How Hard Do You Push With Bottom Set After The Flop?

[Al Smooth 0]

Personally, I push pretty hard unless there's three to a flush or straight on the board. I have an example I may share later, but I have been having this discussion with my friends for the past 24 hours. So, What do you do???

[Zach6668 513]

NL or Limit?Cash or Tourney?What stakes?Reads on players?Etc...Usually I will push hard with it, however.

[No_Neck 0]

if you get beat with a set in holdem on the flop it is just bad luck. I usually push hard.

[Actuary 3]

Personally, I push pretty hard unless there's three to a flush or straight on the board. I have an example I may share later, but I have been having this discussion with my friends for the past 24 hours. So, What do you do???

I push even harder when the board is draw heavy, generally.

[Al Smooth 0]

Well, to the first reply...The example that was regarding myself was in a 10-20 NL Cash game on PP last night. However I also remember playing the same hand in a slightly different way in a WPT event so my cash game and tournament strategy regarding this topic is generally the same. I can post the hand history of the hand and will for discussion purposes at some point.But the point of the post is for you. If you could, answer all of your questions. Do you play bottom set differently in a Cash game? In a tournament? Differently at Low level NL vs. Higher Stakes NL? Let me know...I'm very interested as to people's reacions as to how they play this sort of powerful yet vulnerable hand.

[gooch 0]

I would need more information as certain situations would dictate differnent strategies I think

[Zach6668 513]

Well, for the most part, I'd consider bottom set a monster hand.There is so much that can vary from hand to hand that it's hard to generalize, but I'll give it a shot.Limit Cash - I'll generally bet/raise with it all the way. I may consider a stop and go from the flop to the turn or a screw play or something, but most of the time, I'll just fire away. Of course, depends on draws, how many opponents. As for flop play, depends on whether there is a preflop raise or not, and my relative position to this raiser to determine whether I lead or c/r, etc.NL Cash - n/aNL Tourney - If I'm first to act I'll usually check the flop and see if I'm going to get any action from anyone. However, this again depends on the texture of the board, as you mentioned it. It also depends on who's a LAG, who's weak tight, etc... I just played a hand where I flopped bottom set with 55 and checked it to a retard who pushed all in with like Ace high for 3000 into a pot of 400, so you ever really know what can happen. You are much more of a tourney expert than I am, so I'd like to hear how you play it. I really don't play MTT's at the moment, and am more of a limit guy. Of course, the level of opponent is way different at the WPT than at the $22 SNG's...- Zach

[MasterLJ 0]

|<------------------------------- this hard ---------------------------------->|

[SunDrop 0]

I wait until the turn to raise/check raise. No one who has anything reasonable, draw or otherwise, is going away on the flop, at least not in limit. In NL it depends on if there are big cards on a hand with a preflop raise. I love to make someone with an ace think that I think they are pushing queens on a board with an ace, and I am just trying to steal.

[Zach6668 513]

I wait until the turn to raise/check raise. No one who has anything reasonable, draw or otherwise, is going away on the flop, at least not in limit. In NL it depends on if there are big cards on a hand with a preflop raise. I love to make someone with an ace think that I think they are pushing queens on a board with an ace, and I am just trying to steal.

If they aren't going anywhere on the flop, why are you waiting until the turn?

[Al Smooth 0]

You are much more of a tourney expert than I am, so I'd like to hear how you play it. I really don't play MTT's at the moment, and am more of a limit guy. Of course, the level of opponent is way different at the WPT than at the $22 SNG's...- Zach

Just because someone has a larger bankroll than you doesn't mean they're a "Tourny Expert", I'm still learning just like all of us. As for me, I always believe tha a Set is good at the flop if there's nothing more than a draw on board. I may FEEL better about top set, but bottom set is just as powerful to me. At one of the WPT events, I knocked out Rob Mirachi when I called his 4x pre flop raise from the button with 33. I flopped a 3 and took all his chips when we both got them all in on the turn. I forget exactly how it happened, but I think we both checked the flop (rainbow no Str8 draw), he bet the turn, I raised, he re-raised, I pushed, he called, he lost with KK. Classic trap. Last night was different, I won a lot of money on PP when I flopped a set of 3's. Evaluate as you will.Here's the HH from a cash game from last night:***** Hand History for Game 3935917564 *****0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Mon Apr 10 03:52:07 EDT 2006Table Table 96981 (No DP) (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10Seat 1: AAAKing007 ( $2182)Seat 2: state4781 ( $4889.81)Seat 3: MikeNutzell ( $2181)Seat 4: Stripe1111 ( $2392.63)Seat 5: beringsea ( $767.50)Seat 6: cashmerejak ( $2100)Seat 7: SpikeWork ( $393.50)Seat 8: pmarco805111 ( $470)Seat 9: Al_Smooth ( $5126)Seat 10: gamblegambel ( $5225)AAAKing007 posts small blind (10)state4781 posts big blind (20)** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Al_Smooth [ 3h, 3c ] MikeNutzell folds.Stripe1111 folds.beringsea calls (20)cashmerejak folds.SpikeWork folds.pmarco805111 folds.Al_Smooth raises (60) to 60gamblegambel folds.AAAKing007 folds.state4781 raises (305) to 325beringsea folds.Al_Smooth calls (265)** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jc, 3d, 5c ] state4781 bets (444)Al_Smooth raises (2000) to 2000state4781 raises (4112) to 4556Al_Smooth raises (2801) to 4801Al_Smooth is all-In.state4781 calls (8.81)state4781 is all-In.** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4d ] ** Dealing River ** : [ Ts ] Creating Main Pot with $9806.62 with state4781Creating Side Pot 1 with $236.19 with Al_Smooth** Summary **Main Pot: $9806.62 | Side Pot 1: $236.19 | Rake: $3Board: [ Jc 3d 5c 4d Ts ]AAAKing007 balance $2172, lost $10 (folded) state4781 balance $0, lost $4889.81 [ Qs Qc ] [ a pair of queens -- Qs,Qc,Jc,Ts,5c ]MikeNutzell balance $2181, didn't bet (folded)Stripe1111 balance $2392.63, didn't bet (folded)beringsea balance $747.50, lost $20 (folded) cashmerejak balance $2100, didn't bet (folded)SpikeWork balance $393.50, didn't bet (folded)pmarco805111 balance $470, didn't bet (folded)Al_Smooth balance $10042.81, bet $5126, collected $10042.81, net +$4916.81 [ 3h 3c ] [ three of a kind, threes -- Jc,Ts,3h,3c,3d ]gamblegambel balance $5225, didn't bet (folded)

[srblan 0]

I push it hard (hopefully you have position, because it's much easier to get value). I'd prefer if my opponent showed some strength preflop, in which case I will raise a bet or bet if it's checked. Bottom set can be vulnerable in all sorts of ways you can't necessarily anticipate. Jam it and hope they put you on top pair.

[BeanGW 0]

Wow Smooth:... wish I had the bankroll for that game. Kinda nice when guys like State4781 just give you their chips. I mean, an overpair is often times good with this board, but still, why was he betting the farm on it when there were 5 hands you could have had that have him way behind? This looks very well played on yr part, considering you had position. You have to be aggressive with a set (and I agree with Actuary that you have to be even more aggressive with a draw friendly board in NL.)

[SunDrop 0]

If they aren't going anywhere on the flop, why are you waiting until the turn?

So I can stay hidden and pounce when the bets get bigger...otherwise everyone is going to check to me on the turn.

[Zach6668 513]

So I can stay hidden and pounce when the bets get bigger...otherwise everyone is going to check to me on the turn.

Without seeing specific situations, you are probably missing out on a lot of value from the players who will peel the flop very light, and fold to the big bets on the turn.- Zach

[iggymcfly 0]

I usually play really aggressive with bottom set regardless of the situation. With top set, you have the board so dominated that sometimes you have to slow-play and hope someone catches up, but with bottom set, you can usually fire away, and someone with top pair or even top two will be right there with you. My favorite line with bottom set is probably bet/call the flop, check/raise the turn, as once people get that much money invested, they usually hate to throw their hands away in either LHE or NLHE.

[oldirtyharry 0]

Smooth:Do you make that call on the reraise if you both aren't so deep stacked? Usually I won't call anything greater then 6bb if I know I am likely only drawing to a set. Very nice hand though, interesting to see that people overplay their over pairs at ALL levels.

[The Nuts 0]

With a possible draw on the board and me having a low set, I bet the pot to force out draws. If I force everybody out, then I probably wasn't going to get action to begin with.

[MasterLJ 0]

With a possible draw on the board and me having a low set, I bet the pot to force out draws. If I force everybody out, then I probably wasn't going to get action to begin with.

ding ding ding.I play all sets the same. If someone has a higher set, I'm going to pay them.I play TAG in ring games and SAG (Smart Aggressive... not tight, not loose, somewhere in between) when I play HU. This means I bet like crazy anyway, why stop when I have a monster? If I believe I'm going to get action and no likely draws hit on the turn I'm generally going to push.