more qq "ness" at $50 nl

[Blink20 0]

Jordan,I've thought about this hand quite a bit.I think the main reason I can't say anything other than, Im too much of a wuss to call is because I dont know anything about the strategy of this situation.Most of my strategies are based on thousands upon thousands of experience from hands online. Sure I browse through books and forums some, and think about the math some, but most of my plays are just based on lots of experimenting and lots and lots of hands.So, I that means I can generally get a feelfor which bets and calls are working for me and which bets my opponents are making and what they mean. I have NO IDEA what an all in bet here signifies because i NEVER call it. I always figure that this is a nothing pot, and Im not going to lose all my money on it, if he's bluffing more power to him, I'll get him later when I have a set and he pulls that move, something along those lines.I am very interested to think about how much profit I am actually giving up by always passing on these situations. Granted, if its against a known manaic, ill be in there gambling all day long. But how many times does villian have a hand and not have a hand, and how many times do we need that to be to compensate for us making the call?IMO, its a crazy call that I never make, but I am interested to know what people think villian WILL usually have in this situation, and I mean if people actually have empirical evidence on it, they actually call these all ins quite a bit and either profit/ not profit. I would love to have enough of a bankroll to just go crazy and always call the all in overbet in these situations just for an experiment, but I dont :)Anyway, I hope that hand worked out for ya, and gl at the tables.

[theredpill99 0]

Jordan, in HU pots, I am more apt to call, but you haven't told us anything about your opponent at least not that I have read here. I think in the long run, calling this is - EV , whether or not , this is one of the times, I don't know.I keep simple rules for myself . These are in general and I certainly break them depending on the situation.Hands that should win small pots:KK , AA, QQ, JJ, TT, pairstwo pairHands that should win big pots:flushes, straights, sets, quads,You are right, though, that is a huge overbet. I've seen this type of play from short stacks who believe that you will call, though. He saw you call on the flop so maybe he believes you will call on the turn. Poker tracker is good in this situation because if he had a high PF aggression factor, I'd be much more likely to call. If it was really low, I'd certainly fold. I don't know what I would have done in that situation because I hadn't seen villain play. Maybe he wants to get the money in before any flush cards hit and kill the action. A player acting this way isn't likely worried about that, though but who knows.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Haven't read replies.Are you calling the flop with the intention of raising the safe turn? Even if you are, this is a perfect board for raising QQ heads up on the flop, I think.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Having read replies...I agree completely with Petoria. Whether the turn is an "auto-call" or an "auto-fold" or not, it's a very situational and opponent-based decision.If that's the case, it usually means there was something you could have done different on an earlier street to put yourself in a better spot.Reasons for raising:a) add value if you're aheadb) position, fold equity, et ceterac) a lot of 5- and 8-9 outer big blind specials bet here, like you said. If we call, they can hit a seemingly meaningless card and be way ahead without our knowing it.Occam's Razor here. Heads up, in position, with an overpair, having raised preflop. No good reason NOT to raise.

[Jordan 1]

Having read replies...I agree completely with Petoria.  Whether the turn is an "auto-call" or an "auto-fold" or not, it's a very situational and opponent-based decision.If that's the case, it usually means there was something you could have done different on an earlier street to put yourself in a better spot.Reasons for raising:a) add value if you're aheadB) position, fold equity, et ceterac) a lot of 5- and 8-9 outer big blind specials bet here, like you said.  If we call, they can hit a seemingly meaningless card and be way ahead without our knowing it.Occam's Razor here.  Heads up, in position, with an overpair, having raised preflop.  No good reason NOT to raise.

Sure. It's the most obvious, standard and normal play to make.But I think if we make the most standard, obvious, and normal play to make all the time then we are giving something away.My "situational" decesion came on the turn when he bet all in.I simply looked at the board, looked at his bet in relation to the board and thought...hmm, huge overbet of the pot, he probably thinks he is protecting his hand and decided to try and block me out.9/10 our opponent does not play a set like this (especially at the low limits). 1/10 we have been played by someone being very aggressive with a set.I actually have a hand I posted a few days ago where that was how I played it...http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...pic.php?t=37444I've also listed many reasons in my replies why not raising this flop everytime can and should be profitable in your HU pots.If you don't know them, re look over some of my posts.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

Jordan,I've thought about this hand quite a bit.I think the main reason I can't say anything other than, Im too much of a wuss to call is because I dont know anything about the strategy of this situation.Most of my strategies are based on thousands upon thousands of experience from hands online.  Sure I browse through books and forums some, and think about the math some, but most of my plays are just based on lots of experimenting and lots and lots of hands.So, I that means I can generally get a feelfor which bets and calls are working for me and which bets my opponents are making and  what they mean.  I have NO IDEA what an all in bet here signifies because i NEVER call it.  I always figure that this is a nothing pot, and Im not going to lose all my money on it, if he's bluffing more power to him, I'll get him later when I have a set and he pulls that move, something along those lines.I am very interested to think about how much profit I am actually giving up by always passing on these situations.  Granted, if its against a known manaic, ill be in there gambling all day long.  But how many times does villian have a hand and not have a hand, and how many times do we need that to be to compensate for us making the call?IMO, its a crazy call that I never make, but I am interested to know what people think villian WILL usually have in this situation, and I mean if people actually have empirical evidence on it, they actually call these all ins quite a bit and either profit/ not profit.  I would love to have enough of a bankroll to just go crazy and always call the all in overbet in these situations just for an experiment, but I dont :)Anyway, I hope that hand worked out for ya, and gl at the tables.

I hear what you are saying.I've just recently changed up a lot of my NL play recently (while playing $50 NL mind you) and it's been a great experience thus far. I'm only at 5k hands, but I'm averaging $25/hr at this tables (I'm two tabling) and a lot has to do with less re-raising preflop and more play postflop.I'm still getting comfortable with it and trying to get ready to move up in stakes (2-4 NL) to be completely comfortable playing this way. I'd be lying if I told you that the low amount of money on the line ($50) changes how I play....but with that being said...my post flop play, I think has improved handidly (no pun intended) in just these 5k hands.A lot I think has come from being very unpredictable and trying my best to keep my opponents guessing.Needless to say, I'm looking forward to see how the other 5k go while I work towards 10k and on.Good luck to you as well.- Jordanps - I made another, as you would say, "crazy call" today with top pair top kicker against an opponent who pushed on me on another safe board (flop this time). I again debated folding because of how large his bet was, but I decided to again go with my "bet strong when weak and weak when strong" mantra. It's been an interesting 5k hands, needless to say.ps2 - I don't expect my sick hourly rate to stay this steady, but for those that care, I will post some more hands and if my win rate is still staying in that $25/hr range. I think $15 would be more realistic at the $50 NL after many more hands...but I dunno, I could be wrong. If I could keep it at $20/hr I'd be thrilled.

[Jordan 1]

Haven't read replies.Are you calling the flop with the intention of raising the safe turn?  

Yes I'm raising on the turn if he leads again.Even if it is a - Jordan

[Blink20 0]

Even if it is a    - Jordan

You just love controversy don't you :twisted:

[anselm 0]

Sure. [Raising the flop] is the most obvious, standard and normal play to make.But I think if we make the most standard, obvious, and normal play to make all the time then we are giving something away.My "situational" decesion came on the turn when he bet all in.

You're talking micro stakes online poker. "Standard, obvious, and normal" play (ABC poker) wins money at this level. A lot of money. You're trying to be tricky with a pair? Some recommend you don't even slowplay quads, let alone a pair. Plus, forget "protecting" your hand... raising maximizes your earnings.Your last sentence in the above quote... notice whose decision it was on the turn. Ideally, you want to put your opponent to tough decisions. Raising on the flop puts pressure on him, instead of the pressure on you on the turn.

[looshle 6]

I put him on Ad8d.

[teneight 1]

not raising the flop was your biggest mistake. By not raising, you don't know where you are at in the hand. He called in the BB for only 1.25 more. Since you don't know much about him, raising the flop would be your best play since 1. you put more money in the pot 2. get a better idea where your hand standshe bet out $3...so i would probably raise it up to $11-$12. if he folds, then its fine since you took down the pot, and with that board, you could've lost a biggggggggg pot. Say he calls your raise on the flop, and a 4d came...a not soooo scary card. if he led out, i would probably put the breaks on now and maybe just call. If i sensed weakness, an all in would be my play here. if he checked, ofcourse i would've lead out with 3/5 the pot since you wont be giving him correct odds to call if he had 12 outs or less....which causes him to make a mistake. poker is a game of making your opponents make more mistakes

[teneight 1]

btw, on your actual hand, I would also call. his all in bet screams out weakness based on his actions pf/flop..pair with a draw..or maybe a straihgt flush drawteneight

[Patricnz 0]

ok on a flop of that texture if you know this guy well and know he bets agressively if called onflop the then you can take the risk of giving a turn card that can scare the shit out of you and may want you to not get your money inthen againraising the flop may scare him away and you are only really worried about a flush card hitting soemtimes and an a or a k falling still thats a lot of scary outs and you could be beat already..so at this limit i think going for a flop raise to say 8 or 9 and go from thereits not a huge mistake in my opinion either like others have said, usually these guys fire with anything agaisnt guys calling them down so you may want to sometimes take your chances of a scary turn to get more action from him on later streets

[Davin 0]

time for some resultsi dont mind smoothcalling the flop, as his bet seems more like a probe bet than anything else. you responded w/ weakness, this will allow you to extract more on the turn and river if the board bricks out.however, the 4 is definately not as safe as it seems. im not putting in all my chips on that turn since now we may just lose to a bb special like 3-4, 2-4, 2-3, 4-8, or something ridiculous like that. just for entertainment value, i say that he improved on that turn either by two pairing or gaining a big draw (a suited 5 diamonds or spades). if you weren't beat already, my gut says that the 6 was kinda ugly.

[Jordan 1]

Sure. [Raising the flop] is the most obvious, standard and normal play to make.But I think if we make the most standard, obvious, and normal play to make all the time then we are giving something away.My "situational" decesion came on the turn when he bet all in.

You're talking micro stakes online poker. "Standard, obvious, and normal" play (ABC poker) wins money at this level. A lot of money. You're trying to be tricky with a pair? Some recommend you don't even slowplay quads, let alone a pair. Plus, forget "protecting" your hand... raising maximizes your earnings.Your last sentence in the above quote... notice whose decision it was on the turn. Ideally, you want to put your opponent to tough decisions. Raising on the flop puts pressure on him, instead of the pressure on you on the turn.

I don't really consider this being "tricky" so much as...being different this one hand.I've tried to explain this all throughtout this thread. I just wanted to post this hand (and others like it/opposite of it - that I have also posted) to give others a different look at playing our overpairs in these small pots when shown aggression. In most cases I'm all for raising the flop, etc, etc...really, I am. But guys, I really just do not always put my opponents on big draws in these head up pots. I don't always think, "Hey, I need to protect my hand now cause he might have a draw and I need to bet him out."Sometimes, in these situations, it's completely the opposite. I want him to think I have the draw and he is the one betting me out. Whether or not I'm right or wrong everytime shouldn't be the debate...but it's being willing to mix up your play -- every once in a while -- to try and maximize some winnings in your NL ring game play.I can take pressure on the turn. For the most part I think I make good decisions. I really don't mind giving up the lead in certain pots, cause I usually do by choice, and so I know that I still am in control.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

btw, on your actual hand, I would also call. his all in bet screams out weakness based on his actions pf/flop..pair with a draw..or maybe a straihgt flush drawteneight

Exactly. If we can judge this on the flop, be willing to "gamble" in our mind by letting him set the pace, why not be willing to let him try and bet us outta the pot when he is drawing slim on the turn.This is a situational hand, and not the norm. I know this. However, I really think this all in call on the turn is one I make the majority of the time. I really should only be folding this if I am just trying to put my opponent on a hand that beats me, without trying to put him on a hand that I have crushed.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

If you guys want results, which I really don't think matters here...I'll post them.For those who want to see, go ahead.BB SHOWs K8o (no flush draw)- Jordan

Click and drag the white area to see. The copy it and paste it somewhere.Magic. - Jordan

[theredpill99 0]

Tell us what happened. I take offense to your statement that how I play poker makes no sense. NL isn't like limit. The correct play often changes depending on who your opponent is.

[Jordan 1]

Tell us what happened. I take offense to your statement that how I play poker makes no sense. NL isn't like limit. The correct play often changes depending on who your opponent is.

I don't think I said how you play poker makes no sense. I was referring to a few hands you have posted that really baffled me and your reasoning behind it.That's all.I really don't know much about you at all.The results are in the message above yours.GL- Jordan

[DeanK 0]

I don't think thats a bad call at all. Taht kind of situation, a lot of people will be bluffing on a draw, or just have top pair. Especially at a $50 NL table.

[theredpill99 0]

The results are in the message above yours.GL- Jordan

Where ? I don't see anything.

[Jordan 1]

It's the post up a bit...it's written in white and in small text.click and drag to highlight it then copy and paste it.- Jordan

[Petoria 0]

Good call, but I still stand by raising on the flop. I know it's just a different viewpoint, but I think you're going to lose more money by making this play. I think the reasons are obvious, you dont want him hitting on the turn, then you're going to pay him off, bc you have no way of knowing that you have to fold. Plus he has fold equity if an A or K hits the turn. Do you think you can call an all in if an A or K hits the turn? I dont think so. Maybe at 2/4 NL or higher there are situations where not raising the flop is correct, but at $50 NL when you don't have a solid read, this is a raise everytime.You say you agree that raising is correct, either way I just think it's important to restate the point above. This is a good hand to post, it's been very educational. Thx, keep killing them at $50 NL. :-)

[Jordan 1]

Good call, but I still stand by raising on the flop.  I know it's just a different viewpoint, but I think you're going to lose more money by making this play.  I think the reasons are obvious, you dont want him hitting on the turn, then you're going to pay him off, bc you have no way of knowing that you have to fold.  Plus he has fold equity if an A or K hits the turn.  Do you think you can call an all in if an A or K hits the turn?  I dont think so.  Maybe at 2/4 NL or higher there are situations where not raising the flop is correct, but at $50 NL when you don't have a solid read, this is a raise everytime.You say you agree that raising is correct, either way I just think it's important to restate the point above.  This is a good hand to post, it's been very educational.  Thx, keep killing them at $50 NL. :-)

Fair enough. I think raising this flop is correct too, but I also don't think it is incorrect to call as well. Granted I believed, and still do, that this was a good time and spot to slow play. I don't think it is everytime.But as I've said before, I use betting patterns a lot when i'm playing...many times when someone over bets the pot at me I will call down, even with marginal holdings.Thx, keep killing them at $50 NLthanks. if this continues for 5k more hands I'll be amazed. - Jordan

[gobears 0]

I'd raise the flop because of the draws out there - nh though