whoa! small pot action! (limit he)

[akishore 0]

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with [Kh], [Td]. 2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (4 SB) [8h], [2c], [4s] (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.Turn: (2 BB) [Ts] (4 players)SB bets, Button folds, SB calls.River: (6 BB) [4c] (2 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Hero folds.mommy, it just went by so fast...did i play it right?aseem

[Vade 0]

Yeah you did as frustrating as it seems.Any four beats you, and that's the most likely.

[JesseW316 0]

What did you put him on that made you fold? I say call him. He might have you beat with a 4, or he might pay you off with a weaker 10.This is probably the only time I will say this all night but...that was a BAD laydown.

[Actuary 3]

you can tell me why my analyiss is wring, while I take a shower... :-) I'd prefer a raise when you come in first, unsuited with high cardsFlop, coolTurn, coolRiver, hoping to get called by a weaker 10?Folded a 9:1 pot...you must've put him on trip 4's It didn't occur to you that he bet the turn with something..and a 4 was on the flop..and no one else had bet at it...I just say this because, if you are not going to take the free showdown, then call the raise...or at least that's my instinct. So, conversely, don't bet if you're folding to a raise..when you have POSITION! - just CHECKCheck behind on River. Not enough worse hands are calling that bet to offset the chance villan is setting the agressor (you) up. And no better hands are folding.

[akishore 0]

ah i forgot to include reads.i don't remember the exact numbers, but i remember specifically thinking that i have three quite loose players on my left, so there was no point in raising to steal with a weak offsuit hand (not even big offsuit broadway).i also remember on the river that that river card was a little scary. i planned on betting to get value from weaker pairs or a weaker 10.most small-stakes players are pretty straightforward, and i had no reason to believe that this guy wasn't either (i didn't have a read on him in the straightforward/tricky dimension).when he checkraised the river, it was a very fast checkraise also, and unless the guy is specifically tricky and is that confident he can get me to fold, he HAS to have it on the river.what can i beat that's strong enough to checkraise the river?i actually like actuary's line... if you would hate getting raised, just check. although in this case, i told myself to bet for value and to fold to a raise, so i didn't mind getting raised all that much.thoughts?aseem

[Actuary 3]

right on que..i'm out of the shower!no additional thoughts...I don't like Bet/Fold in position, your hand has sd value..so nothing new from me...

[akishore 0]

right on que..i'm out of the shower!no additional thoughts...I don't like Bet/Fold in position, your hand has sd value..so nothing new from me...

you don't think it's good enough to value bet?aseem

[Abbaddabba 0]

Against loose players, i would think that it is.Anyone calling with a weak pair on the turn with such a small pot will almost certainly call the river bet unimproved.

[harvey 0]

It would be common in a short handed game to bet the four on the flop. Especially if you had any type of read on his aggression, I would discount the possibilty of a four slightly. If you planned on staying at this table for awhile, I'd make the call. I know clicking-tells are somewhat unreliable, but in a short handed game knowing what a fast-click usually means from a player can be useful in future tough decisions.. I have found that most players don't vary much, they either fast click with a strong hand or fast click trying to represent the card that just hit.Little bits of information can be so valuable in a short handed game, where trickery and psychological warefare is more common (compared to a full ring), and you're garaunteed to be heads up against the same guy a bunch of times.Both of those reasons combined with the 7:1 odds I would make the call, and keep the hand in mind for the future. Put me down for bet/call on the river.

[akishore 0]

this table was pretty passive...i'm pretty sure it was very common for a 4 to check the flop.aseem

[monoatomic 0]

I would have checked behind him in this spot.If I held K4 suited or A4 off in the SB I'd see a flop. I wouldn't have bet that flop, and when it went check around I would have lead the turn and probably called the raise thinking you are now on a draw or trying to push me out of the hand with high cards. I think with your raise on the turn, he's check/raising the river with a set.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

i don't remember the exact numbers, but i remember specifically thinking that i have three quite loose players on my left, so there was no point in raising to steal with a weak offsuit hand (not even big offsuit broadway).

Even if the players are loose, such that a steal is unlikely to work, why not raise PF for value? You'll have good position, and quite possibly the best hand.Having played it the way you did, I like the bet/fold on the river (assuming that the opponent is unlikely to c/r bluff). His turn bet could be an 8, a worse T, or a mid pocket pair, and I think all these hands call on the river.

[Actuary 3]

my limted experience aside..bet folding frustrates me.Does it not set you up for future bluffs?SB may have had an 8 and figured he was beat.So he knows you'll call/raise a bet..and he loses one more bet, so in order to win the 6+1 more he risks a check raise. I easily see villan bluffing.Hence, check behind IF YOU ARE FOLDING TO A RAISE IN POSITIONhow would this this work...say:1. villan has an 82. villan knows you have a 103. pot is 6 bb after turn If villan bets, he knows you'll call/raise and he knows he loses 1 betEV = -1If Villan checks/folds,EV = 0If villan C/R, lets assign percentages to futre moves.40% You check behind , Villan =060% You bet, Villan raises, 20% You 3-bet, villan folds, Villan = -2 30% You call, Villan -2 50% You fold, Villan +7EV of Villan C/R = 0.4 * 0 + 0.6*(0.2*-2 + 0.3*-2 + 0.5*7) = 2.5Plus, I always feel bet/folding makes me a mark.For the C/R to be -EV for him, you would have to call/3-bet 7/9 times.It's too much to risk for a chance to get one more bet from him...CHECK.(I don't know...but it sounds good)

[KDawgCometh 2]

why are you just limping PF, raise that, bet the flop to steal it and I'm caling his CR there, I think he might do that with 2nd pair there. BUt again, you need to attack the blinds any chance you get with those types of hands

[MrNiceGuy 0]

my limted experience aside..bet folding frustrates me.Does it not set you up for future bluffs?SB may have had an 8 and figured  he was beat.So he knows you'll call/raise a bet..and he loses one more bet, so in order to win the 6+1 more he risks a check raise.  I easily see villan bluffing.Hence, check behind IF YOU ARE FOLDING TO A RAISE IN POSITIONhow would this this work...say:1. villan has an 82. villan knows you have a 103. pot is 6 bb after turn If villan bets, he knows you'll call/raise and he knows he loses 1 betEV = -1If Villan checks/folds,EV = 0If villan C/R, lets assign percentages to futre moves.40% You check behind , Villan =060% You bet, Villan raises,           20% You 3-bet, villan folds,  Villan = -2           30% You call,  Villan -2           50% You fold, Villan  +7EV of Villan C/R = 0.4 * 0 + 0.6*(0.2*-2 + 0.3*-2 + 0.5*7) = 2.5Plus, I always feel bet/folding makes me a mark.For the C/R to be -EV for him, you would have to call/3-bet  7/9 times.It's too much to risk for a chance to get one more bet from him...CHECK.(I don't know...but it sounds good)

Here's my (non-expert) take:If you fold too frequently, and your opponents are paying attention, you'll start to get bluffed.But (1) typically at the microlimits, most opponents are not paying attention.(2) you only want to bet/fold either bluffs or hands that are good enough to bet for value (i.e. not marginal hands that would only be called by better hands). And you will bet/call (or bet/3-bet with your very best hands), so it's not like you're necessarily folding to a raise whenever you bet.And (3) at the microlimits, people call too much, and as a result, people don't bluff as often. But of course if you pay attention, you can identify the opponents who frequently bluff-raise, and make a note of them.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I'm caling his CR there, I think he might do that with 2nd pair there.

After thinking about it some more, I agree, probably call the river here. He's unlikely to put you on a 4 after your turn raise, so he may be bluffing or value betting a worse T.But I think you'll be good here often enough to justify bet/calling the river rather than just checking behind.

[akishore 0]

i don't think your average pokerstars 50c/$1 fish is smart/advanced/tricky enough to check/raise that river with anything that i can beat...............aseem

[MrNiceGuy 0]

i don't think your average pokerstars 50c/$1 fish is smart/advanced/tricky enough to check/raise that river with anything that i can beat...............aseem

The average villain won't - but you only need to pick off a bluff (or an overplayed hand) 10% of the time here to make calling correct. I think you'll pick something off a bit more often than that (but I'm not sure).

[Steppin Razor 0]

I think Actuary hit it on the head - raise PF. It doesn't matter if your raise doesn't knock anyone out, it gives you the chance at the pot w/a continuation bet on the flop. You could have easily gotten rid of a pair of 4s on the flop if you had raised PF. They may not put you on a pocket pair, but they're gonna know you will make them put in a lot of bets with a crap pair of 4s.Your raise on the turn shows TP - it looks like you were just waiting to hit one of your cards and then did w/the 10. That means the raise by the SB either means he can beat top pair, or he sees an opportunity to bluff you off TP with the board pairing. Whether he is capable of such a bluff is read dependent. Otherwise, this guy could even have 10/4. I've seen enough passive play with the nuts at .5/1. I don't think the pot is too big to fold so your fold is probably not that bad, but I could just as easily call to look him up. So it all depends on your read.

[justblaze 0]

geez, that PF limp is brutal.

[Briguy 0]

I wouldn't be too surprised to see a flopped set -> rivered house/quads there. SB easily could've been going for a flop C/R, and realized that he had to bet out the turn to make any money off his hand after the flop was checked through.Or, he may have been making a move. We'll never know.

geez, that PF limp is brutal.

[KDawgCometh 2]

i don't think your average pokerstars 50c/$1 fish is smart/advanced/tricky enough to check/raise that river with anything that i can beat...............aseem

yeah, but your dumbass limped PF, so what hand do you think they might put you on, certainly not what you have. to beat a dead horse, raise it PF

[akishore 0]

you only need to pick off a bluff (or an overplayed hand) 10% of the time here to make calling correct. I think you'll pick something off a bit more often than that (but I'm not sure).

raise PF. It doesn't matter if your raise doesn't knock anyone out, it gives you the chance at the pot w/a continuation bet on the flop. You could have easily gotten rid of a pair of 4s on the flop if you had raised PF. They may not put you on a pocket pair, but they're gonna know you will make them put in a lot of bets with a crap pair of 4s.

geez, that PF limp is brutal.

yeah, but your dumbass limped PF, so what hand do you think they might put you on, certainly not what you have.

1. kdawg, you're one that advocates limping with offsuit hands as big as KQ (even AQ?) after a few limpers.if i'm pretty sure that all three players behind me will cold-call if i raise, and that i have virtually no chance of stealing the blinds (not to mention the fact that i'll almost never pick up the pot with a continuation bet on the flop against these loose players), why would i raise a hand as bad as KTo??it seriously isn't strong enough to have a significant pot equity edge against three hands, and even if it does, it's a marginal offsuit hand that i'm building a big pot for.i understand that this is shorthanded and you generally don't want to be open-limping, but open-raising every hand i play isn't my style in these loose shorthanded games where almost every flop is four-handed. i find that blatant aggression doesn't work well against loose players that never fold to flop continuation bets. it's like constantly bluffing calling stations.again, if i'm pretty sure all three players behind me will cold-call and that i will almost never be able to pick up the pot with a continuation bet, why would i raise a hand as marginal as king-ten offsuit here?2. i realize i was getting 9-to-1 on the final call, but please, everyone needs to stop blindly thinking that pot odds after X-to-1 are good enough to pick off a bluff.situations vary, and this checkraise is almost never a bluff here--almost no 50c/$1 pokerstars is that tricky! yes, i was getting 9-to-1, and i strongly estimated that i wouldn't pick off a bluff here 10% of the time.and kdawg, again, your average pokerstars 50c/$1 opponent isn't going to be thinking about what hands i have because i limped pre-flop instead of raising. are you serious?if i was getting something like 14-to-1, the decision would be closer and calling would be more correct, but 9-to-1 pot odds wasn't high enough for this case for me. why is that wrong?3. LOOSE PLAYERS. continuation bets _didn't work_ in this game. these are players that went to showdown everytime they liked the flop.i understand that proper play is often to raise with only one player and the blinds to act behind you if your hand is playable, but please, stop thinking blindly that this works in every game.to use MrNiceGuy's example... if the big blind had a pair of 4's, he was going to showdown unimproved. i'm not kidding.anyway, i'm going to search for this hand history and find the actual numbers on these guys to help my points.aseem

[justblaze 0]

aseem, i agree an open-raise isnt in order here. i just fold, though, instead of limping. i think limping is asking for trouble.

[KDawgCometh 2]

1. kdawg, you're one that advocates limping with offsuit hands as big as KQ (even AQ?) after a few limpers.

major difference. when yo have three limpers to you and you are sitting in the CO, you will then be sure that the pot will be 5 way. Here you have position(which you would in the several limpers situation), but you can control how many should be in the pot. You can't predict if they will call or not. YOu allowed the button to be in, and you let the sb complete for just a half bet. By raising you can probably push out the button, and at least take control of the pot. Your hand is a favorite over three random hands, so you need to push there. Giving me that question of what I advocate and the situation here are two completely different things. If I was on the button and had a pair like 55, I would limp because of the blinds being loose and play my hand for pair value, maybe the same would go with Ahigh in which I would play it for high card value. But you have two broadway cards here and I'm opening with that hand in late position all day longassem, you are over analyzing this situation way too much with all of the loose player stuff and what not. THe fact is your hand is a favorite over a random hand, why would you not raise here, grow a pair man and get aggressive. YOu basically gave up on the pot right there