Qq Preflop, Do What?

[Bubba83 0]

$5 MTT on UB.Blinds 50/100UTG has 5,000 in chips and limps in.UTG+1 goes all in for 250 total.Folds to me in MP, I have 4,000 in chips.I re-raise to 1,000.Folds to UTG, who raises an additional 1,400 on top of my 1,000.He hasn't played a hand like this yet, and usually has looser raising standards than he should preflop, Like raising pot preflop with A 10 off UTG, etc... So the limp re-raise seemed very uncharacteristic.I don't really think calling is an option... What should we do?

[Mercury69 3]

All-in, baby!

[shpaget 0]

$5 MTT on UB.Blinds 50/100UTG has 5,000 in chips and limps in.UTG+1 goes all in for 250 total.Folds to me in MP, I have 4,000 in chips.I re-raise to 1,000.Folds to UTG, who raises an additional 1,400 on top of my 1,000.He hasn't played a hand like this yet, and usually has looser raising standards than he should preflop, Like raising pot preflop with A 10 off UTG, etc... So the limp re-raise seemed very uncharacteristic.I don't really think calling is an option... What should we do?

I probably call anyway, but that is probably major spewage on my part....but I like calling and making sure no Ace/King hits flop (and I'm less frightened of a king). It may be a leak in my game, but I can't see me being good enough to ever folding here.Unless he's an utter maniac he's obviously not worried about you pushing back all-in. And looking at it like that, I have a hard time thinking he's got anything but bulls. But, here's the dilemma that may show I'm wrong.In these $5 MTT's at UB I see a lot of people in YOUR position make that raise with A8s...and Mr. UTG may think you're one of those guys, and may think his A9s is good...or his eights.What's your image here?What do you think he thinks you have?With the things I've seen in UB $5 tourneys, anything is possible.

[copernicus 0]

Your raise to 1000 is probably a bit on the large side, which makes this a more difficult play. If I had only committed 500 to the pot I would find it pretty easy to lay down, but with 3800 or so in the pot and 3000 behind its nearly impossible to fold Qs. When I have a monster and there is a small stack behind me that has enough chips to qualify as a raise if he pushes, I will often limp hoping to trap whoever comes in thinking thats the end of the betting since ive shown weakness.Thus it wouldnt suprise me at all to find him with the big 3 hands. However, most of those Im ahead of, and if he's a weak player I might even have him pair over pair.Even though you are "oop" for a stop and go, I wouldnt dismiss smooth calling here (and with a smaller raise from me and reraise from him would prefer calling). You have little FE preflop, but you may pick up some on the flop. If he checks or leads, you push and he calls from ahead, you are no worse off than pushing preflop. If he calls from behind with anything but AK you are no worse than pushing preflop. If he has AK and its a rag flop you may avoid him seeing the last two cards.If I were first to act I would definitely stop and go. 2d to act makes it more marginal between pushing preflop and stop and go.

[Bubba83 0]

Is folding ever an option? The thing that really confused me is how small he raised. This play to me looks a lot stronger than a limp-reraise all-in that I'm used to. With those there is no question, I always call with QQ. This is different, a smaller stack has gone all in, I've re-raised, and he still comes over the top for a small amount, not all in. As I said before he has opened UTG or from any position with quite marginal hands that could be dangerous for him, but I hadn't yet seen the limp re-raise. These are all warning signs in my opinion, but we still can't consider folding?Oh, and if I hear one more thing about "Oh it's a $5 MTT they could have any 2 cards here", i'm going to kill someone, this excuse is OVERUSED and usually way off base, if you're going to give me a reason to make a play please use logic and don't revert to this idiotic line everytime.

[mrdannyg 274]

Your raise to 1000 is probably a bit on the large side, which makes this a more difficult play. If I had only committed 500 to the pot I would find it pretty easy to lay down, but with 3800 or so in the pot and 3000 behind its nearly impossible to fold Qs. When I have a monster and there is a small stack behind me that has enough chips to qualify as a raise if he pushes, I will often limp hoping to trap whoever comes in thinking thats the end of the betting since ive shown weakness.Thus it wouldnt suprise me at all to find him with the big 3 hands. However, most of those Im ahead of, and if he's a weak player I might even have him pair over pair.Even though you are "oop" for a stop and go, I wouldnt dismiss smooth calling here (and with a smaller raise from me and reraise from him would prefer calling). You have little FE preflop, but you may pick up some on the flop. If he checks or leads, you push and he calls from ahead, you are no worse off than pushing preflop. If he calls from behind with anything but AK you are no worse than pushing preflop. If he has AK and its a rag flop you may avoid him seeing the last two cards.If I were first to act I would definitely stop and go. 2d to act makes it more marginal between pushing preflop and stop and go.

what is the benefit to a stop and go here?getting Kings to fold on an ace-high flop only, or do you think AK is a possibility also (in which case its more obvious)?

[copernicus 0]

what is the benefit to a stop and go here?getting Kings to fold on an ace-high flop only, or do you think AK is a possibility also (in which case its more obvious)?

As I said orginally, I think AK is most likely, 16:12 over KK, AA

[therrinn 0]

Oh, and if I hear one more thing about "Oh it's a $5 MTT they could have any 2 cards here", i'm going to kill someone, this excuse is OVERUSED and usually way off base, if you're going to give me a reason to make a play please use logic and don't revert to this idiotic line everytime.

Umm, no. I, and I'm sure most others, will vary my play based on the types of opponents I expect to meet at different buyins. In a $5 MTT, they could have any 2 cards there. As for it not being logical, thats crap as well. What someone means when they say that is the following1) its a $5 dollar MTT, where I generally expect weaker play than in higher buyins.=>2) The range of cards that someone can do this with is much larger than I would normally assign, since it could be someone who knows little about poker and thinks that 55 or AJ is the nuts. =>3) Based on the larger range of hands I assign to my opponent, I should make this play with QQ.This is not an idiotic line to take at all.

[Bubba83 0]

Umm, no. I, and I'm sure most others, will vary my play based on the types of opponents I expect to meet at different buyins. In a $5 MTT, they could have any 2 cards there. As for it not being logical, thats crap as well. What someone means when they say that is the following1) its a $5 dollar MTT, where I generally expect weaker play than in higher buyins.=>2) The range of cards that someone can do this with is much larger than I would normally assign, since it could be someone who knows little about poker and thinks that 55 or AJ is the nuts. =>3) Based on the larger range of hands I assign to my opponent, I should make this play with QQ.This is not an idiotic line to take at all.

You're wrong. This guy would have RAISED initially coming in with any hand I consider to be marginal. This was a new play for him and it screamed strength. You can't write players off just because they are in a $5 MTT for not having premium hands. They will get premium hands just as much as people in the bigger buy-in events and you still have to watch for sticky situations. You can't just write off decisions because "oh its $5 mtt ill call everytime here" That's the worst thing you could possibly do.I respect some of the advice here I get on my hands but I can't stand when someone falls back on "Make this play because its a $5 MTT" because they can't think of any other good reasons. And I get this line a lot. Maybe I should just be lying about the buy-in to get people to actually think about the situation and give better advice.

[gobears 0]

You're wrong. This guy would have RAISED initially coming in with any hand I consider to be marginal. This was a new play for him and it screamed strength. You can't write players off just because they are in a $5 MTT for not having premium hands. They will get premium hands just as much as people in the bigger buy-in events and you still have to watch for sticky situations. You can't just write off decisions because "oh its $5 mtt ill call everytime here" That's the worst thing you could possibly do.I respect some of the advice here I get on my hands but I can't stand when someone falls back on "Make this play because its a $5 MTT" because they can't think of any other good reasons. And I get this line a lot. Maybe I should just be lying about the buy-in to get people to actually think about the situation and give better advice.

It's one of the factors to consider (the buy-in) and you can't ignore it - all of therrinn's points are valid. Many tourney players will drop down to a lower$ MTT and "nutbar" and make plays that they wouldn't normally make. It's like a freeroll to them.In this case, if you never saw him limp from UTG before and had been at his table a long time or had good notes about him from other tourneys which also pointed to the conclusion that he only limps/reraises with monsters - then folding the Q's becomes more viable.But since this is a $5 MTT I would push.

[Bubba83 0]

I'm not advocating folding here. I didn't have notes on him from another tourney or anything. I had been at the table for a long time though and he never limp re-raised anyone. He was loose preflop, so he'd limp but if someone would raise he'd just call, not push over the top with anything. Also, if he had like two broadways or a pocket pair he was betting like 3.5x preflop whether he was first in the pot or not. This play looked a lot different to me than the marginal hands he played and I got to see at showdown.Buy-In can be a factor but you have to take all of the other information into account before you consider it imo. You can't just write a play off as correct because of the size of the buy-in.

[Vick12 0]

You're wrong. This guy would have RAISED initially coming in with any hand I consider to be marginal. This was a new play for him and it screamed strength. You can't write players off just because they are in a $5 MTT for not having premium hands. They will get premium hands just as much as people in the bigger buy-in events and you still have to watch for sticky situations. You can't just write off decisions because "oh its $5 mtt ill call everytime here" That's the worst thing you could possibly do.I respect some of the advice here I get on my hands but I can't stand when someone falls back on "Make this play because its a $5 MTT" because they can't think of any other good reasons. And I get this line a lot. Maybe I should just be lying about the buy-in to get people to actually think about the situation and give better advice.

BubbaI think you are missing what therrinn and others are saying. I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't look out for potential sticky situations, I think what therrinn and others are saying is...in a $5 you are more LIKELY to run into donkeys than you are in bigger buy ins. There are MANY donks who will limp their small pair, get raised and rather than fold (or call if the raise isn't too big) they will say "F#$% It" and jam or reraise w/ their pair they can't get off of. I don't think it's just "Well it's $5 buy in...blast any good hand". I think it's more along the lines of...if he is indeed a donk, he likely doesn't limp AA or KK in that spot. Bubbs...always go with YOUR READ! If you think this isn't the average donk and the play smells fishy...by all means let the hand go. Then either pat yourself on the back when he flips over the aces (remember the other guy is all in..you WILL know his hand) or break your mouse in frustration as he flips over 88!!!On this point...I have been playing a little less lately and watching better players than me play. (Personal funk that I am in...i tend to get out of them by playing less and watching others more...thats just me!) I have watched PMJackson21 play a few events the last few days. Anything from a $100 rebuy to the $11 rebuy...Anyway, it is AMAZING how much worse the play was at his table at the $10 rebuy than his $100 rebuy. Not that there isn't bad play at the higher level, but you rarely see the donkey stuff you see at the $5 level...A level which I play WAAAAAAY more than the $50+ levels.If it were me...I jam the rest of my chips in...if he has me beat congrats...if not then I am likely going to have my hand hold up...double up to over 8K in chips and most important...NOW YOUR ARE IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION TO MAKE A RUN!!! That can't be lost here...it's been said ad nauseum how important it is to make the FT and top 3. In this case you have all but 2 hands DOMINATED...you don't get in this spot all the time in tourney's...take it and run!Just my take!

[shpaget 0]

Is folding ever an option? The thing that really confused me is how small he raised. This play to me looks a lot stronger than a limp-reraise all-in that I'm used to. With those there is no question, I always call with QQ. This is different, a smaller stack has gone all in, I've re-raised, and he still comes over the top for a small amount, not all in. As I said before he has opened UTG or from any position with quite marginal hands that could be dangerous for him, but I hadn't yet seen the limp re-raise. These are all warning signs in my opinion, but we still can't consider folding?Oh, and if I hear one more thing about "Oh it's a $5 MTT they could have any 2 cards here", i'm going to kill someone, this excuse is OVERUSED and usually way off base, if you're going to give me a reason to make a play please use logic and don't revert to this idiotic line everytime.

If you actually read, and understood, my post you would see that I was thinking from UTG's perspective.Frankly I think folding is a very good option here and I think a very good player would fold here.I simply stated that I don't think I'm good enough (or confident enough) to make this fold...every time.And, yes, even donkeys get bulls....the $5 buyin simply makes it more likely that you are dealing with a weaker player, which brings more hands into play...not ANY two cards (I didn't say that), but it does broaden the range, like it or not.But, like I said, not only am I thinking about the possibilities of his hands, I'm also thinking about what he thinks about you...and the possibility is he is a strong player and thinks that you may not be, again because of the $5 buyin thing. That is, he is putting you on a wider range of hands, and therefore, his range of hands is wider. The fact is I've played $1, $5, $50, $100 and $1500 buyin tourneys, and cashed in all of them...you see bad plays in all...you see MORE bad plays at the lower levels, much more...and there are some things you ONLY see in the lower levels.

[Bubba83 0]

If he was a player that paid attention, he'd know that I had to have a top tier hand there. I had been very tight so far because the players on my left were too loose and I was always out of position when I'd raise PF. We really don't know what his perception of me is though, because he might not be the kinda guy who even thinks about how i'm playing.

[therrinn 0]

Vick summed up my line very well. Its not that I don't believe that he has aces or kings. Its just that at a $5 dollar buyin I think they will have worse hands often enough for me to make this call. I play mainly 180 person $20 sitandgos. Its my rule that I won't fold QQ,KK,AA, or AK preflop. This is after a sample of over 500 of these tournaments. I simply see people making plays with far worse hands, that I'm confident that in the long run I'm making the right play by going all the way with these hands. My other consideration is that this is an online tournament where I'm generally going to be shortstacked based on low starting chips and a fast blind structure. I am going to push my strong hands here because I need the chips and I need them to be good. If my QQ is beat, oh well, I'll go enter another tournament. The structure of the tournament doesn't allow me the luxury of being able to fold premium hands preflop, short of truly extraordinary situations. Finally, I frankly find it very rude for you to come here with a question, get replies, and then insult the people who are giving you their opinons, and imply that in the future you will start lying to us in your questions because you don't like the answers we give.

[Bubba83 0]

Finally, I frankly find it very rude for you to come here with a question, get replies, and then insult the people who are giving you their opinons, and imply that in the future you will start lying to us in your questions because you don't like the answers we give.

I was not serious about lying about the size of the buy-in the future, I just wanted to make a point.Also, I apologize for going on that rant, I was worked up. I could be using results based thinking when defending a reason to fold preflop. I pushed all in preflop and he called with AA. The other tiny stack guy had A 4 offsuit and we were both eliminated. It's hard for me to say now what to do. It really did feel like I was beat at the time, and I still pushed all-in. Do you think if my read was that I was beat I really should have folded here Vick? The problem is I've already got 1/4 my stack invested and my read doesn't have to be wrong much to make this a call/all-in I think.Assuming we are not folding, is calling and folding if an ace flops a better option than pushing all-in now? It will only leave me with 1600 chips if I choose to do so.

[therrinn 0]

I was not serious about lying about the size of the buy-in the future, I just wanted to make a point.Also, I apologize for going on that rant, I was worked up. I could be using results based thinking when defending a reason to fold preflop. I pushed all in preflop and he called with AA. The other tiny stack guy had A 4 offsuit and we were both eliminated. It's hard for me to say now what to do. It really did feel like I was beat at the time, and I still pushed all-in. Do you think if my read was that I was beat I really should have folded here Vick? The problem is I've already got 1/4 my stack invested and my read doesn't have to be wrong much to make this a call/all-in I think.Assuming we are not folding, is calling and folding if an ace flops a better option than pushing all-in now? It will only leave me with 1600 chips if I choose to do so.

I think I just push there - if I was to act first after the flop, I'd just call, but with him acting first I'll just push. I think that the difference in this situation is so small that it probably doesn't really matter which path you choose. I'll go back and agree with copernicus that your raise was a bit large - if you're going to consider folding to a limp-reraise with the queens, I think a raise of 600 is more appropriate. It both leaves you enough chips behind to fold if necessary, and if he does reraise, his raise will probably be a lot smaller if you do want to call and see what happens/make a play on the flop. I think that given the betting and your stack size, I'd just push and hope that I'm good.

[Vick12 0]

I was not serious about lying about the size of the buy-in the future, I just wanted to make a point.Also, I apologize for going on that rant, I was worked up. I could be using results based thinking when defending a reason to fold preflop. I pushed all in preflop and he called with AA. The other tiny stack guy had A 4 offsuit and we were both eliminated. It's hard for me to say now what to do. It really did feel like I was beat at the time, and I still pushed all-in. Do you think if my read was that I was beat I really should have folded here Vick? The problem is I've already got 1/4 my stack invested and my read doesn't have to be wrong much to make this a call/all-in I think.Assuming we are not folding, is calling and folding if an ace flops a better option than pushing all-in now? It will only leave me with 1600 chips if I choose to do so.

In a nutshell...YES! Now...before anyone goes ape le me preface this...would I make this laydown? NO! However, if your read is AA or KK and you are 100% sure...then fold, keep the rest of your stack and go from there. But I mean this has to be one helluva a read. I mean the type where the villain is a player you know VERY VERY well. If you don't have any real read other thean "he hasn't done that yet...he must have a hand", then jam your chips and get after it!I would NOT fold in this spot unless I was 99.9% sure he had either AA or KK and I am not doing that w/o TONS of backround on the player.It does sound like you had some results based thinking. It does suck when you make the "crying call" or the "close your eyes jam" and they turn over the goods. Unfortunately thats part of the game. For evey time I am right that he has me, I am probably WRONG about him having me beat waaaaay more than that. Like therrinn said...over a large sample set as well the donks at the $5 (or even $20 180 sit and STEAL fests!!!) will be behind and usually dominated way way way more than their tricky play of AA or KK. As for the 2nd part...Don't call and hope and ace doesn't hit. Reraise it all in and hope for the best! Like u said...u have most of the stack in already...are u folding even if an ace hits? Of course not! So just jam it preflop cuz its all getting in anyway.Good Luck!

[Bubba83 0]

None of my reads are going to be that spot on, so I can't fold. By the way, my standard re-raise here probably would have been making it 750 or 800 total. However, 2 of the people on my left were really loose callers, and one was the big stack of the entire tournament, so I wanted to put in a really solid one so I didn't have to deal with a A or K flop out of position against one of those guys.

[copernicus 0]

None of my reads are going to be that spot on, so I can't fold. By the way, my standard re-raise here probably would have been making it 750 or 800 total. However, 2 of the people on my left were really loose callers, and one was the big stack of the entire tournament, so I wanted to put in a really solid one so I didn't have to deal with a A or K flop out of position against one of those guys.

You dont want to deal with an A or K flop in or out of position...you are folding to aggression after one of those flop from any position unless you overcommit yourself preflop.

[Bubba83 0]

Theoretical Situation Copernicus:I just re-raise to 800, big stack of the tourney calls, UTG folds.Flop comes Kc 8d 5dAre you suggesting we just check/fold now?We have to protect our queens if he didn't hit that king, don't we have to bet here to do that? This is the situation I was trying to avoid with the larger re-raise preflop.

[therrinn 0]

I would bet out on that hypothetical flop. Obviously put on the brakes, but don't necessarily assume you're beat even if they call.

[copernicus 0]

Theoretical Situation Copernicus:I just re-raise to 800, big stack of the tourney calls, UTG folds.Flop comes Kc 8d 5dAre you suggesting we just check/fold now?We have to protect our queens if he didn't hit that king, don't we have to bet here to do that? This is the situation I was trying to avoid with the larger re-raise preflop.

As someone suggested, I think 6oo is enough. I would lead 600 and fold to a reraise. If he flat calls I would try and check it down because he may be letting us bet into him.This isnt much different than KK preflop when an A flops...you almost have to believe they have a hand if they are willing to bet into you.

[Bubba83 0]

but they are behind us, which just kills me!

[copernicus 0]

but they are behind us, which just kills me!

yup...but youre not always going to get your good hands in position.