the big game cheats??

[hotdog da 2rd 0]

I'm a successful middle-limit player with dreams of someday playing in one of the big games (hopefully the biggest game) at Bellagio but after reading Russ Georgiev's rpg posts today, I'm now somewhat skeptical of attempting that feat.Even if Georgiev's rpg posts are lies, there must some truth in them regarding Chip Reese and Doyle Brunson. I doubt that they are (if they'd ever been) cheating the Big Game today. Never less my respect for some the world's top cash game players has diminishs somewhat. Daniel, I would really like to hear your comment regarding the cheats in Bellagio. Do they still exists today or they just a thing of the past. Is it true that top players were recruiting up coming players into a world of cheats?Being a fan of your poker talents and your high morals on making the poker world a better place to play. I will believe your view on the subject.I'm also graceful if any of the Bellagio players could take some time off and comment on this subject.Maybe that Tilt show on ESPN isn't as stupid as I thought it was. lol

[deviper 0]

hot dog i would like to read the rpg your talking about if you could put the link to the site that would be great.

[Pokerghost2 0]

I have read some of russ g articles, i think hes a lunatic(threads not articles, sorry). But im sure hes talking about possible collusion among big game regulars, esp when a big fish is in the game. The way i think honestly who cares. The fish is gonna drop money anyway. The advantage to the players goes up if they collude but to me its no different than the casino setting out another slot machine to rob little old ladies. Collusion happens at mid levels. it happens at the high levels too. And i dont think Daniel or anybody else would get on here and tell u it doesnt happen for 100% sure. They may tell u that they themselves dont cheat. I think it would be just as foolish to look at a wrld cls pkr plyr as a role model as it would be to look at an athlete this way. Many of these players r world renowned for their hustles scams and proposition bets, what makes u think the hustles not on at the table 2? I got nothin against em if they do. Just dont giggle at the elaborate hustles and cons u read in those books, then think these guys r priests at the poker table.

[ChuckD 0]

deviper, just google "Russ Georgiev" and you'll soon see all the information that I believe hot dog referred to. Its mixed opinions on what he goes around saying but there seems to be more people thinking he is just a crazy conspiracy theorist! Personally I believe that cheating does go on in Poker...as it does in anything where money is involved, and this cheating will happen in many forms at home games, online, in casinos...everywhere people will attempt to cheat in ways of collusion, dodgy dealing, rigging cards etc etc.I can't see it happening in the "Big Game" though, nor in most of the higher stakes games in casinos. Lets face it most players at these games are either loaded through other business interests or have made a lot via poker. Once you have a bankroll capable of sustaining these sort of limits why cheat? If you get caught, which has to be highly likely playing against top experienced pro's, you'll never get a game again. You'll also lose your reputation as everyone will just say you cheated your way to the top...its lose/lose. It's just not worth the risk at that level of poker or when you have sufficient funds anyway. I am not saying none of the top players or well known players have never cheated or tried to cheat, thats not for me to comment on, however most of us have cheated even if its at monopoly! I would be amazed though if any high stakes game in any casino is cheated on a consistent basis by regular players and my stance is to dis-believe that theory until concrete proof is shown....or someone shows me how to get away with it :twisted:

[KDawgCometh 2]

hotdog, I wouldn't worry too much about what Russ says. He's been playing with 50 cards in his deck for a while. This is a guy who openly admitted to cheating Party out of $2 million, or so he claims. If he did or didn't doesn't matter, its the fact that he openly stated that he did on the world wide web, just take wht he says with a grain of salt

[hotdog da 2rd 0]

I have read some of russ g articles, i think hes a lunatic(threads not articles, sorry). But im sure hes talking about possible collusion among big game regulars, esp when a big fish is in the game. The way i think honestly who cares. The fish is gonna drop money anyway. The advantage to the players goes up if they collude but to me its no different than the casino setting out another slot machine to rob little old ladies. Collusion happens at mid levels. it happens at the high levels too. And i dont think Daniel or anybody else would get on here and tell u it doesnt happen for 100% sure. They may tell u that they themselves dont cheat. I think it would be just as foolish to look at a wrld cls pkr plyr as a role model as it would be to look at an athlete this way. Many of these players r world renowned for their hustles scams and proposition bets, what makes u think the hustles not on at the table 2? I got nothin against em if they do. Just dont giggle at the elaborate hustles and cons u read in those books, then think these guys r priests at the poker table.

This post is clearly off the track. First off I don't care too much for celebrities of any kind, but respecting someone's game in our own profession is differrent. The number one statement here is who cares, well I care. I have played as high as $400-$800 (ok twice) and I believe I have potentials of reaching games beyond $400-$800. You say that they're only targeting fishes and that is clearly a bad asumption. You must had skip over the Bobby Baldwin story. All of his other threads are weary but I totally believe the Bobby Baldwin story. There are many similar hearsay storys in casinos all over Vegas. It must be noted that they took him down in his prime when he was World Champion. Bobby Baldwin is probably the best limit holdem player ever and the greatest people reader in the business and these people destroyed him. How is that for confident in other up coming players who's trying to grab a piece of Bellagio.There is also the story of Henry Orenstein who kept Phil Ivey broke for half a year. I heard this story yrs ago but totally ignored it as a myth until Phil Ivey comfirmed it in Cardplayer. One of my friend (lets call him Smith) was crippled playing high stake stud at Bellagio. It was weird because Smith is a constant winner at the Commerce but everytime he's in Vegas for a major event. The Vegas players would destroy him in the live game. Btw before you go off ranting on Smith for blowing off his money, I just wanna say he has a WSOP bractlet in omaha and also made a WTP final table. His best game is still stud.As for me I made one televised WSOP final table. It was short lived because I lasted only 2 hrs at the final table which was only 7 minutes in T.V. time. At least the rewind button on my VCR remote still works. lol

[KDawgCometh 2]

not to pry, but is "Smith" David Oppenheim by chance. The big game guys are very much a clique and you have to "earn your stripes" to get in. That being said I don't think that you'd run into this type of collusion at the lower high stakes tables like the 400-800 game you were talking about. Guys like Doyle and Chip have been running Vegas for years and they obviously don't want that to change and like I said Russ is a bit of a wack job, so their might be more reliable sources to consult. Which WSOP event were you on BTW?

[hotdog da 2rd 0]

not to pry, but is "Smith" David Oppenheim by chance. The big game guys are very much a clique and you have to "earn your stripes" to get in. That being said I don't think that you'd run into this type of collusion at the lower high stakes tables like the 400-800 game you were talking about. Guys like Doyle and Chip have been running Vegas for years and they obviously don't want that to change and like I said Russ is a bit of a wack job, so their might be more reliable sources to consult. Which WSOP event were you on BTW?

HaHa u are prying, btw I wish Smith was David Oppenhiem so we won't to have follow the WTP in my car like a bunch of second rated players we are lol. My main worries aren't the $400-$800 game but the games above it. We are both in our late 20's so the possibility of us reaching that level is very likely (ok hopefully).Ask for me I'm not willing to give out my name. Yes, fame is nothing to me lol. Ok i'm just a bit of a smart azz on internet forums and I don't want this name to come back and bite me in the azz later on. Lets say some of my posts aren't flattering to some of the so called celebrity poker players. Mostly Phil Gordon, that guy is such a fraud he makes me sick!!

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think the biggest tester for the games above 400-800 is how John D'Agostino gets treated. I heard he is playing at very high limits right now and is making a move towards 1500-3000. I don't know him other than being a playing aqquaintence at the 5-10 NL tables in AC, needless to say he has skyrocketed and I've backtracked(for non-poker reasons I had to give up almost all of my roll, add two and two together to get the solution). I can't speak for the pros in vegas but I haven't heard of anybody being held down in AC like the way you stated for the vegas guys. While I have never played above 30-60 or 5-10 NL. I guess the only way to find out is to take your shot and see for yourself

[mark33f 0]

I was just curious about this...After Phil Hellmuth won the Championship did he play in the big games and get destroyed or something? I've heard he is a bad cash game player, but how did this come about? He seems to cocky to not have tried a big game.

[Smasharoo 0]

Look. To think there isn't some form of angle shooting or outright cheating occuring in games where hundreds of thousands can be at stake is hoplessly niave.IT'd be like thinking steroids weren't a part of baseball.Does that mean Doyle and Chip are dirty cheaters? Of course not. Come on, though, to think there's never been anything not above board in the biggest games is silly.

[mark33f 0]

I totally agree with smash and the baseball analogy is perfect. I dont think this just because of Tilt either. When has there honestly been a game where someone hasn't tried to cheat. I remember hearing the story in Poker Nation (dont remember names or details) but a person/ group got rigged (marked) decks into a $500,000 game and took it for two million.Hotdog- Can you direct me all this information and the Bobby Baldwin story in specfic ( I tried a google search but couldnt quite find it)

[hotdog da 2rd 0]

Look. To think there isn't some form of angle shooting or outright cheating occuring in games where hundreds of thousands can be at stake is hoplessly niave.IT'd be like thinking steroids weren't a part of baseball.Does that mean Doyle and Chip are dirty cheaters? Of course not. Come on, though, to think there's never been anything not above board in the biggest games is silly.

Of course there are angle shooting in the world of high stakes poker. Johnny Chan comfirmed this yrs ago. I've discovered this in internet poker also. The only disturding part is the two names, Chip Reese and Doyle Brunson.If Doyle and Reese are really scaming in the world of poker and Bellagio haven't step in to prevent it and protect it's constumers. What are the chances of it stopping now. If they weren't stop 20 years ago then I see no reason for them to stop today. Therefore I see no point for my colleagues and I to challenge a game we can't beat.If it's proven that Doyle and Reese has or had cheat the game of poker (I doubt it ever will be), then they just won't be dirty cheaters. They're be the scum of the poker world. Forget Hall Of Famers, put them in the hall of #%$#. Poker is entering a new era and all the dirt of the past must be cleaned. Btw Barry Bond is #%#$ing scum. He might be the best player ever on paper but a true sport fan like me'll spit in his face evey chance I get (ok only when he's not looking, off that steroids crap, and when he's too old to chase me down lol).

[hotdog da 2rd 0]

Hotdog- Can you direct me all this information and the Bobby Baldwin story in specfic ( I tried a google search but couldnt quite find it)

It's at recgroups.com, Georgiev posts it only couple days ago. Should still be there.

[mark33f 0]

If you read that stuff it is really tought not to believe or think that Doyle and Chip and others were/are involved in some sort of scheme. Its really disappointing. The truth, however, will never be known because when someone like Russ confesses or whatever no one really believes him...Also, I dont know this may be overthinking/anaylising this s#it but if doyle/chip and others were cheating it makes sense as to why they want that Andy Beal game to be played in Vegas...if that stuff was true of course

[MrConceit 0]

I hadn't read rpg more than a couple times before this, so much random spam and flaming it's hard to get to any real info.This Georgiev does seem to have a clue about poker, but also seems like such a crank. Nobody appears to take him seriously, not that that proves anything. I have a hard time believing much of what he wrote about online poker, but obviously you can't DISPROVE it either, haha, as always.The Doyle/Reese stuff and Baldwin stuff, I dunno. Again it would be quite worrying if it were true, how can one know? It all seems like Tilt turned real life. But without quite so much bad drama.

[Pokerghost2 0]

I agree with what the one guy said, if u have the bankroll, and u have the game, take ur shot. but, when the same 2 or 3 guys are bearing down on u, and their always in hands together, if u pick up on anything fishy like possible signaling, find another game. At that level their prolly so good u would be hard pressed to pick it up. But my feeling is dont walk into a situation worried about guys being partners and then blow ur whole wad finding out.

[WhiskyRiver 0]

Pretty easy to find the threads. Step by step:1) www.google.com2) Click on Groups. 3) By the search groups tab search for russ chip doyle.4) Click sort by date.5) Bask in the wonders at your fingertips now that you are able to successfully search a usenet archive. On a serious note, it is kind of cool. In one my law school classes a case was based on alleged libel made in 1997 in sci.archaeology. Thanks to google you could find out exactly what all the fuss was about...

[deviper 0]

wow this is very interesting. And i just pray that most of this isent true. to think that scamming in the big game today is just sickening. I can only hope that cheating in poker games is a thing of the past. I would really like to here wat danny has to say about this subject and wat he thinks.

[daddypoker23 0]

i've actually talk to russ G.. and his giving me a lot of info about alll the cheatering that happen in vegas.. he also sent me a couple of tapes of him and some of his old poker mafia talking about all the cheating that happen in vegas.. if you have any interest of recieving a copy of the tape send me a private message and all i ask is that you pay the shipping and the tape.. joel

[deviper 0]

I have a question if you think that cheating is going on today the casino would have to do something about it. And weather you beleave it or not i think alot of this has to do with the new show tilt. And another thing is that if the big game was scamming people dont you think danny would be broke by now, beacause I highly doubt that he would cheat. Hope to hear replies

[mark33f 0]

If they have been doing this "cheating" for 20 or 30 years they must be pretty good at it and be able to avoid getting caught. Russ also claims they had ins with casino management. Also, did you see the email Daniel sent to Russ (or thats what russ claims)? daniel says in that he even knows Doyle is a "big fat cheat". But if Daniel thought this why would he be in the big game in the first place. Sorry to bring some of this up, but I believe we as fans have the right to know what the hell is going on.

[deviper 0]

Mark i would like to see the email that you said danny sent russ. thanks. I really dont beleave that cheating goes on in the big game and that this is all just the crazy things that are in the mind of russ. I beleave that cheating went on back in the day but to think that it goes on today just seems kind of silly.

[machete 0]

Negreanu WAS honest and did at one time try. He sent me an email telling me he knew I was right and to continue what I was doing, but he didn't realize the power and ruthlessness these peolpe possess. They can MAKE or BREAK anyone they want in this business. They could in reality promote a MONKEY as being a world class player. They have done so already, even though they aren't simian.Negreanu is now IN. He is STAKED and is a front man at worst, along with the promotion and condoning. He accused Men the Master of being a cheat, but as you see, nothing was done even though many others corroborated this. You don't see Mike Caro around in this poker boom do you? He was the one who started this asthese people are concerned and is thus being punished.

Seems he pretty much implicates everyone, except Phil H.

[mark33f 0]

Here is the link to the email at top of pagehttp://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.ga...ccf709e3e65ec48This is the email I found...I dont know the validity of it though.