in the Bible? Which one do you defer too?Sorry about the sleep thing, i wasn't trying to be a dck.

Oh,no, it's all good man!! I know you didn't mean anything by it. Look at my cake baking example- what exactly is affected if you and I get the time different? Nothing, and it actually gives more validity to you and I being 2 different people not collaborating. When it comes to the numbers, I know that they differ- in those cultures they counted eveything, except for money and property we don't care as much as they did- I couldn't tell you how many cans of tuna I have, they could. But, like any inventory, when accounted for by 2 different people, the numbers don't generally add up. I can accept that, it's normal- even human. The doctrine contained in it is not affected by this. So, lets change the challenge. Now, anybody try and find differences in what Jesus taught as far as a plan for salvation, how one gets to heaven, how one must live his or her life. Oh, and if you can find THAT the 100 dollars per is most dfeinitely back on.Crow, I am stll waking up, you did deal with Jericho, I apologize. That is fine, but it still corroborates that it happened.

[speedz99 145]

At some point won't you guys get tired of trying to explain things to someone who doesn't really try to understand or think about your points?Lois, I know you really think that you're winning this argument. That's the scariest thing of all.

[MDXS 0]

It only makes sense that less animals were here in the times of Noah. We could start with something as easy as cats and dogs- how many different cross breeds have shown up over the years? So, literally you could take 2 and 2 and thousands of years later still have the amount of different types we have now. Same with dogs, and you could go one further in that dogs origins are traced back to wild dogs, back to wolves, on and on, and all of the sudden you just need any old male and female dog. DNA would take over and you would still have years later many types of animal descendants of something with similar DNA but not quite the same, much like humans. This is where non- creationist desperately would like to take the Bible literally, because it would fit there agenda, but in my mind realistically you cannot do this. I have never done the research, but I wonder if you threw ot all fish and anything amphibious how many animals you would you really have to take? So many are crossbreeds that didn't even exist then, like a mule or zebra for example.

Quoted for bizarreness. I'm really getting a kick out of this thread. Keep it going guys.

[Loismustdie 0]

At some point won't you guys get tired of trying to explain things to someone who doesn't really try to understand or think about your points?Lois, I know you really think that you're winning this argument. That's the scariest thing of all.

Not really- it's an unwinnable argument. How many times have I said either you have faith or you don't, either you believe or you don't and that God accounted for both sides? Whether or not I win is irrelevant- it's more about doing my best so I can look God in the eye and say I tried.

Quoted for bizarreness. I'm really getting a kick out of this thread. Keep it going guys.

What's so bizarre about it? Are you saying that in fact we have the same amount of types of animals and or species as we did 5000 years ago? You would be hard pressed to find a scientist to go along with that one.

[Loismustdie 0]

At some point won't you guys get tired of trying to explain things to someone who doesn't really try to understand or think about your points?Lois, I know you really think that you're winning this argument. That's the scariest thing of all.

Furthermore, nothing they say is new- it's the same old stuff. You have to remember, I have been dealing with this stuff on some level for 25 years, whether I was attending church at the time or not- so, yeah, there will be times that something is said and I just ignore it, because it's tiresome. Sometimes the battle can be quite tiresome- actually, I seriously regret ever posting in this forum anything non- poker related because at this point it has become an obligation- I feel I must answer some of this stuff. That's why at times you may see a short answer here or there or intolerance for idiots, which I aplogize for but I ony human. I enjoy reading what Tim and Crow and Yorke have to say, I even enjoyed Smash when he bothered to show up once in awhile. The most fun that I have is with Matt, but we haven't clashed in awhile- at this point I think we agree to disagree, which is good. I believe in live and let live One thing that does bother me is that in the religous area of this forum we pretty much have non- religous people as the strongest, most well spoken individuals, which sucks, really bad. I hate more than you guys when another drone comes out of the woodworks to give his testimony on why God works wonders in his life- it does nothing to further the cause and just comes across as the simpleminded being deceived, which(as you have heard me state) is usually exactly what has happened.... I think that it is plain to see the fallacies in todays religion but that doesn't mean that the truth isn't somewhere, that behind all iof the lies there is a solid word of God. I often do not agree with taste in architect and design- that doesn't mean that the building is at it's foundation flawed, or that the very idea of having a bulding is flawed.

[crowTrobot 2]

At some point won't you guys get tired of trying to explain things to someone who doesn't really try to understand or think about your points?

obviously replies to lois aren't for his benefit, since this has been going on with him for almost a year now on this site. i think most people including myself just reply to counter on the slim chance the reply might enlighten someone else who happens to be reading. when i see creationist/flood etc. "evidence" posted in a public forum i feel compelled to reply, because as stupid as most of it is to an informed person, many more reasonable people than lois still believe parts of it just out of sheer ignorance of the facts. also a lot of this is just for mental exercise or pure entertainment

[Loismustdie 0]

obviously replies to lois aren't for his benefit, since this has been going on with him for almost a year now on this site. i think most people including myself just reply to counter on the slim chance the reply might enlighten someone else who happens to be reading. when i see creationist/flood etc. "evidence" posted in a public forum i feel compelled to reply, because as stupid as most of it is to an informed person, many more reasonable people than lois still believe parts of it just out of sheer ignorance of the facts. also a lot of this is just for mental exercise or pure entertainment

The funny thing is, I feel the same way about Crow. I respect where he is coming from and understand that while intelligent, his outlook is hampered by his lack of faith. I also post for the benefit of others, mostly because- and this is sad- even those who are taught the bible are generallly never taught to think, just to accept, so they have never really thought it through. Incientally, nobody has ever said a flood most definitely did not happen, and if they did they would be lying. The evidence that is there could most defintely point to a worlwide flood.

[crowTrobot 2]

I was not aware of the findings of Solomons temple being a fraud- if that's true that sucks.

yeah i recall the most recent was in the news a while back. an israeli antiquities dealer went to prison for forging among other things a tablet referring to solomon's temple, which would have been the only irrefuted evidence for it if he pulled it off (worth millions). the forgery was a work of art in itself, fooling many experts at first.

It only makes sense that less animals were here in the times of Noah. We could start with something as easy as cats and dogs- how many different cross breeds have shown up over the years?

here's your main mistake - breeds are not different species. humans have messed with a very small part of the genetic makeup of cats and dogs (among other domestic animals and plants) and altered their outward appearance, but the true genotype (total genetic makeup) has not been altered enough to make them into new species, nor can it be in such a short time. cats breeds are still cats and most/all can still interbreed. evolution into different species requires much more time.in fact there were certainly hundreds more species (probably thousands more if you include insects and invertebrates) 5000 years ago than now because so many have gone extinct due to man's influence. and of course your argument totally ignores that the majority of species known to have been on earth exist only in the fossil record.

I have never done the research

seriously then, how do you know you aren't wrong? if you did research objective sources you'd understand how embarrasingly full of crap you are on this subject. informed christians who still maintain their faith but are objective about creationism have had no choice but to consider evolution as "part of god's plan", the flood as a fable etc.

like a mule or zebra for example

a mule is not a species. a zebra is not a crossbreed.

As far as no proof of a worldwide flood? As much "proof" as there has been there is always dtractors that say whatever the finding is is no good, it could be this instead or this, which is fine, but the fact still remains that it could also be a worldwide flood.

it's not a matter of interpretation. all scientific evidence points against a world-wide flood ever happening. creationist "evidence" is just grasping desparately at straws.

There is an empty spot in egyptian history that indicates a catostrophic event taking place- not much else I can say on that.

well don't just say stuff - think about it for a minute. how could there be a "gap" if everybody died? it wouldn't be a gap, it would be a permenant dead end.

[crowTrobot 2]

his outlook is hampered by his lack of faith

in other words i choose not to brainwash myself to ignore the facts of the world around me?

Incientally, nobody has ever said a flood most definitely did not happen

actually every objective scientist who has ever studied the possiblity of a global flood has said it most definitely didn't happen. the only people who said it might have happened had a pre-existing creationist agenda.on the other hand if you are talking about *local* flooding that's a different story. there is geological evidence for some local flooding events that must have been truly spectacular, although with completely natural causes and relatively limited in scope.bye, heading over to cardplayer now. one of my favorite players is about to come back from the dead to make final table at mandalay (carlos)

[crowTrobot 2]

omg i jinxed him he was in solid 6th with 12 left. just went out 12th..

[Loismustdie 0]

yeah i recall the most recent was in the news a while back. an israeli antiquities dealer went to prison for forging among other things a tablet referring to solomon's temple, which would have been the only irrefuted evidence for it if he pulled it off (worth millions). the forgery was a work of art in itself, fooling many experts at first.here's your main mistake - breeds are not different species. humans have messed with a very small part of the genetic makeup of cats and dogs (among other domestic animals and plants) and altered their outward appearance, but the true genotype (total genetic makeup) has not been altered enough to make them into new species, nor can it be in such a short time. cats breeds are still cats and most/all can still interbreed. evolution into different species requires much more time.in fact there were certainly hundreds more species (probably thousands more if you include insects and invertebrates) 5000 years ago than now because so many have gone extinct due to man's influence. and of course your argument totally ignores that the majority of species known to have been on earth exist only in the fossil record. seriously then, how do you know you aren't wrong? if you did research objective sources you'd understand how embarrasingly full of crap you are on this subject. informed christians who still maintain their faith but are objective about creationism have had no choice but to consider evolution as "part of god's plan", the flood as a fable etc. a mule is not a species. a zebra is not a crossbreed.it's not a matter of interpretation. all scientific evidence points against a world-wide flood ever happening. creationist "evidence" is just grasping desparately at straws.well don't just say stuff - think about it for a minute. how could there be a "gap" if everybody died? it wouldn't be a gap, it would be a permenant dead end.

Everybody didn't die, just a buttload of soldiers,all the firstborn, God knows how many due to plague- they were not completely gone, but close. I never said that evolution did not occur-as a matter of fact I allowed for it in my Ark scenario. I posed the question what if there were not that many animals that were neccesary to take, becaus God knew that evolution would occur? Insectc? Incects can survive without land, and most insects would die within the 40 days anyway. My way still makes it possible without throwing out the notion as the Bible said it happened entirely. By faith Noah did what he did, by Faith I will give God the benefit of the doubt. Out of curiosity, if the Bible was written by different men over the course of hundreds of years, how was the flood spoken of in the New Testament if it wasn't common knowledge that it had happened? And if your answer is that the bible is a fraud and it was place there after the fact, why not get some of the numbers in the geneologies ight as well? Or change both accounts of Jesus tomb to line up exact? Why stop the lies there? Incidentally what I meant was I had never researched exactly how many animals would have to be on the Ark to ensure animal hierarchy would stay the same, and we would still have an animal kingdom as we know it. The fact is that it is possible, and for a person of faith that is all you would really need. But, you'renot, so it doesn't help. Have I ever sounded desperate? I am quite comfortable in my beliefs and with what I know to be true. It's why I take exception to the whole burden of proof thing- those who will be converted, will be converted, those who don't will answer to God, whther they like it or not. It's why I end each of these things with a smile on face, and go on my way. I have done my part.

[crowTrobot 2]

Everybody didn't die

in the flood? that's news to me.Out of curiosity, if the Bible was written by different men over the course of hundreds of years, how was the flood spoken of in the New Testament if it wasn't common knowledge that it had happened? because it was part of recorded jewish history (although not first appearing till something like 2000 years after the fact). that doesn't make it any less a fable. jewish people of new testament times would have believed it because they didn't have the information available to know any better. you don't have that excuse.

[Loismustdie 0]

in the flood? that's news to me.Out of curiosity, if the Bible was written by different men over the course of hundreds of years, how was the flood spoken of in the New Testament if it wasn't common knowledge that it had happened? because it was part of recorded jewish history (although not first appearing till something like 2000 years after the fact). that doesn't make it any less a fable. jewish people of new testament times would have believed it because they didn't have the information available to know any better. you don't have that excuse.

When I speak of a Gap in Egyptian history I am speaking about the times when Isreal was in captivity to Egypt and what God did to get them out of captivity, and the Gap coinciding with that- I see now what the confusion was. There is actually no evidence against the flood, just an overall belief that it is improbable- that, in and of itself does not make it so.