If You Knew There Was God, A "god", Etc...

[DonkSlayer 1]

When it comes to Cathlocism, I could not agree more. Now, you want a backwards religion, start there.

Mmmm. Yeah, except there was only one Church during the Crusades and Inquisition.Oh, and Protestantism grew from German Princes wanting to get their lands back from the Church, not some holy epiphany.

[MDXS 0]

When it comes to Cathlocism, I could not agree more. Now, you want a backwards religion, start there.

Heh....and even they accept evolutionary theory.

[Loismustdie 0]

of course that's the reaction when the change requires abandoning common sense.no it's stupid to assume the author had an understanding of genetics or whatever you're implying.

He didn't have a clue as to the understanding of genetics- I doubt that was even a word yet. That's the point!! How could he have known to write that, not to mention the other scientific facts in Job that he wrote of pre the existence of science. Did you read that chapter yet?

[Loismustdie 0]

Mmmm. Yeah, except there was only one Church during the Crusades and Inquisition.Oh, and Protestantism grew from German Princes wanting to get their lands back from the Church, not some holy epiphany.

Yeah, and I am the only person who is aware that catholic hierarchy locked up the Bible for a time(referred to as the dark ages) not to mention other books they did not agree with, until a time when a King decided that the Bible was not for only priests and should not be kept secret from the people and had it translated to a language the commom person understood- his name was King James. Catholocism is about as wrong as it gets,and lets just start with the whole idea of the pope and work our way through it. Throughout the New Testament there is prophecy of what catholocism would teach and that it was wrong, yet Catholics look at these scriptures and just kind of space or something- I don't get it. The only explanation that this religion is even tolerated is that it's generational- my father before me, his father before him, etc. My wife was raised Catholic, and do you known why she stopped going to church? They were told that they were to believe the Bible, that it was the word of God, but it was rarely used in church, and when she read it herself, well, even a fool could see that what was taught to her wasn't in this text, and that pissed her off. She actually wanted to learn of the Bible, but they don't even bother- that would get in the way of the lies.

[Canada 0]

He didn't have a clue as to the understanding of genetics- I doubt that was even a word yet. That's the point!! How could he have known to write that, not to mention the other scientific facts in Job that he wrote of pre the existence of science. Did you read that chapter yet?

Crows point is that the author was not talking of genetics, you are simply putting a spin on an passage to fit your rant.Science in the bible. Give me a break. We've been thorough this before and you came out looking like an idiot then.Don't do it again please.

[crowTrobot 2]

He didn't have a clue as to the understanding of genetics- I doubt that was even a word yet. That's the point!!

no, the point is that there's no implicit indication that he was referring to a genetic relationship between human races. that's just wild assumption on your part.

[Loismustdie 0]

no, the point is that there's no implicit indication that he was referring to a genetic relationship between human races. that's just wild assumption on your part.

Read the chapter, and you will realize that it is exactly what I said it is. That chapter is about God challenging Job, and basically telling him what he would have no idea of. Trust me, read it, and then get back to me. I don't think that you could say that it's wild speculation, and if you do I would like to know why.

[crowTrobot 2]

Read the chapter, and you will realize that it is exactly what I said it is.

i'm objective and you're not, so don't assume what i'll realize. i have read it.

[MDXS 0]

i'm objective and you're not

I have a feeling this will go over like a truckful of dead babies...

[Petoria 0]

I have a feeling this will go over like a truckful of dead babies...

smelly?

[Canada 0]

There absolutely should be only one christian church!! I have been saying that for months!! Why do you think Matt and I went at it so much- because we agreed? Alot of people, when presented with an idea or ideology that requires change of oneself to become something else immediately say cult. It's a knee jerk reaction, and really just points to a lack of understanding of what is being dealt with, which is understandable. So, a scripture that says all nations are of one blood is stupid- it's not brilliant, it's simple science that was not known at that time- the man who wrote that had no way of knowing it, yet, he wrote it. Why is that stupid? Why would ou immediately just label it stupid? Look it up, Acts 17:26. Read Job 38- it's full of references to things Job would have no idea of. Read it, and explain to me why it's stupid.

Acts 17[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:Job.38[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[8] Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?[9] When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,[10] And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,[11] And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?[12] Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;[13] That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?[14] It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.[15] And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.[16] Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?[17] Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?[18] Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.[19] Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,[20] That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?[21] Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?[22] Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,[23] Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?[24] By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?[25] Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;[26] To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;[27] To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?[28] Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?[29] Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?[30] The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.[31] Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?[32] Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?[33] Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?[34] Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?[35] Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?[36] Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?[37] Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,[38] When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?[39] Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,[40] When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?[41] Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.Which particular scientific facts do you see in the above that would be unknown at the time?Feel free to list any others you believe exist as well.

[crowTrobot 2]

I have a feeling this will go over like a truckful of dead babies...

why? lmd admits he's not objective about the bible

[MDXS 0]

why? lmd admits he's not objective about the bible

I figured someone would jump on your claim of objectivity, but really I felt like using my 9th grade English teacher's favorite expression.

[Loismustdie 0]

Acts 17[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:Job.38[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[8] Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?[9] When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,[10] And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,[11] And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?[12] Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;[13] That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?[14] It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.[15] And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.[16] Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?[17] Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?[18] Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.[19] Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,[20] That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?[21] Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?[22] Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,[23] Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?[24] By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?[25] Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;[26] To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;[27] To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?[28] Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?[29] Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?[30] The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.[31] Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?[32] Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?[33] Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?[34] Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?[35] Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?[36] Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?[37] Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,[38] When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?[39] Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,[40] When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?[41] Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.Which particular scientific facts do you see in the above that would be unknown at the time?Feel free to list any others you believe exist as well.

Break it down for you tommorow. Really, this is sadly easy.

i'm objective and you're not, so don't assume what i'll realize. i have read it.

Yes, but you can't claim you cannot comprehend. What could treasures of the snow mean? Could it mean that snow has some of the same properties as fertilizer? Or is he talking about actual treasure, pirate style? Obviously, the correct interpetation could be something else, fine.... what, then? Mine is not good enough, I get that- you tell me what he is telling Job when he says that. Sorry I can only do one tonite, let's just start with one and work our way through it.

[Canada 0]

Yes, but you can't claim you cannot comprehend. What could treasures of the snow mean? Could it mean that snow has some of the same properties as fertilizer? Or is he talking about actual treasure, pirate style? Obviously, the correct interpetation could be something else, fine.... what, then? Mine is not good enough, I get that- you tell me what he is telling Job when he says that. Sorry I can only do one tonite, let's just start with one and work our way through it.

[22] Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,[23] Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?Well it would seem, reading it in context, that the treasures of the snow are the same treasures found in hail.This seems to rules out the fertilizer type effect as hail would hardly be considered benefitial to a crop.A reasonable alternative suggestion could be as simple as the fact that they are both frozen water, which fits nicely with the reserving against the time of trouble.Also the positive effects of late spring snows were known to farmers well before scientists bothered to look into it, so to go back to Biblical times, where there would have been a much higher ratio of agriculturally 'employed' people, it would be expected that this would be common knowledge.So this 'unknown scientific fact' has 2 problems1) The wording of said 'fact' is highly interperatable2) If you choose it to mean what you want it to it is not describing anything that wouldn't have been known at the time. ie It would be known not unknownLooking forward to the rest of your 'unknown scientific facts'

[Loismustdie 0]

[22] Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,[23] Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?Well it would seem, reading it in context, that the treasures of the snow are the same treasures found in hail.This seems to rules out the fertilizer type effect as hail would hardly be considered benefitial to a crop.A reasonable alternative suggestion could be as simple as the fact that they are both frozen water, which fits nicely with the reserving against the time of trouble.Also the positive effects of late spring snows were known to farmers well before scientists bothered to look into it, so to go back to Biblical times, where there would have been a much higher ratio of agriculturally 'employed' people, it would be expected that this would be common knowledge.So this 'unknown scientific fact' has 2 problems1) The wording of said 'fact' is highly interperatable2) If you choose it to mean what you want it to it is not describing anything that wouldn't have been known at the time. ie It would be known not unknownLooking forward to the rest of your 'unknown scientific facts'

Yes, the positive effects were known, by some, but not WHY- also, hail has some of the same properties as far as I know. You are completely missing the point. Got to go to work, I will do the rest during the Open Tonite.

[crowTrobot 2]

Yes, the positive effects were known, by some, but not WHY

the passage doesn't say why. what the heck are you talking about?it's all poetic/lyric anyway, which is largely symbolic. all you can do is guess at the actual meaning. attempting to read modern scientific knowledge into it to support the divinity of the bible is moronic.

[Loismustdie 0]

the passage doesn't say why. what the heck are you talking about?it's all poetic/lyric anyway, which is largely symbolic. all you can do is guess at the actual meaning. attempting to read modern scientific knowledge into it to support the divinity of the bible is moronic.

Your missing the point- the passage says treasures in the snow. If it's NOT talking about what I say it is talking about, which is now backed up with scientific evidence, then what is he talking about? When he is talking about springs in the sea, which Jacques Cousteau discovered and is now backed by that brand of science, which happens to be in the depths of the ocean where no man could have gone, then.. if he's not talking about springs in the sea, what is he talking about? If 8 through 11 is not talking about the fact that the ocean has boundaries, which Job could not have known, not for a fact, then what is it talking about?You interpet it. These are not symbolic messages- they are pretty straightforward. I still haven't seen any good reason why " I have made all nations of man one blood " isn't ACTUALLY saying that. Which one of us is trying to spin the bible at this point?

[Canada 0]

Yes, the positive effects were known, by some, but not WHY- also, hail has some of the same properties as far as I know. You are completely missing the point. Got to go to work, I will do the rest during the Open Tonite.

Wow. Is English your second language?Farmer sees snow on field.Field grows better.Farmer concludes there must be benefits in the snow.Your interpretaion of Job describes nothing more. It does not describe WHY snow/hail is benfitialNo unknown science there. Point not missed.0/1

[Canada 0]

When he is talking about springs in the sea, which Jacques Cousteau discovered and is now backed by that brand of science, which happens to be in the depths of the ocean where no man could have gone, then.. if he's not talking about springs in the sea, what is he talking about?

OK. Next one.Let's assume he is talking about fresh water springs in the Ocean discovered by Jacques.Do you know how Jacques knew to look for them?Read "The Phoenicians" by Herm & Morrow. I've told you this before, yet you have to ignore it because you need these ridiculous claims to bolster your crutch.The Phoenician town of Aradus had put down leather pipes into fresh water springs in the ocean which provided the town with a source of water. When?1000BC0/2

[Canada 0]

If 8 through 11 is not talking about the fact that the ocean has boundaries, which Job could not have known, not for a fact, then what is it talking about?You interpet it.

Next![8] Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?[9] When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,[10] And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,[11] And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?Boundaries to the sea?Its called a coast. You see it every time you stand on land and look at the ocean.I guess you are assuming that Job didn't know what was over the horizon and would know there were coasts over the 'other side' tooFrom the perspective of someone who believes that, the oceans break forth and expand towards this individual. It stops when it reaches the coast upon which this individual stands and the waves are stayed. The bars and doors are in place.There are no unknown facts in there.There is nothing in those verses that talk of unknown coasts or complete surrounds to oceans.You just want/need it to.0/3

[Canada 0]

I still haven't seen any good reason why " I have made all nations of man one blood " isn't ACTUALLY saying that.

Next!'Of one blood' is alluding to the fact that, according to God, we are all descendants of Adam and hence all brothers and sisters.Now any model of a population that grows by reproduction requires an ultimate parent couple, its simple logic. Therefore to suggest that we are all ultimately related is not anything big or clever.However the bible suggests that this started ~4000BC with a human man and a woman, and restarts again ~2600BC as we are all descendants of NoahScience tells us that this is laughable, and the genetics of which you claim are foretold in the Bible actually prove the claim to be in error.So you have the interesting situation where the bible predicts a scientific fact that would prove the bible to be wrong.... "and God disappears in a puff of logic"0/4Actually, with this one, where it is not God talking to Job, what is your mechanism for the information getting into the Bible?According to you the author does not have the knowledge required and doesn't claim to be conversing with the almighty.

[Loismustdie 0]

OK. Next one.Let's assume he is talking about fresh water springs in the Ocean discovered by Jacques.Do you know how Jacques knew to look for them?Read "The Phoenicians" by Herm & Morrow. I've told you this before, yet you have to ignore it because you need these ridiculous claims to bolster your crutch.The Phoenician town of Aradus had put down leather pipes into fresh water springs in the ocean which provided the town with a source of water. When?1000BC0/2

I don't have a problem with that- it's still written of in the bible as well, Job could not have known it to be a fact. He wrote is as such.

Next!'Of one blood' is alluding to the fact that, according to God, we are all descendants of Adam and hence all brothers and sisters.Now any model of a population that grows by reproduction requires an ultimate parent couple, its simple logic. Therefore to suggest that we are all ultimately related is not anything big or clever.However the bible suggests that this started ~4000BC with a human man and a woman, and restarts again ~2600BC as we are all descendants of NoahScience tells us that this is laughable, and the genetics of which you claim are foretold in the Bible actually prove the claim to be in error.So you have the interesting situation where the bible predicts a scientific fact that would prove the bible to be wrong.... "and God disappears in a puff of logic"0/4Actually, with this one, where it is not God talking to Job, what is your mechanism for the information getting into the Bible?According to you the author does not have the knowledge required and doesn't claim to be conversing with the almighty.

No, it's just saying we are all of one blood. Taken in context, that's all it's saying. Job, with the science available could not have proven this at the time.

Next![8] Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?[9] When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,[10] And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,[11] And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?Boundaries to the sea?Its called a coast. You see it every time you stand on land and look at the ocean.I guess you are assuming that Job didn't know what was over the horizon and would know there were coasts over the 'other side' tooFrom the perspective of someone who believes that, the oceans break forth and expand towards this individual. It stops when it reaches the coast upon which this individual stands and the waves are stayed. The bars and doors are in place.There are no unknown facts in there.There is nothing in those verses that talk of unknown coasts or complete surrounds to oceans.You just want/need it to.0/3

No, what actually holds the sea in is gravity- gravitational poles to be exact, aided by the moon. The coast has nothing to do with it, in that the oceans are higher in the middled- if it wasn't for the poles it would spill over. Job could not have known that.

Wow. Is English your second language?Farmer sees snow on field.Field grows better.Farmer concludes there must be benefits in the snow.Your interpretaion of Job describes nothing more. It does not describe WHY snow/hail is benfitialNo unknown science there. Point not missed.0/1

The he would have written, Snow is good. He didn't. He worded it in a different way. Can you not read english?

[crowTrobot 2]

I don't have a problem with that- it's still written of in the bible as well, Job could not have known it to be a fact. He wrote is as such.

job (on the extremely slim chance the story is based on an actual person) couldn't have "written" job obviously. the book of job is a parable/poem based on jewish fable that would have been first written down well after the fact by unknown author(s).

No, what actually holds the sea in is gravity- gravitational poles to be exact, aided by the moon. The coast has nothing to do with it, in that the oceans are higher in the middled- if it wasn't for the poles it would spill over. Job could not have known that.

there is no such thing as a gravitational "pole". there is only the moon's tidal effects (which are pretty minimal) and normal bulging at the equator due to the earths rotation, which affects both land and sea and doesn't change the oceans borders much. i have no idea what you're talking about or how you even begin to get any of that out of a simplistic poetic passage. one of us is clearly insane, and i don't think it's me

[Loismustdie 0]

job (on the extremely slim chance the story is based on an actual person) couldn't have "written" job obviously. the book of job is a parable/poem based on jewish fable that would have been first written down well after the fact by unknown author(s).there is no such thing as a gravitational "pole". there is only the moon's tidal effects (which are pretty minimal) and normal bulging at the equator due to the earths rotation, which affects both land and sea and doesn't change the oceans borders much. i have no idea what you're talking about or how you even begin to get any of that out of a simplistic poetic passage. one of us is clearly insane, and i don't think it's me

Job also could have been inspired by God- also, lets assume that the moons gravitational pull did not control the oceans borders, what would happen? It is a very simplistic passage, it is basically God telling Job " Who do you think you are exactly? " and then giving him a list of things, which he wrote down- some of which are poetic and some of which are straightforward, some of which he would not have known at that time. Exactly what is the problem with this? Which one of us approaches the Bible with prejudice? I'm not really sure which one of us it is anymore. These are just a few passages- I have got more. I like the back and forth though, it's fun.