in nl cash games, do you buy in for the max?

[justblaze 0]

If you're good enough it doesn't matter.  TJ Cloutier played a lot of years on short buy-ins, and survived.  Doyle Brunson always likes to have the most money on the table.

it DOES matter. if you are good enough you can make money anyways, just not as much. you are getting the TJ reference from PL and NL holdem, but he also notes that these were during his 'broke years'. this implies he was buying short out of necessity, not out of choice. im sure he does not buy in short now.

[ChuckSty 0]

although i believe whole heartedly in buying in for the max and even reloading and i know for a fact it is the most statisitical advantageous position to be in i think the bottom line is that if you look at the game of poker psychologically you will see that some people really do play better short stacked. My belief is that this is because they actually play tight aggressive as opposed to loose/passive when they have more chips. Strange yes, but oddly enough it's true. The psychology of poker, weird shit man

[Abbaddabba 0]

If you're going into every high stakes games assuming you're the best player, you're going to be sorely disappointed. You would need incredibly certain knowledge of your superiority to forego the opportunity that the hypothetical situation i mentioned affords you. If your 'critical evaluation' in this thread is any indication, more often than not, you're going to be the table's fish. That's all im going to say about this, at least to you. But i encourage you to share your views on poker with as many people as possible, and hopefully influence their play while you're at it.

[justblaze 0]

I'm also extremely sarcastic at times, but I think that, especially online (where things can much easier be misunderstood), you have to take a look at what you're writing and ask yourself just how harsh you sound.  You have some good posts, but general courtesy is still something that I'm a big fan of, despite how sarcastic I can be at times.  Your argument that you "have studied this game from many different aspects extensively" is fine.  I never claimed to be an expert and actually just consider myself an above average amateur.  I never take any disagreements personally until they start sounding unecessarily critical (as I felt yours was).  As far as your last couple sentences go, I think you misunderstood me when I said "tearing apart." I don't mind if someone inserts comments all along a post like you did.  I actually find it easier to read and understand when people do that.  By "tearing apart" I meant verbally attacking.  That, I'm not a big fan of.

ok, i guess the easiest way to settle this then is this: i apologize if my comments seemed to be a personal attack on you. they were not meant to be construed this way. hopefully you and other readers can take both my and your comments and evaluate them critically, and perhaps gain something from them. I know that i engage in these debates not to insult other people, but to learn and test my own knowledge. We think we know things, and only when we are forced to explain and defend our knowledge do we truly find out what we know. If i thought i knew everything i wouldnt bother posting here. i know i dont know everything. i learn every day. from here, from RGP, and from playing. It takes a strong mind to be able to say, i was wrong, this is correct, and i feel i have learned how to do it. maybe it is this part of me that wants everyone else to learn, to get better. maybe i feel like if you are sitting at the final table of the WSOP someday, you might use something i said, and that will make it all worthwhile. If i ever become really successful at poker, which i am currently trying to do within the constraints of having a 9-5 job, it will be in large part to the knowledge i have gained from the debates and discussions i have taken part in here and elsewhere. thanks for listening,Justblaze.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I'm also extremely sarcastic at times, but I think that, especially online (where things can much easier be misunderstood), you have to take a look at what you're writing and ask yourself just how harsh you sound. You have some good posts, but general courtesy is still something that I'm a big fan of, despite how sarcastic I can be at times. Your argument that you "have studied this game from many different aspects extensively" is fine. I never claimed to be an expert and actually just consider myself an above average amateur. I never take any disagreements personally until they start sounding unecessarily critical (as I felt yours was). As far as your last couple sentences go, I think you misunderstood me when I said "tearing apart." I don't mind if someone inserts comments all along a post like you did. I actually find it easier to read and understand when people do that. By "tearing apart" I meant verbally attacking. That, I'm not a big fan of.

ok, i guess the easiest way to settle this then is this: i apologize if my comments seemed to be a personal attack on you. they were not meant to be construed this way. hopefully you and other readers can take both my and your comments and evaluate them critically, and perhaps gain something from them. I know that i engage in these debates not to insult other people, but to learn and test my own knowledge. We think we know things, and only when we are forced to explain and defend our knowledge do we truly find out what we know. If i thought i knew everything i wouldnt bother posting here. i know i dont know everything. i learn every day. from here, from RGP, and from playing. It takes a strong mind to be able to say, i was wrong, this is correct, and i feel i have learned how to do it. maybe it is this part of me that wants everyone else to learn, to get better. maybe i feel like if you are sitting at the final table of the WSOP someday, you might use something i said, and that will make it all worthwhile. If i ever become really successful at poker, which i am currently trying to do within the constraints of having a 9-5 job, it will be in large part to the knowledge i have gained from the debates and discussions i have taken part in here and elsewhere. thanks for listening,Justblaze.

Fair enough. Good luck at the tables.

[dbrent2 0]

My little cash game around home is a 25-50 cent blind no limit. I usually buy-in for $20 or $40, depends who is in the game. Last night I made about $580 (net). There are some true gamblers in this game, and if they crack me, I don't lose that much. They buy-in (and rebuy) for around $50-$100. I know how they play, I don't give them a chance to catch a card and win alot of money from me. They call everything, so having a big buy-in does not make sense to me in this game. You can't make plays on them, and you can't get them off bottom pair or inside draws, so going all-in doesn't have the scare effect it should. So, when I play them, I don't slow play my hands, but I also don't put all my chips at risk, because I know they are going to call.Now, I will buy-in for the max at a brick-n-morter casino or online. Chip power is much more useful there then in my home game...

[justblaze 0]

I'm also extremely sarcastic at times, but I think that, especially online (where things can much easier be misunderstood), you have to take a look at what you're writing and ask yourself just how harsh you sound. You have some good posts, but general courtesy is still something that I'm a big fan of, despite how sarcastic I can be at times. Your argument that you "have studied this game from many different aspects extensively" is fine. I never claimed to be an expert and actually just consider myself an above average amateur. I never take any disagreements personally until they start sounding unecessarily critical (as I felt yours was). As far as your last couple sentences go, I think you misunderstood me when I said "tearing apart." I don't mind if someone inserts comments all along a post like you did. I actually find it easier to read and understand when people do that. By "tearing apart" I meant verbally attacking. That, I'm not a big fan of.

ok, i guess the easiest way to settle this then is this: i apologize if my comments seemed to be a personal attack on you. they were not meant to be construed this way. hopefully you and other readers can take both my and your comments and evaluate them critically, and perhaps gain something from them. I know that i engage in these debates not to insult other people, but to learn and test my own knowledge. We think we know things, and only when we are forced to explain and defend our knowledge do we truly find out what we know. If i thought i knew everything i wouldnt bother posting here. i know i dont know everything. i learn every day. from here, from RGP, and from playing. It takes a strong mind to be able to say, i was wrong, this is correct, and i feel i have learned how to do it. maybe it is this part of me that wants everyone else to learn, to get better. maybe i feel like if you are sitting at the final table of the WSOP someday, you might use something i said, and that will make it all worthwhile. If i ever become really successful at poker, which i am currently trying to do within the constraints of having a 9-5 job, it will be in large part to the knowledge i have gained from the debates and discussions i have taken part in here and elsewhere. thanks for listening,Justblaze.

Fair enough. Good luck at the tables.

oh i dont need luck. its a skill game. ok theres my rounders quote for the day. the special features blow, by the way. 29$ down the drain.

[TeeSludge 0]

how is the game there? ive never been, but heard its pretty good

Very soft and easy to beat. During the week there are a lot of regulars but the weekend is a beautiful time to go. The 2/5 is a little tougher but not too bad.. a little out of my bankroll for right now.They have been spreading a 5/10 on the weekends because it has been so busy.

[jayistheman 0]

yeah... the 2/5 is above my bankroll as well... maybe ill jet down there one weekend to check it out.....if its any softer than the borgata, im gonna need to take a suitcase to carry my money home

[TeeSludge 0]

Let me know if you do decide to play there. I will be there I am sure... usually there Thursday thru Sunday nights.

[jayistheman 0]

will do... might not be for a while though, cuz i try to avoid going during classes.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am torn on what is the correct strategy here. I have seem some players buy in for half of the max and do quite well. Usually these guys play pretty aggressively and attempt to double up. I have also seen guys buy in for the max and do well. Do you feel that buying in for less than the max displays a weak image and will cause ppl to attempt to bully you often? I see both sides. The god side of buying in for less is calling on draws. You know if it is a 25 NL room and you buy in for 10.00 and the flop is 6 7 K and you are holding a flush or straight draw you might not want to risk all your money into a big bet but with less money you might be willing to do it. The reverse side is if you arer a better player you are minimizing your profits. A big if.... :shock:

[custom36 4]

Here's what I do, because I'm probably playing on the softest site on the internet:The max buy-in for the .25/.50 game is $50 on Noble. I buy-in for some strange amount like 33.46. Just a superstition for me I guess, but I usually walk away after a few hours with $100-150.

[elkang 0]

I have a lot of definitive points to say about this in live games -- which this thread is not about.For online play, I won't say which is better... but I will say that your typical or optimal strategy are different based on your stack size. I don't buy much into more complicated reads based on your chips - the chips speak for themselves for any decent player.I buy in typically a medium stack at the table - which works out to be just over half the max at the sites/limits/tables I play at. I of course regret it when I get the nuts. So perhaps, I should play at lower limits and a larger stack - this would be more in line with my live play.

[Guest]

My little cash game around home is a 25-50 cent blind no limit. I usually buy-in for $20 or $40, depends who is in the game. Last night I made about $580 (net). There are some true gamblers in this game, and if they crack me, I don't lose that much. They buy-in (and rebuy) for around $50-$100. I know how they play, I don't give them a chance to catch a card and win alot of money from me. They call everything, so having a big buy-in does not make sense to me in this game. You can't make plays on them, and you can't get them off bottom pair or inside draws, so going all-in doesn't have the scare effect it should. So, when I play them, I don't slow play my hands, but I also don't put all my chips at risk, because I know they are going to call.Now, I will buy-in for the max at a brick-n-morter casino or online. Chip power is much more useful there then in my home game...

As others have said here... If you know they're going to call, and you are the favorite, you want as much money in as possible. This arguement makes no sense. If you think you are good enough to consistently beat the game, assuming you have bankroll for it, you should always buy in with the max amount. I wont go into an extensive breakdown because i think others covered it pretty well here.

[Guest XXEddie]

unless you cant afford it ALWAYS buy in for maxif you cant afford it.....you should be playing at that high of level

[koolromeo 0]

i think some of you guys are misunderstanding a few things about a live nl cash game. it usually doesn't matter if u buy in for the max or not if your goal is not to be short stacked, because unless the game is just starting you will probably be severely shortstacked even when buying in for the max. the reason being is that there is usually a max buy in like $300. if it's mid afternoon or later, there will probably be at least 2 players with over $500 in front of them. maybe $1500. shortstacked is more relevent in tournament play than in cash games. unless your willing to say the magic words, "all in"' with your max buy in then u don't need it. i've played lots of no limit and those words are rarley said when there are hundreds of dollars in fron of everyone. maybe once every two hours unless someone has the nuts.

[Vade 0]

Buy in for the max, though you still may be way behind a couple big stacks, you should be ahead of the people they've been beating up

[lilput 0]

You have to buy in for the max for a few reasons.1.) You want enough chips to be able to put people all in. There will be some stacks at your table that are deeper than the max buy in but there will also be a lot that aren't2.) You want a max buy in so that you have enough chips to get people to fold draws. If you don't even have enough chips to keep people from getting the odds to call you down because you won't bet enough then you know you need more chips.3.) Since there will be stacks that are deeper than the max buy in you want to be able to maximize the amount you will win if you do go all in. So the max buy in is great for that.4.) Also there is a slight psychological advantage for a max buy in IMO. Depending on the limits if you come to a table and already have half that table covered it makes the low stacks a little worried IMO. Besides if you pick up a few pots suddenly your stack is over the max buy in and new people to the table don't know how much you bought in for, they become even more worried.When it comes down to it though, you buy in for the max to maximize your profits.

[omnic0n 0]

Why to always buy for the MAX!PokerStars Game #1237092071: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2005/02/19 - 00:05:19 (ET)Table 'Kajam III' Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: Johnny_Felix ($644.60 in chips)Seat 2: Abram ($153 in chips)Seat 3: omnic0n ($426.30 in chips)Seat 4: vinnieg515 ($139.10 in chips)Seat 5: SHANI ($529.45 in chips)Seat 6: shane4555 ($60 in chips)Seat 7: Tommie ($423.90 in chips)Seat 8: keithfrancis ($270.05 in chips)Seat 9: 1Longboarder ($178.30 in chips)omnic0n: posts small blind $2vinnieg515: posts big blind $41Longboarder: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to omnic0n [7d 7h]SHANI: raises $12 to $16shane4555: foldsTommie: calls $16keithfrancis: calls $161Longboarder: foldsJohnny_Felix: foldsAbram: foldsomnic0n: calls $14vinnieg515: folds*** FLOP *** [3s 7c 7s]omnic0n: checksSHANI: bets $28Tommie: raises $28 to $56keithfrancis: foldsomnic0n: calls $56SHANI: folds*** TURN *** [3s 7c 7s] [9c]omnic0n: checksTommie: bets $351.90 and is all-inomnic0n: calls $351.90*** RIVER *** [3s 7c 7s 9c] [Qc]*** SHOW DOWN ***omnic0n: shows [7d 7h] (four of a kind, Sevens)Tommie: mucks handTommie is sitting outomnic0n collected $912.80 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $915.80 | Rake $3Board [3s 7c 7s 9c Qc]Seat 1: Johnny_Felix folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: Abram (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: omnic0n (small blind) showed [7d 7h] and won ($912.80) with four of a kind, SevensSeat 4: vinnieg515 (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 5: SHANI folded on the FlopSeat 6: shane4555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: Tommie mucked [Qh Qd]Seat 8: keithfrancis folded on the FlopSeat 9: 1Longboarder folded before Flop