200nl shorthanded hand

[fopkins 0]

No fop he couldn't have a7os. I was 100% sure of it. If you just think about the way the hand is played it seems pretty apparent to me for anyone that plays enough NL with decent players.

You're playing online, perhaps the same partypoker servers that I play.People go all in with crazy shit all the time. (Such as AT high, hoping for a coinflip)It is not a stretch to put him on TPTK, I see people go all in with worse hands all the time.-fop

[Egarim 0]

No fop he couldn't have a7os. I was 100% sure of it. If you just think about the way the hand is played it seems pretty apparent to me for anyone that plays enough NL with decent players.

You're playing online, perhaps the same partypoker servers that I play.People go all in with crazy censored all the time. (Such as AT high, hoping for a coinflip)It is not a stretch to put him on TPTK, I see people go all in with worse hands all the time.-fop

No doubt. PP has plenty of maniacs. But this guy wasn't that type of player. He was a pretty tight player. He was good in the sense that he didn't do stupid stuff like go allin preflop w/ a10 or push allin with top pair.

[fopkins 0]

...I can't believe you are arguing that your move was +EV when you SAY that he is a tight player and he pushed all in. Yougotlucky-fop

[Egarim 0]

...I can't believe you are arguing that your move was +EV when you SAY that he is a tight player and he pushed all in. Yougotlucky-fop

Some food for thought.Let's suppose I have x-ray vision or hacked his machine (however, you want to look at it) and know exactly what he has. I know its a coinflip. I have 220 in a 200max buyin and must put in half my stack for this coinflip. Now when i call and everyone sees what i called with it looks like a crazy call. How can someone call an allin on the flop with a10 high? Now, it's only costing me 100 (if you're not rdy to buyin again in a sh nl game then you're going to get run over and make it hard to profit in the long run) and buying in another 100 isn't much. But now, after everyone sees this crazy call, can you imagine the action and fear i get? No one is going to make big bluffs on me which is going to make it a lot easier (in sh this is golden, I'll be able to buy plenty of pots). And since they see me as a bad player I'll get less credit for my allins.

[Guest XXEddie]

...I can't believe you are arguing that your move was +EV when you SAY that he is a tight player and he pushed all in. Yougotlucky-fop

Some food for thought.Let's suppose I have x-ray vision or hacked his machine (however, you want to look at it) and know exactly what he has. I know its a coinflip. I have 220 in a 200max buyin and must put in half my stack for this coinflip. Now when i call and everyone sees what i called with it looks like a crazy call. How can someone call an allin on the flop with a10 high? Now, it's only costing me 100 (if you're not rdy to buyin again in a sh nl game then you're going to get run over and make it hard to profit in the long run) and buying in another 100 isn't much. But now, after everyone sees this crazy call, can you imagine the action and fear i get? No one is going to make big bluffs on me which is going to make it a lot easier (in sh this is golden, I'll be able to buy plenty of pots). And since they see me as a bad player I'll get less credit for my allins.

whats funny is that you talk about table image and how people look at youthen say that your opponent was tight.......let me ask you, why would you call a "tight" players allin with AT high? dont tell me for table image, thats dumb to blow 100 bucks for table image, its better to call a river bet in a 30-40 dollar pot with Q high then to do that

[fopkins 0]

Yeah, that could happen.. ORYou could realize that you are playing on partypoker.. and 50% of the people there don't even watch the hands that they aren't involved in.. 40% don't remember stuff that they do see..Why I'd like to believe that we live in a utopian world where people will always see the table image that you project, it doesn't actually happen that way most of the time. Oh, and stop trying to give me free lessons on this game, I do well with the current strategy that I have of putting my money in the pot where I know that I'm a favorite and not just playing hoping for coinflips.Unless I feel the need to post again to correct idiotic rebuttal to this post, I'm done with this thread.-fop

[Egarim 0]

Yeah, that could happen.. ORYou could realize that you are playing on partypoker.. and 50% of the people there don't even watch the hands that they aren't involved in.. 40% don't remember stuff that they do see..Why I'd like to believe that we live in a utopian world where people will always see the table image that you project, it doesn't actually happen that way most of the time. Oh, and stop trying to give me free lessons on this game, I do well with the current strategy that I have of putting my money in the pot where I know that I'm a favorite and not just playing hoping for coinflips.Unless I feel the need to post again to correct idiotic rebuttal to this post, I'm done with this thread.-fop

haha. I'm starting to get what i expected to find when i posted this. I understand what you're saying about people not recognizing table image and all that. I've been playing long enough on pp to understand that. But in a NL sh and given the hand. It was quite noticeable.I wasn't giving you free lessons or tips for your game. I had no intentions of that.

[Chiggleslap 0]

Thanks for posting here, Egarim. It's been a pleasure :roll:

[Egarim 0]

Thanks for posting here, Egarim. It's been a pleasure :roll:

haha, I can hear the click of the add button for buddy list.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Egarim, I understand that you're doing this for meta-game purposes.I'm still not completely sure how you're able to rule out a set or an overpair or even a freeroll (AT), but I guess your read was right.Also noticed that he's kicking your ass if he shows up with As5s.The reasons you're getting grief about this hand:1) it seems like you're bragging2) you're exploiting an extremely tiny edge on what has to be an almost perfect read

[allinbluff35 0]

you should move up to 5/10 NL 6 max on party

[custom36 4]

haha. I'm starting to get what i expected to find when i posted this.

Common sense?

[custom36 4]

OP, you're right. You're an incredible player. You know what game would be perfect for you and your amazing amount of skill?*3/6 Limit Hold'em on PartyPoker*I bet you'd clean it up.

[princeof56k 0]

First let me say that I dont agree with the call.I understand what you're saying about table image, but I dont think you're going to accomplish that here. Even if we assume that table image means anything at 200NL, I'm not sure the move you made would bring the desired effect. To get the table image you are looking for, the better move wouldve been for YOU to push. First you might take it down right there. Second if he calls, you get the table image that you will push with A high. This will give you a lot more action when you flop the nuts and then decide to push. You calling here gives the impression that you are a caller and almost guarantees you that someone will push all-in agianst you hoping you will call (and that cant be a good thing when you're at the table).When you look at your opponents play, his move was much better for table image. He pushed with a flush draw. To people at the table it appears that he made a bold bluff to take the pot. In reality, he still gave himself plenty of outs to win and improves his table to image to where people think he might be bluffing when he pushes. This causes people to call his all-in in this exact situation when he flops a set of 2's. Hey they might even call him with Ace high :)Point being, there's a big difference between pushing and calling. And I think pushing will produce the table image you want. Of course that assumes table image is important at 200NL and I dont think it is. Against a tight player here calling his all-in is bad no matter how you look at. Even pushing against a tight player is better here as hes unlikely to call and if he does call you will get the table image you desire.

[Egarim 0]

First let me say that I dont agree with the call.I understand what you're saying about table image, but I dont think you're going to accomplish that here. Even if we assume that table image means anything at 200NL, I'm not sure the move you made would bring the desired effect. To get the table image you are looking for, the better move wouldve been for YOU to push. First you might take it down right there. Second if he calls, you get the table image that you will push with A high. This will give you a lot more action when you flop the nuts and then decide to push. You calling here gives the impression that you are a caller and almost guarantees you that someone will push all-in agianst you hoping you will call (and that cant be a good thing when you're at the table).When you look at your opponents play, his move was much better for table image. He pushed with a flush draw. To people at the table it appears that he made a bold bluff to take the pot. In reality, he still gave himself plenty of outs to win and improves his table to image to where people think he might be bluffing when he pushes. This causes people to call his all-in in this exact situation when he flops a set of 2's. Hey they might even call him with Ace high :)Point being, there's a big difference between pushing and calling. And I think pushing will produce the table image you want. Of course that assumes table image is important at 200NL and I dont think it is. Against a tight player here calling his all-in is bad no matter how you look at. Even pushing against a tight player is better here as hes unlikely to call and if he does call you will get the table image you desire.

You bring up a very good point. I completely understand what you're saying about calling and not raising. But there are some differences in what you're saying. First, yes there will be people that push in against me wanting me to call, but now i'll know where they're at. If they're pushing allin on flops (which is quite an overbet) this is great for me. Anyone that does that doesn't last long. Now, I can pick up a lot of pots as no one is going to try to bluff me.As for my opponents play, I don't think he'll get any bluffing image. He had the nutflush draw and people at 200NL love their flushes. It's a semi-bluff, but the players don't see it as much of a bluff at all. I don't think he would get any more action with a set of 2s than he would normally depending on what other's had. Another thing, He would never play a set this way. A typical fairly tight player doesn't go allin on the flop with a set vastly overbetting the pot. They'll try to get money out of you. And he certainly would'nt do it with top pair or even an overpair as he has to fear my overpair. He's not going to risk 120 for 27 being dominated.

[guinevar 0]

I think Eddie's previous post about "not going to put $100 into a pot as a coinflip" is a good one.In SS1 at the beginning of the 7 card stud chapter before Chip takes over Doyle remarks about a time when he was heads up with a drunken maniac who had 4-flush showing. Doyle had a hand that was about an 11-10 favorite over the 4-flush, and he got all the money in when the maniac hit his flush.The point is, if this guy is a bad player and if you have a stone cold read on the player that he just has a flush draw, even if you know his exact cards, you're only a 2% favorite to win. Why not wait for a chance when you're a much better favorite to win, if you believe your relative skill will win over this player in the longrun?Against a GREAT (and I mean GREAT) player who made this play and you had an absolute STONE COLD read that he had what he had, then this would be a forgivable play.I'm not sure you'll be able to have such a read on a player online. Also, I doubt you'll find such a player worthy of making this play on a 200NL table at Party.

[guinevar 0]

Egarim, I understand that you're doing this for meta-game purposes.I'm still not completely sure how you're able to rule out a set or an overpair or even a freeroll (AT), but I guess your read was right.Also noticed that he's kicking your ass if he shows up with As5s.The reasons you're getting grief about this hand:1) it seems like you're bragging2) you're exploiting an extremely tiny edge on what has to be an almost perfect read

Cobalt said what I said, I just used more words.

[goose 0]

stupid call.

[Whiskey16 1]

I just don't understand the argument that you know the odds, but still feel the call was correct. Based on the range of hands that everyone, including you, seems to feel he could have, the absolute best you could hope for is a 52% favorite by your calculation. Knowing that, are the pot odds worth the call? The read turned out to be right, and the turn and river blanked, but for the times that you're wrong and are way behind, and then the 48% of the time you get beat, doesn't that transfer to a negative EV in the long run if you continue to make that call?