harman's play of trip 7's

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Does anyone lead out w/ a set here???I know people love to trap w/ their sets, but is there any merit to leading  and trying to induce a raise???Think about it.  Say there's 10K in the pot.  She leads for 7 or 8K, Eli folds and Sammy raises to 25K.  Now you can either raise him or smooth call.  It's trickier to put her on a set this way.  I didn't see the play, so I don't know any of the circumstances, but from my personal experience I make more on sets by leading out b/c nobody puts you on such a strong hand.

I think leading here is much more effective, but I don't mind the check/push. I think Sammy calls this more than people are really apt to believe, with the notion that she's just stealing the pot from him.

[Ramocita 0]

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's.  Not trip 7's.

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

Actually, they're very different. One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.' One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.Do you see how these are so very different? I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.

I agree with you as far as Poker technique or skillwise... that when you flop a "set" or trips or whatever, that it is not as obvious as two cards of the same rank on the board as far as holdem goes...But... I still stand by what I said as far as Poker terms goes...Three of a kind, set and trips... is all the same thing......No disrespect... take care! :wink:

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's.  Not trip 7's.

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

Actually, they're very different. One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.' One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.Do you see how these are so very different? I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.

I agree with you as far as Poker technique or skillwise... that when you flop a "set" or trips or whatever, that it is not as obvious as two cards of the same rank on the board as far as holdem goes...But... I still stand by what I said as far as Poker terms goes...Three of a kind, set and trips... is all the same thing......No disrespect... take care! :wink:

I'm okay with agreeing to disagree..heh. Good luck, sir.

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

Anyone else who watched last night think Harman grossly overplayed her set of 7's against Sammy.Knowing that he is an aggresive player, wouldn't you smooth call the flop bet and let him lead it on the turn again?Why push all in on the flop, where you are almost sure he can't call you.

I agree with Gabe Kaplan as well as yourself on that point. The problem with Jennifer moving all in was two fold. After her performance, which actually seemed to induce Eli to bet, followed by Sammy's reraise and then capped by putting down her spreadsheat and clumsily moving in (By the way, another academy award performance), Sammy had to know how big her hand was. The second point and the biggest key, however is just how good Sammy Farha is at reading the best players in the biggest cash games. Lets face it, altough many of us would have smelled a rat in that situation, how many of us could lay it down? Watching Sammy for a few telecasts, it's become apparent that even on his worst days he could make the laydown.It's how he gets away with playing every pot, carrying the legacy of a world class cat burgler in the most expensive NL game in the world. It's how he makes calling from the small blind with 92s into a positive EV play. Monday nights telecast of high stakes poker was really a show about two transcendant players amongst the grandmasters of no limit. (Daniel being the other one as well as the most impressive thus far.) That show is inspirational because it reveals that even in the platinum cash game of all the world, poker can still be fun and the game can still be beaten.

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's. Not trip 7's.

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

Actually, they're very different. One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.' One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.Do you see how these are so very different? I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.

Drawingdead is right. It's tough to argue with someone for being smarmy when the are tecniquely correct. Instead you should just do what I'm doing and wait till he screws something up and then break his balls for it... Just kidding man. Good posts.

[Ramocita 0]

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's. Not trip 7's.

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

Actually, they're very different. One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.' One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.Do you see how these are so very different? I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.

I agree with you as far as Poker technique or skillwise... that when you flop a "set" or trips or whatever, that it is not as obvious as two cards of the same rank on the board as far as holdem goes...But... I still stand by what I said as far as Poker terms goes...Three of a kind, set and trips... is all the same thing......No disrespect... take care! :wink:

I'm okay with agreeing to disagree..heh. Good luck, sir.

OK OK OK.........But... I am a woman.. go ahead FLAME......

[No_Neck 0]

I think she made a mistake. If she smooth called, Eli might have called (doubtful) but Sammy might have made another move at her. She basically decided that the 25K in the pot was enough, and by reraising all in Sammy really had to lay it down. I think that was really what she wanted to happen.The smooth call probably also tells Sammy he is beat, so she may have figured that whatever she did she wasn't going to get any more chips. And there always the possibility that someone could draw out on you. It seemed very defensive.I like calling for the chance that Eli might call, and Sammy might be induced to put chips in after the turn. Either way She probably isn't getting anymore chips, given what the villians were holding. But if an Ace or King falls, she may get all of Sammy's chips.

you are forgetting that sammy has position so after she would have checked and then sammy could check and get a free shot at taking her stack again. A fundumental of Poker in general: If the pot is big, and you think you have the best hand protect it. This isn't tournament poker where you need to double through, she won a huge amount of money on that hand.

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

Does anyone lead out w/ a set here???I know people love to trap w/ their sets, but is there any merit to leading and trying to induce a raise???Think about it. Say there's 10K in the pot. She leads for 7 or 8K, Eli folds and Sammy raises to 25K. Now you can either raise him or smooth call. It's trickier to put her on a set this way. I didn't see the play, so I don't know any of the circumstances, but from my personal experience I make more on sets by leading out b/c nobody puts you on such a strong hand.

Might have been a good play in this spot. She probably feared the the king was a scare card for her opponents rather than an action card.

[Ramocita 0]

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's. Not trip 7's.

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

Actually, they're very different. One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.' One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.Do you see how these are so very different? I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.

I agree with you as far as Poker technique or skillwise... that when you flop a "set" or trips or whatever, that it is not as obvious as two cards of the same rank on the board as far as holdem goes...But... I still stand by what I said as far as Poker terms goes...Three of a kind, set and trips... is all the same thing......No disrespect... take care! :wink:

I'm okay with agreeing to disagree..heh. Good luck, sir.

OK OK OK.........But... I am a woman.. go ahead FLAME......

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's. Not trip 7's.

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

Actually, they're very different. One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.' One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.Do you see how these are so very different? I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.

I agree with you as far as Poker technique or skillwise... that when you flop a "set" or trips or whatever, that it is not as obvious as two cards of the same rank on the board as far as holdem goes...But... I still stand by what I said as far as Poker terms goes...Three of a kind, set and trips... is all the same thing......No disrespect... take care! :wink:

I'm okay with agreeing to disagree..heh. Good luck, sir.

OK OK OK.........But... I am a woman.. go ahead FLAME......

So, uh, you single?

[Jordan 1]

dbl post go below

[Jordan 1]

havn't read replies. but my opinion on hand.First off, this should have been an easy lead for her.The pots been raised behind her, and it's best possible flop. 7Kx, she should have known with the two behind her, especially sammy, if she lead she very well may have been raised, or just called which is good as well because then she can go for a c/r on the turn, or lead again and put a tough decision to sammy/eli depending.sammy was also making a lot of plays it looked like, so she really could have done some damage.now. this justcomes from experience playing...but anytime someone checks, bet, then theirs a raise, and a big one, and the original checker cold calls, obviously somethign is up.Either way I think this hand was finished on the flop as sammy is worldclass and hopefully would have noticed that jenn isn't c/cing that flop with anyting less that a set, maybe two pair..but hopefully with two pair she'd move in on, not a set. but how the hand played she was kinda screwed. I really think the only hand that was calling her would have been top set there, as she was holding middle..obviously undersets call too.However, ideal line given the action preflop/playersharmon leads, eli calls/folds, sammy calls/raises cause we know he isn't going anywhere.but had she bet this is what i think would have happened.harmon lead, eli folds, sammy raises, hopefully a large amount so now harmon can get him more committed, and re-raise, or call with intention of c/r the turn, or leading...harmon lead, eli raise, sammy re-raise...jen move in now. there's more in the pot and one of them will be more likely to call, although still doubtful as these guys aren't idiots.---but how it was played i don't blame her moving in on the flop cause I really doubt had she cold called roughly 30k on the flop the hand would have gone any further...unless sammy hit trips or maybe even two pair on the turn..but i still think he gets away from it.i think had she not been reading that paper and actually paid attention to the hand like normal and not given off the basic "im not interested in this pot but c/c a big ass bet" tell...she coulda banked on this hand...but for a pro.peace.- Jordan

[ICrushHomeGames 0]

Wait, I have an idea. Let's act like we know exactly what 2 of the best players in the world are thinking. We can pretend that we know the history between these 2 and how they think the other would play certain hands. Continue.

[Scott3705 0]

Wait, I have an idea. Let's act like we know exactly what 2 of the best players in the world are thinking. We can pretend that we know the history between these 2 and how they think the other would play certain hands. Continue.

we can also notice that everyone at the table knew that she had 77 too.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Wait, I have an idea. Let's act like we know exactly what 2 of the best players in the world are thinking. We can pretend that we know the history between these 2 and how they think the other would play certain hands. Continue.

Wait, I have an idea. Let's act like an asshole when people are trying to have a constructive discussion about the way the hand was played by two of the best players in the world. We can pretend that we added something to the conversation instead of just being a complete dick. Ever heard of Gary Carson? Continue.

[iggymcfly 0]

I don't think that Harman necessarily made a mistake by raising, but you have to admit that she was a total tell-box. She does about the biggest weak when strong tell I've ever seen by reading a newspaper, and then check/reraising, and then when she shoves in her chips, her hands were shaking like she had Parkinson's.Honestly, if she'd just played the hand normally, I think she could have either led or check/called, and been just fine. I mean, if she did have a hand like KQ, is it that unlikely that she'd look for the check/raise, and then decide to cold-call when there's a bet and a raise behind her? I really think that she would have got Farha to put in something on the turn, and given how safe the board is, I don't think she'd be giving up any value.

[Jordan 1]

Wait, I have an idea. Let's act like we know exactly what 2 of the best players in the world are thinking. We can pretend that we know the history between these 2 and how they think the other would play certain hands. Continue.

harmon is a great limit player. she herself admitted her nl game is not as strong. that play showed some of her inexperience, especially in comparison to the NL greats at the table....2nd. go back to your home game.- Jordan

[CobaltBlue 662]

Watching the program with my brother last evening, I came to the same conclusion that most of y'all did.If she smooth-calls a bet/raise on the most draw free board in Hold Em, alarm bells go off for Farha. I very much doubt Eli is coming in behind her. He'd have to know he's drawing to two outs. Assuming she calls and checks the turn, I think Farha checks behind her. One unusual line that hasn't been suggested is calling the flop and making a value bet on the turn. It still would've been highly suspect, but it would've been better than trying to check-raise.I agree that leading out at this flop (based on the texture) would've been the best approach for her.I like her options in this order...1) bet/call, check/raise2) bet/re-raise3) check/re-raise4) check/call, bet, bet5) check/call, check, bet

[PhilHellmuth 0]

i havent read what everyone else wrote yet. this is the exact hand - harman calls 600 with 7c 7selezra raises to 4000 with 10c 10h farha calls 4000 with Ac Ksharman calls 3400 morepot now 13,700flop comes Kc 7d 4sharman checkselezra bets 8500 [pot now 22,200]farha raises to 25,500 [pot now 47,700]harman raises all in to 94,900 [pot now 142,600]elezra folds.farha folds. i believe jen's move in was the right play and anyone who disagrees hasnt really thought it through. here's why - she probably deduced from preflop action that he doesnt have KK.a hand sammy is actually quite likely to have is 56s, in which case he'd only be a 2 to 1 dog with his live straight draw, and even after jen moves in sammy still gets 2 to 1 from the pot, so if she thinks he has 56 she should absolutely move in.if sammy has 2 pair he'll probably call the all in, also making that bet correct. [but with this flop its very unlikely sammy has 2 pair]important point - when eli bets the flop and sammy raises, sammy has defined his hand. if jen comes out of the blue and calls that giant bet with the dry flop, alarm bells will likely go off and i cant see sammy putting more money into the pot. which means she'll often gain nothing when he is drawing near dead [as he was], but when he has 56 she'll be giving a free turn card in a pot where the rest of her 70,000 would eventually go into the pot no matter what, but sammy's money would only go in if he hits his straight. that'd be a disaster for jen! u simply must move in right now if sammy has 56.the only way gabe would be correct is if she could somehow know he had AK, and that, [follow this] since everyone always thinks sammy has crap, he would think she called the giant bet with KQ or KJ and thus continue to bet the turn. but even so he might still shut down on the turn out of fear.thus, i think jen made the right play. thoughts?

[PhilHellmuth 0]

after skimming thru most of the replys, i think the only person who completely hit the nail with every word written was Jordan. especially that jen maybe should have led the flop, super system style.eli may hav called not believing she had a king and putting sammy on trash, and thus eli woulda got squeezed and jen would've won more.

[Pupsta 0]

i think if jen leads, she's more than doubling up.if she decides to go for a c/r, she did the right thing. she can't check and flat call a bet and a raise.

[Scott3705 0]

after skimming thru most of the replys, i think the only person who completely hit the nail with every word written was Jordan. especially that jen maybe should have led the flop, super system style.eli may hav called not believing she had a king and putting sammy on trash, and thus eli woulda got squeezed and jen would've won more.

I was about to reply to your previous post, but stopped when I saw this. so now you think that Jennifer did mess this hand up by not leading into eli and sammy?

[PhilHellmuth 0]

after skimming thru most of the replys, i think the only person who completely hit the nail with every word written was Jordan.  especially that jen maybe should have led the flop, super system style.eli may hav called not believing she had a king and putting sammy on trash, and thus eli woulda got squeezed and jen would've won more.

I was about to reply to your previous post, but stopped when I saw this. so now you think that Jennifer did mess this hand up by not leading into eli and sammy?

my bad, ur right, i do seem a bit schizo. once she's already checked and they bet and raise, then itd be terrible for her to call instead of moving in.the question of whether she should lead is a bit more difficult. itd be so unfortunate for jen to lead out and eli to fold his AJ and sammy to fold his 98 were these the type of hands they had, when she knows they're both aggressive players - eli's gonna continue betting on the flop cuz he had the lead and he's aggressive. sammy could then call or raise utilizing position and not even thinking about jen, and we see that's exactly what happend!yes, the 'super system', 'matasow prahlad ivey', 'smart NL player' thing to do would have been to lead the flop. and if jen knew their cards she certainly would have done so. but under the circumstances, she had no way of knowing she wouldnt end up with nothing for her set with dry board.

[DanFan316 0]

I have nothing much to add.Farah was playing loose, probably had him on a open handed straight.Eli had crap hands all night played tight, she probably had him on ACE king. She had alot of outs againts her, she represented her hand with her ALL in, not a bad bet. I don't think that's how other players would have played it though, it's called gambling for a reason! I'm not on Harman's level at all so what do i know. High stakes poker is probably the best Poker show on tonight that show = MONEY! Dan is getting some quality TV time right there, i loved when he got owned for 200K though, that hit him hard, competely changed his style of play from then on.

[kwags40 0]

I would have led out with a litle less then a pit sized bet from that position because she has to know that one of them has to have a strong king and will most likely raise her. If Eli gets out of the hand she can check call the turn on sammy and pund him on the river. Seems like the more profitable move.