a helmuthian laydown

[Canuckickstan 2]

Date / Time: 2006-01-31 09:16:00 Title: Marc Nantais Eliminated in 32nd ($14,783) Log: Jorge Arias raises to $24,000 and Marc Nantais moves all in for around $150,000. Then, Denis Ethier reraises all in. Arias thinks long and hard and then folds K-K face up. Nantais turn over Kd10d but Ethier has pocket aces. The board helps neither player and Marc Nantais is eliminated. Jorge Arias made an amazing laydown to stay in this tournament. I gues the re-raise was good info but I'm sure I'm out on this hand.

[bdc30 0]

Depends on a few things, namely how many chips I had leftand what the size of the re-raise was, but it'd be toughto lay that hand down.

[CodyHartman 0]

I think at that level of a tourney it might be possible to lay down KK to a 3rd raise. I dunno if I can do it, but some other higher level players here may be able to.Patrick?

[Bizzle 0]

I thought Arias's laydown there was pretty bad, regardless of whether the other player had aces. I guess the extra 2000 he got from moving from what would have been 32nd (he had fewer chips than Either) to 28th (which is what he ended up getting) made it seem better, but if he wanted to win, laying kings was very poor.It is reasonable to assume that Arias had around 100k heading into the hand. He had 49k at the start and doubled early, so 100k is a decent assumption. Average with 33 left was 288k, assume with a knockout the average is now about 300k. His bet of 24k commits a quarter of his stack, there is an all in behind him, and then an isolation raise all in. He is looking at calling 75kish into what is a 225k main pot with KK, so about 3:1 on his money. I think that this is a situation where you take the chance to double to get to an average stack with the second best hand in the deck, even if 90% of the time you are taking a 80:20 the wrong way (and I think that that 90% number is a little high). Folding leaves you with 1/4 of an average stack, and in the bottom 3 of the field.

I am not good enough to fold kings preflop, and neither are you.

[PMJackson21 0]

I think at that level of a tourney it might be possible to lay down KK to a 3rd raise. I dunno if I can do it, but some other higher level players here may be able to.Patrick?

Billy's analysis above is pretty spot on. If the KK guy had more chips, then I could def see folding, but not in this situation 95% of the time.Heh, like all poker problems however, a lot would depend on table dynamics information we don't have available to us. Maybe the KK guy had played long enough with the AA guy to know he wouldn't do that without aces. If he read the guy as being supremely confident after coming over the top of his raise, and an all-in raise, then what could he put him on? If the AA player wasn't good at masking his emotions, then it wouldn't be too hard to garner how he feels about his hand. If he doesn't seem worried at all, then you have to seriously consider him having AA. That being said, Dan Harrington's quote is pretty accurate.Patrick

[bascomeb 0]

Hellmuthian laydown? Please. The guy i'm sure has made so many bad laydowns with top pair in tourneys and has been pushed around so much. I hate people who praise him for being right once with AK on A 44 Q board.

[allin1090 0]

Date / Time: 2006-01-31 09:16:00  Title: Marc Nantais Eliminated in 32nd ($14,783)  Log: Jorge Arias raises to $24,000 and Marc Nantais moves all in for around $150,000.  Then, Denis Ethier reraises all in.  Arias thinks long and hard and then folds K-K face up.  Nantais turn over Kd10d but Ethier has pocket aces.  The board helps neither player and Marc Nantais is eliminated.  Jorge Arias made an amazing laydown to stay in this tournament.  

He can dodge bullets baby.

[custom36 5]

Hellmuthian laydown? Please. The guy i'm sure has made so many bad laydowns with top pair in tourneys and has been pushed around so much. I hate people who praise him for being right once with AK on A 44 Q board.

Some people have monster tells. I'm gonna bet that the AA guy is one of them.

[Scanner313 0]

He can dodge bullets baby.

Helmuth's quote is (in my opinion) one of the gayest moments in TV poker ever.

[Juandastyle 0]

i've tried to make one of those laydowns once....it was a misread, a very tight player in a $5 mtt on Pstars...I was MP, KK, raise3x bb, reraise all in by someone w/ about 1/3 chips as me, then a huge stack on the button reraised all in, i folded... big stack had 88. Oh well. Good news is he spiked an 8, so, what do they say, "hindsight is 20/20"?just my 2cents

[bdc30 0]

a very tight player in a $5 mtt on Pstars...

Right there was about where I stopped reading that post.I hope you were kidding. That supposed laydown was nothing like the one in the OP. When you make that laydown with $30K on theline, then make a post about it. For $5.... :roll:

[dead money 1]

Hellmuthian laydown? Please. The guy i'm sure has made so many bad laydowns with top pair in tourneys and has been pushed around so much. I hate people who praise him for being right once with AK on A 44 Q board.

Im sorry, I dont like Hellmuth much either, but he is still one of the best NL players out there. He makes incredible reads. Im sure he hasnt made many bad laydowns. He knows what pot odds are, and hes not going to go against them. Hes just like any other top pro. Ive seen him call reraises with mediocre hands because he was getting the right price. He isnt some weak tight donk that alot of people make him out to be. I dont see what the big deal is with Hellmuth and his "tight" play. He does what alot of other pros do. He trys to keep the pot small so he can control the action. He wants to force the other players to make mistakes by calling without the right odds. Thats the best you can do.

[ForKeeps 0]

You could argue though, in this particular situation, that EVEN IF the re-raiser pushes in his stack and flipped Aces over, Arias should have still called?

[Simpleton 0]

I have never even heard of a tight player in a $5 tourney.

[PMJackson21 0]

You could argue though, in this particular situation, that EVEN IF the re-raiser pushes in his stack and flipped Aces over, Arias should have still called?

Well, not precisely. KK would be needing to get 4-1 or better on his money, and based on Billy's math, he was only getting 3-1. Also, being on the bubble of a bigger pay out shouldn't change how you play, but it would def be a consideration in the situation you described (where you were shown his AA).Patrick

[rocksquid 50]

He can dodge bullets baby.

Helmuth's quote is (in my opinion) one of the gayest moments in TV poker ever.

would Ivey and Williamson on the golf course be another?

[TyRoy 0]

How do you guys think Ethier played his hand? Anyone call with the aces and hope to drag another player along?

[KowboyKoop 0]

Hellmuthian laydown? Please. The guy i'm sure has made so many bad laydowns with top pair in tourneys and has been pushed around so much. I hate people who praise him for being right once with AK on A 44 Q board.

People don't praise him for being right "once" with AK. People praise him for being...oh, I don't know, one of the best NL tourney players in the world...if not the very best in the world (arguable). He makes great laydowns all the time, probably folds the best hand more than other pros may do, but he also isn't NEARLY as tight as the 7-8 hands per show you see on TV with him. Also....people act like he's "lost" something or can't be successful in the new poker world...what a load of sh*t. Hellmuth's style is distinct, but it flat out works in NL tourney holdem. By the time he's done, he'll have 15-16 or so WSOP bracelets and many other achievements to his name. Quit hating on Hellmuth just b/c he can be an a*shole AT TIMES. So can A LOT of other people.

[jakoye 0]

a very tight player in a $5 mtt on Pstars...

Right there was about where I stopped reading that post.I hope you were kidding. That supposed laydown was nothing like the one in the OP. When you make that laydown with $30K on theline, then make a post about it. For $5.... :roll:

Well, if the "money shouldn't matter" then it doesn't make a difference whether it was a $5 or $50,000 tourney. The key is to make correct poker decisions no matter what the stakes.Don't jump on a guy just because he doesn't play at the stakes you do.

[bdc30 0]

Don't jump on a guy just because he doesn't play at the stakes you do.

I never said I played at stakes any higher than this, I just said thatlaying down Kings in a $5 sit n'go was ludicrous.The words "very tight player" and "$5 Sit n' Go" should neverbe used in the same sentence.

[ForKeeps 0]

People don't praise him for being right "once" with AK. People praise him for being...oh, I don't know, one of the best NL tourney players in the world...if not the very best in the world (arguable). He makes great laydowns all the time, probably folds the best hand more than other pros may do, but he also isn't NEARLY as tight as the 7-8 hands per show you see on TV with him. Also....people act like he's "lost" something or can't be successful in the new poker world...what a load of sh*t. Hellmuth's style is distinct, but it flat out works in NL tourney holdem. By the time he's done, he'll have 15-16 or so WSOP bracelets and many other achievements to his name. Quit hating on Hellmuth just b/c he can be an a*shole AT TIMES. So can A LOT of other people.For some reason I could have never put this opinion on you. I very much agree, however. I think, considering all 9 of his wsop bracelets have been in Holdem, that he's probably still the man to be in NL tourney holdem. Like I think you implied, he's maybe a bit susceptible to LAG players, but when Hellmuth can get more isolated (WPT tourney of champions, Heads-Up Championship, that SnG for $2 mill that i forget the name of) he does very, very well even against the top pros in the game. I think he WAS unlucky not to win both the tourney of champs and that 2 mil single table.

[Bizzle 0]

You could argue though, in this particular situation, that EVEN IF the re-raiser pushes in his stack and flipped Aces over, Arias should have still called?

Well, not precisely. KK would be needing to get 4-1 or better on his money, and based on Billy's math, he was only getting 3-1. Also, being on the bubble of a bigger pay out shouldn't change how you play, but it would def be a consideration in the situation you described (where you were shown his AA).Patrick

I am sort of with Pat on this, and sort of not. If he knew the other two players cards, it is an easy fold, as he only has one out and is getting 3:1.If he didn't know either of the other two players cards, it is an easy call.If he knew about the aces...it is a marginal situation. Like I said, average stack is 300k. He is getting about 3:1 in a situation where he is likely 4:1 in the pot. If he folds, he has 75k, which he would need to double twice to get to average. If he calls, he will have 300k 20% of the time, and be out the other 80%. Since he is so shortstacked, this might (and I use this term VERY carefully) be the time to take the hit in value in order to advance further in the tourney one of the times he hit the two outer.Once again though-he did not know either players cards. He is shortstacked and getting 3:1 on his money with KK. I think it is a real bad laydown, with that information included.

[Bizzle 0]

For some reason I could have never put this opinion on you.  I very much agree, however. I think, considering all 9 of his wsop bracelets have been in Holdem, that he's probably still the man to be in NL tourney holdem.  Like I think you implied, he's maybe a bit susceptible to LAG players, but when Hellmuth can get more isolated (WPT tourney of champions, Heads-Up Championship, that SnG for $2 mill that i forget the name of) he does very, very well even against the top pros in the game. I think he WAS unlucky not to win both the tourney of champs and that 2 mil  single table.

As an admitted Hellmuth hater, this is a biased opinion, but his performance at the FTs the last two WSOP TOCs was, well, indicative of how he plays. Especially this past years (where the hand by hand log is available), you can just see Corkins crushing him repeatedly. Phil's unwillingness to gamble (and his phenominal reading ability to lay AQ when Corkins had AA) cost him the latest TOC. At last year's TOC (the 2 mil STT) he complained afterwards about Annie consistently coming over the top of him......well maybe, if he would ever make a stand at a point when he has a decent amount of chips, he might have had a shot.

[KowboyKoop 0]

People don't praise him for being right "once" with AK. People praise him for being...oh, I don't know, one of the best NL tourney players in the world...if not the very best in the world (arguable). He makes great laydowns all the time, probably folds the best hand more than other pros may do, but he also isn't NEARLY as tight as the 7-8 hands per show you see on TV with him. Also....people act like he's "lost" something or can't be successful in the new poker world...what a load of sh*t. Hellmuth's style is distinct, but it flat out works in NL tourney holdem. By the time he's done, he'll have 15-16 or so WSOP bracelets and many other achievements to his name. Quit hating on Hellmuth just b/c he can be an a*shole AT TIMES. So can A LOT of other people.

For some reason I could have never put this opinion on you. I very much agree, however. I think, considering all 9 of his wsop bracelets have been in Holdem, that he's probably still the man to be in NL tourney holdem. Like I think you implied, he's maybe a bit susceptible to LAG players, but when Hellmuth can get more isolated (WPT tourney of champions, Heads-Up Championship, that SnG for $2 mill that i forget the name of) he does very, very well even against the top pros in the game. I think he WAS unlucky not to win both the tourney of champs and that 2 mil single table.

[b]I agree with all of this. Sure, Hellmuth has his weaknesses, but so does....every single player in the world. Hellmuth is always a force to be reckoned with in NL tourneys...and hell, he final tabled the PL Omaha at the WSOP, so it isn't like he has no skill in other games. I understand people not "liking him" because of his outbursts, but people who criticize for "not being that good" or whatever are just dumb.[/b]

[TyRoy 0]

The words "very tight player" and "$5 Sit n' Go" should neverbe used in the same sentence.

I built a pretty decent BR 4-tabling $5 SnG's and playing "very tight". Not folding KK - tight, but pretty tight. And it worked well.