These People Are Sick

[keith crime 8]

Funeral fanatics cross the line of free speech April 3, 2006BY NEIL STEINBERG SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST AdvertisementRev. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., almost sound made up. Like a hypothetical case some law professor concocted to get students thinking about the First Amendment.Here you have a minister and his handful of nut job followers whose spiritual life centers around intense hatred of gays, so much that they believe the Iraq war is divine punishment for the United States tolerating homosexuality. They express this belief by picketing the funerals of fallen American soldiers. They shout and wave their "GOD HATES FAGS" signs, intruding on this intensely personal time of grief for military families. It's all too real; you may have heard about them by now.The question is: Should this be legal?So far 14 states have said "No," including Indiana and Wisconsin. Illinois has been trying to craft a law that would ban protest within 200 feet of cemeteries and funeral homes, but hit a snag -- how could striking workers picket? -- just one of the thorny legal difficulties of trying to prevent a particular message from being delivered to a particular group in a free society.What makes Phelps so offensive? It isn't his message, per se: that this nation is damned because it tolerates gays. You can hear that, watered down, from 1,000 pulpits every Sunday. If you include Phelps' beliefs in the continuum of hate speech, along with the Klan and the Nazis and the rest, he doesn't particularly stand out.What makes Phelps so unacceptable is not what he says, but to whom he says it -- grieving families in the act of burying their loved ones. An act so cruel, so offensive that even the most extreme free speech advocate -- me, for instance -- who believes you should be able to stand at Daley Plaza at noon and set the American flag on fire, using the Bible as kindling, thinks it is over the line.But what to do? At some point free speech can become harassment. You can't picket a private home at 1 a.m. If I am some goofball in love with a girl named Donna, my right to spring out at her with a big poster declaring "MARRY ME DONNA!" can be restricted by a judge.That's what should happen in Phelps' case. I think a judge should find a way to gag him. I don't see why targeted military families (Phelps announces which funerals he's going to picket ahead of time on his Web site, www.god hatesfags.com, and if you share even a little sympathy with him, go look at the site and see the ultimate destination of the train you're riding on) can't receive the same legal protection that harassed ex-girlfriends have access to. They should be able to get restraining orders; perhaps local law firms might want to step in and offer help, pro bono, to lift the burden of going to court from the grieving families.This might work better than general bans at the statehouse level. Because those will only shift Phelps' focus, and the Westboro Baptist Church will start showing up at outdoor weddings or kindergarten picnics. The law is mighty, but it has limits. We can't chase after every lunatic who wants to violate human decency in a perversely unique fashion. Frankly, I'm tempted to suggest that the true solution is -- how shall we say? -- supra-legal, and involves baseball bats and ax handles. But that would be wrong.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Funeral fanatics cross the line of free speech April 3, 2006BY NEIL STEINBERG SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST AdvertisementRev. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., almost sound made up. Like a hypothetical case some law professor concocted to get students thinking about the First Amendment.Here you have a minister and his handful of nut job followers whose spiritual life centers around intense hatred of gays, so much that they believe the Iraq war is divine punishment for the United States tolerating homosexuality. They express this belief by picketing the funerals of fallen American soldiers. They shout and wave their "GOD HATES FAGS" signs, intruding on this intensely personal time of grief for military families. It's all too real; you may have heard about them by now.The question is: Should this be legal?So far 14 states have said "No," including Indiana and Wisconsin. Illinois has been trying to craft a law that would ban protest within 200 feet of cemeteries and funeral homes, but hit a snag -- how could striking workers picket? -- just one of the thorny legal difficulties of trying to prevent a particular message from being delivered to a particular group in a free society.What makes Phelps so offensive? It isn't his message, per se: that this nation is damned because it tolerates gays. You can hear that, watered down, from 1,000 pulpits every Sunday. If you include Phelps' beliefs in the continuum of hate speech, along with the Klan and the Nazis and the rest, he doesn't particularly stand out.What makes Phelps so unacceptable is not what he says, but to whom he says it -- grieving families in the act of burying their loved ones. An act so cruel, so offensive that even the most extreme free speech advocate -- me, for instance -- who believes you should be able to stand at Daley Plaza at noon and set the American flag on fire, using the Bible as kindling, thinks it is over the line.But what to do? At some point free speech can become harassment. You can't picket a private home at 1 a.m. If I am some goofball in love with a girl named Donna, my right to spring out at her with a big poster declaring "MARRY ME DONNA!" can be restricted by a judge.That's what should happen in Phelps' case. I think a judge should find a way to gag him. I don't see why targeted military families (Phelps announces which funerals he's going to picket ahead of time on his Web site, www.god hatesfags.com, and if you share even a little sympathy with him, go look at the site and see the ultimate destination of the train you're riding on) can't receive the same legal protection that harassed ex-girlfriends have access to. They should be able to get restraining orders; perhaps local law firms might want to step in and offer help, pro bono, to lift the burden of going to court from the grieving families.This might work better than general bans at the statehouse level. Because those will only shift Phelps' focus, and the Westboro Baptist Church will start showing up at outdoor weddings or kindergarten picnics. The law is mighty, but it has limits. We can't chase after every lunatic who wants to violate human decency in a perversely unique fashion. Frankly, I'm tempted to suggest that the true solution is -- how shall we say? -- supra-legal, and involves baseball bats and ax handles. But that would be wrong.

You're fine as long as you realize this guy is a nutbag and not in mainstream Christianity.

[keith crime 8]

You're fine as long as you realize this guy is a nutbag and not in mainstream Christianity.

I'm not holding him against christians but it would be nice if they spoke out against what he is doing

[DonkSlayer 1]

I'm not holding him against christians but it would be nice if they spoke out against what he is doing

They certainly are. When they came to my hometown (Lynchburg, VA, Falwellville) and protested on the property of the city High School, a ton of them got arrested and Liberty issued a statement saying they didn't support the effort. LIBERTY U, of all places. Although, it isn't like they're bombing/murdering/kidnapping...

[Petoria 0]

True, these people do have issues.I really don't understand how people can hate someone just bc of their sexual orientation.In my opinion, these radicals are no better than the ones that send children into a crowded market with a bomb strapped around their waist to kill Jews.If these "Christians" are willing to protest at a funeral, then how long is it before they turn violent, in general?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Although, it isn't like they're bombing/murdering/kidnapping...

There for sure would be some murdering and kidnapping going on if they were to come to the funeral of one of my loved ones. I'm probably the biggest pacifist and advocate of non-violence that you'll ever meet, but if this guy tried to do that to me or my family or a friend's family, I'd go Jack Bauer on him (or Chuck Norris or John Basedow or whatever you like).

[keith crime 8]

how is some soldier who fought in iraq relevant to the other issue? they are mad

[DonkSlayer 1]

NH Yorke.Yeah, I think they could find a gay bar or something if they really wanted to protest...having a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the military seems hardly good enough to protest at a hero's funeral....Petoria, I think you want them to start bombing so you have something else to complain about.ALTHOUGH, I do believe they have the right to do it, however horrific and inappropriate their message is. I think the family members should be shown great leeway by the law, however, when they punch them in the face, which would be the least of what I would do..

[Petoria 0]

Petoria, I think you want them to start bombing so you have something else to complain about.

Go f*** yourself.

[timwakefield 68]

I'd go Jack Bauer on him (or Chuck Norris or John Basedow or whatever you like).

I'd go Bruce Lee on those mother****ers.

[mrdannyg 274]

Rev. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., almost sound made up.

if anyone has read Paul Phillips' blog recently, he posted an article where the atheist article discussed something similar.that article refers to mainstream christianity instead of these nutjobs, which i know are not the same.amazing to think what people can convince themselves.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Go f*** yourself.

LOL I fcking blurted a huge guffaw at this one, nh.

[bigkg 0]

how is some soldier who fought in iraq relevant to the other issue? they are mad

They are protesting him because he fought for a country that accepts gays.

[herokid7 0]

Let me say something on this as a Christian person. Some people, including some Christians, are idiots. I'm not a protestor. I don't protest the homosexuality, abortion clinics, or anything else. I think as Christians, we should show those people love. I do believe that gay people are living in sin, but they are people, and God loves them, Christians should too. The people referenced in the article are idiots, and while I'm a pacifist myself, I would love to punch those guys that do that. That's not showing the love of Chirst to people that need it. That's just being self-righteous jerks. Keith got it right. Those people are sick.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Absolutely disgusting. Whether a person is a Christian or not, I also agree that it's important to remember that these guys do not demonstrate what true Christianity is about. These idiots are showing the opposite.

[MDXS 0]

One of the members on Hannity and Combs. Not often that I agree with Hannity.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

One of the members on Hannity and Combs. Not often that I agree with Hannity.

Yeah, okay, that person's sane. I don't believe in capital punishment, but can we at least get doctors to make these people sterile.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

What the hell? Is that smile painted on her or something? Goodness, what a sick mind.

[copernicus 0]

What the hell? Is that smile painted on her or something? Goodness, what a sick mind.

They better watch out for these loonies, there is a good chance they will turn violent, hopefully on themselves. Its even more discouraging to realize that they arent that much further over the line than some of the forum posters.

[DonkSlayer 1]

They better watch out for these loonies, there is a good chance they will turn violent, hopefully on themselves. Its even more discouraging to realize that they arent that much further over the line than some of the forum posters.

We say this outloud about muslim fanatics too, right????

[Farnan 0]

We say this outloud about muslim fanatics too, right????

Religious fanaticism is dangerous in any form.