A Mosque On The Twin Towers Site?

[Balloon guy 158]

We sold Saddam a lot of weapons. We propped up a lot of dictators.

People sent their kids to be alter boys, did that make them 10% responsible?Besides, we were fighting the Russians

[CaneBrain 95]

People sent their kids to be alter boys, did that make them 10% responsible?Besides, we were fighting the Russians

10% is 10%. Things like this are complicated. At the end of the day are we more than minutely responsible? Of course not. But it is a factor, definitely. We were fighting the Russians and we did some things for the sake of expediency that had some collateral consequences in our relationship with the Muslim world.Does that mean we deserved 9/11? Of course not.....that would be as ridiculous as suggesting we deserved 9/11 because we tolerate homosexuality. But, if it makes us re-examine some past foreign policy mistakes and make sure not to repeat them......that's just being smart.

[vbnautilus 48]

Let's get back on topic.I understand that you don't believe in anyone that is Islamic being moderate or having good intentions for their life, family or the world in which we live. I understand that when many Islamics read or see Christians with this view they probably think the same thing, and vice versa.As an athiest, we are the minority sitting back watching the hate filled rhetoric between the two largest religons and it makes me shake my head in disgust. I am only left to encourage the moderates, the people of both "faiths" to follow in the actually morality set forth by such faiths before both sides get hell bent on destroying the world in which I live.I have "faith" in humanity in that I think the majority of the people, regardless of the ingrained religous doctrine they were brought up to believe, actually want a peaceful society and a hopeful future for their children. The ability to work and provide for their family and be free to seek that path is paramount and the United States is a beacon of hope for many around the world to achieve that goal, or to model their society after. I don't believe your refusal to encourage the good in people of all faiths or non-faiths will help achieve that goal.

I think you really need to be open to the possibility that there are reasons other than "hate" to have a legitimate position against this mosque. Whether these specific individuals think that they want peace is really not the issue. The are spreading an ideology which results in the opposite of peace. Even with the best of intentions, they are making a mistake. If Islam is such an antidote to violence, why has it failed so miserably to bring peace on earth where it exists? If they are so peace-causing why are they not able to stop all the violence that is done in their name?Islam does not bring with it peace, freedom, and equality when it spreads to a new place, and this isn't because of "extremists".

[LongLiveYorke 38]

10% is 10%. Things like this are complicated. At the end of the day are we more than minutely responsible? Of course not. But it is a factor, definitely. We were fighting the Russians and we did some things for the sake of expediency that had some collateral consequences in our relationship with the Muslim world.Does that mean we deserved 9/11? Of course not.....that would be as ridiculous as suggesting we deserved 9/11 because we tolerate homosexuality. But, if it makes us re-examine some past foreign policy mistakes and make sure not to repeat them......that's just being smart.

This sounds like atheist talk to me. We don't take kindly to your god-hating ways around here. We support Jesus' peace and love. Burn him at the steak!

[CaneBrain 95]

This sounds like atheist talk to me. We don't take kindly to your god-hating ways around here. We support Jesus' peace and love. Burn him at the steak!

Heh.For the record, I do believe in God but I don't believe in religion. Don't know what tag that gives me.

[Balloon guy 158]

This sounds like atheist talk to me. We don't take kindly to your god-hating ways around here. We support Jesus' peace and love. Burn him at the steak!

Stake

[CaneBrain 95]

Stake

I liked his way better.

[Balloon guy 158]

10% is 10%. Things like this are complicated. At the end of the day are we more than minutely responsible? Of course not. But it is a factor, definitely. We were fighting the Russians and we did some things for the sake of expediency that had some collateral consequences in our relationship with the Muslim world.Does that mean we deserved 9/11? Of course not.....that would be as ridiculous as suggesting we deserved 9/11 because we tolerate homosexuality. But, if it makes us re-examine some past foreign policy mistakes and make sure not to repeat them......that's just being smart.

I agree 100% with this.I wish America was perfect, but we have done some dumb things.The world is imperfect, we are bound to be imperfect as well.But at the end of the day, I believe we WANT to do what's right. We just don't always accept that sometimes, other people don't want freedom.

[Balloon guy 158]

I liked his way better.

I liked that he tried to make a reverse double post to imply one thing, but mean another, acting all college taught and stuff, then misspelled a word.But I also like him, so I will admit that I am purposefully being ornery.

[mk 11]

I wish America was perfect, but we have done some dumb things.

That should be "were perfect".FOX NEWS FTL AGAIN

[Balloon guy 158]

That should be "were perfect".FOX NEWS FTL AGAIN

I've heard it both ways.

[strategy 4]

I've heard it both ways.

the correct way and the incorrect way?

[Balloon guy 158]

the correct way and the incorrect way?

Depends on whether you believe this country is perfect now but not in the past, or is not perfect now and never has been.You know, a true American or a commie pinko lib.

[brvheart 1,757]

Apparently it means I'm giving you too much benefit of the doubt. I was assuming that your post was relevant to the discussion.I think you're perfectly aware that replying in the manner you did implies a rebuttal, but because there's no logic you can actual spell out, you just make the implication and then play stupid.

My post caused about thirty five pages of posts, including many from you, so I guess I did add something.Also, I wasn't making any kind of rebuttal. As far as I can tell the best thing that came out of it was annoying you.

For the record, I do believe in God but I don't believe in religion. Don't know what tag that gives me.

Christian.

I pass judgement on the paper because their reporters are terrible and their editor has no idea what comprises a good daily newspaper. I don't care about their editorial stance, I was simply saying that including the Trib in the list of the Top 5 Most Liberal newspapers in the country, when their statement of principles says basically the EXACT OPPOSITE, is completely absurd, and shows that BG's little list was made by people who are either rocks with mouths or evil.

Seems reasonable. You live there, so know better than I do.

[BaseJester 1]

I understand that as an atheist you are unable to understand what Christians think and so you fill this gap with the worst example you can think of, otherwise you will be forced to accept that atheism is a parasite on society, only surviving in cultures built on the Christian foundation of tolerance.Atheism doesn't really contribute much to society, never has. Without the good graces of Christians countries, atheist would be rounded up and killed by many religions.

So, your religion is running a protection racket?Gee whiz, thanks for not killing me.

[BaseJester 1]

Atheism is a religion in fact in this country as determined by the IRS granting the church of Atheism tax exempt status.

Heh.For the record, I do believe in God but I don't believe in religion. Don't know what tag that gives me.

Christian.

wtf.

[Balloon guy 158]

wtf.

I am always surprised at how many people who believe in the notion that repetition becomes facts never seem to see pattern of my post like these. Someone posts something irrational, with vitriol and no truth, so I respond with a post mirroring theirs with a reversed bogeyman, huge hyperbole and almost exactly the same tone. I only use more actual facts.Then someone like you tries to argue with me about the tone and the logic of my post.It's like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I understand that as an atheist you are unable to understand what Christians think and so you fill this gap with the worst example you can think of, otherwise you will be forced to accept that atheism is a parasite on society, only surviving in cultures built on the Christian foundation of tolerance.

The fact that I was raised and attended Catholic schools besides having a lifelong interest in philosophy gives me more than enough ability to understand what Christians think. The Christian foundation of tolerance? The same Christianity that spurned the Dark Ages? You know that period on history where people lived in fear of losing thier soul to eternal hell and using your mind got you killed. Where for nearly a thousand years after 400AD after helping destroy the Romans, the only advancements were the windmill and water wheel? Where suggesting that the earth wasn't flat got you hung by order of the pope, who was apparently to busy screwing his daughter to be bothered by facts. That tolerance?

Atheism doesn't really contribute much to society, never has. Without the good graces of Christians countries, atheist would be rounded up and killed by many religions.

Yes, I do know how Christians and other religons like to round up and kill people that dissagree with them. History is fraught with examples. That is the cycle athiesm is attempting to break, finally, thanks to science and logic and reason.

The fact is that your side's hate filled rhetoric about Christians is designed to sell books to the sheep of your side is obvious to those of us who think and to those who publish books.

Oh you mean books like the bible? But see the difference is the books you are refering to are called science books. Your side hates it when we discredit your phony, non-factual books, that echo with the sounds of salesmen. Fact has always been a pain in the ass to religon.

Glen Beck's recent rally on faith and America brought pastors, rabbis and immans together on the stage to pray for this country. Your side hated it, made up lies about it, and mocked it. And called Beck intolerant while you did it.

Look, people only called Beck intolerent because of all the intolerent things he said. I am always for religous factions getting together and singing kumbaya, even if it is strictly for publicity or money grubbing. Now why don't he bring that crowd to park 51 and do the same? You know, really show his intent to show good will and intolerence?

I base my beliefs on the realities of the world, your are based on a non-existent one where sucking up to the people that killed us will make them like us.

I don't know why you insist on doing this over and over. Quit lumping one billion people into a group of terrorists!! Aside from that, I am not asking anyone to suck up to muslims, nor am a I asking them to suck up to Christians. I am asking you both to abide by your religons and seek peace and quit hating everyone that isn't the same skin color or speaks a different language. How difficult is it to give up hatred for you guys? It's like a uniting force swirling into a witch hunt searching for some people to burn at the stake; madness fed on fear and lies.

I don't care if it offends them that their cultural center/mosque offends us. Because there are 55 other Mosques in Manhattan that I don't care about, I can hold this position, and not be intolerant. Your side cannot understand that you can be against something without being against something else.

Oh bullshit. You're only against this mosque because of the hate filled rhetoric and lies that the religous right has been spewing or you it would just be the 56th manhatten mosque you didn't know or care about.

You are also intolerant of the feelings of the families of the firefighters and police and office workers who died in 9-11. You brand them as racist islamiphobes because the action of some of their people resulted in the deaths of their loved ones, so they can have an opinion about the callous thinking that went into the decision to anger so many people.

And what about the firefighters and family victims that support it? What about the majority of people from Manhatten where it is being built that support it? What about the local commisioner's 27-1 vote in favor of building it? I thought you were all for state and local rights? Why are you so against their rights or is that only if it's convenient? And also, I have seen many interviews with local ministers, priests and rabbi's that support it. How is it that you were not worried about offending one billion people in one statement, but worry about a offending a few in the next statement?

The fact that they are claiming this is a place to bridge the gap between faiths, while ignoring that most countries they run have outlawed other faiths shows that they have to earn the right to be believed, we don't have to earn the right to not believe them.

Okay, let's see. What can Imam Faisal due to earn your trust that he is for a multi-cultural society? Well, he could start a organization in his city promoting it and run it for over twenty years earning national acclaim. He could work for the President, FBI, and state department promoting peace and fighting terrorism. Hey, he could write a book promoting peace between cultures. Oh, I know, how about build a multi-cultural facility that is the beacon of intolerence a few blocks from ground zero that shows the terrorist factions in Islam that they didn't succeed in breeding hatred! You know, BG, to be honest, I don't know what else this guy could possibly fucking do to earn your respect so I am left with the option of thinking that maybe "he"isn't the goddam problem.

Last note, atheist are largely bad dressers.

Says the big fat balding guy with a stubby cigar in his mouth and his pants half zipped.

[BaseJester 1]

I am always surprised at how many people who believe in the notion that repetition becomes facts never seem to see pattern of my post like these. Someone posts something irrational, with vitriol and no truth, so I respond with a post mirroring theirs with a reversed bogeyman, huge hyperbole and almost exactly the same tone. I only use more actual facts.Then someone like you tries to argue with me about the tone and the logic of my post.

I understood that your post was snide in response to Rolls the Bones' post with a similar tone.I don't see his logic that is parallel to your statement that atheism is a religion due the IRS ruling, the logic that you apparently want to mock by making this statementDo you believe atheism is a religion? Why or why not?

[Balloon guy 158]

The fact that I was raised and attended Catholic schools besides having a lifelong interest in philosophy gives me more than enough ability to understand what Christians think. The Christian foundation of tolerance? The same Christianity that spurned the Dark Ages? You know that period on history where people lived in fear of losing thier soul to eternal hell and using your mind got you killed. Where for nearly a thousand years after 400AD after helping destroy the Romans, the only advancements were the windmill and water wheel? Where suggesting that the earth wasn't flat got you hung by order of the pope, who was apparently to busy screwing his daughter to be bothered by facts. That tolerance?Yes, I do know how Christians and other religons like to round up and kill people that dissagree with them. History is fraught with examples. That is the cycle athiesm is attempting to break, finally, thanks to science and logic and reason.Oh you mean books like the bible? But see the difference is the books you are refering to are called science books. Your side hates it when we discredit your phony, non-factual books, that echo with the sounds of salesmen. Fact has always been a pain in the ass to religon.Look, people only called Beck intolerent because of all the intolerent things he said. I am always for religous factions getting together and singing kumbaya, even if it is strictly for publicity or money grubbing. Now why don't he bring that crowd to park 51 and do the same? You know, really show his intent to show good will and intolerence?I don't know why you insist on doing this over and over. Quit lumping one billion people into a group of terrorists!! Aside from that, I am not asking anyone to suck up to muslims, nor am a I asking them to suck up to Christians. I am asking you both to abide by your religons and seek peace and quit hating everyone that isn't the same skin color or speaks a different language. How difficult is it to give up hatred for you guys? It's like a uniting force swirling into a witch hunt searching for some people to burn at the stake; madness fed on fear and lies.Oh bullshit. You're only against this mosque because of the hate filled rhetoric and lies that the religous right has been spewing or you it would just be the 56th manhatten mosque you didn't know or care about.And what about the firefighters and family victims that support it? What about the majority of people from Manhatten where it is being built that support it? What about the local commisioner's 27-1 vote in favor of building it? I thought you were all for state and local rights? Why are you so against their rights or is that only if it's convenient? And also, I have seen many interviews with local ministers, priests and rabbi's that support it. How is it that you were not worried about offending one billion people in one statement, but worry about a offending a few in the next statement? Okay, let's see. What can Imam Faisal due to earn your trust that he is for a multi-cultural society? Well, he could start a organization in his city promoting it and run it for over twenty years earning national acclaim. He could work for the President, FBI, and state department promoting peace and fighting terrorism. Hey, he could write a book promoting peace between cultures. Oh, I know, how about build a multi-cultural facility that is the beacon of intolerence a few blocks from ground zero that shows the terrorist factions in Islam that they didn't succeed in breeding hatred! You know, BG, to be honest, I don't know what else this guy could possibly fucking do to earn your respect so I am left with the option of thinking that maybe "he"isn't the goddam problem. Says the big fat balding guy with a stubby cigar in his mouth and his pants half zipped.

I was going to refute all these silly points, since they are so badly argued, are mostly straw men, and completely ignorant of history, but instead I will just point out that I am not balding.And your hatred makes you unable to think very well.Good luck.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I think you really need to be open to the possibility that there are reasons other than "hate" to have a legitimate position against this mosque. Whether these specific individuals think that they want peace is really not the issue. The are spreading an ideology which results in the opposite of peace. Even with the best of intentions, they are making a mistake. If Islam is such an antidote to violence, why has it failed so miserably to bring peace on earth where it exists? If they are so peace-causing why are they not able to stop all the violence that is done in their name?Islam does not bring with it peace, freedom, and equality when it spreads to a new place, and this isn't because of "extremists".

Look, I am not pro-islamist obviously, but what is your solution?I posted a letter written by a 20 year old on the subject in the religion forum. His thoughts are that the education and the ability of the internet is changing how young people approach and view religon. I would hope that since most Islamic cultures that breed violence are the poorest and uneducated, we can start there. We can also work on the moderates through education. Knowledge is our best weapon.

[Balloon guy 158]

Look, I am not pro-islamist obviously, but what is your solution?I posted a letter written by a 20 year old on the subject in the religion forum. His thoughts are that the education and the ability of the internet is changing how young people approach and view religon. I would hope that since most Islamic cultures that breed violence are the poorest and uneducated, we can start there. We can also work on the moderates through education. Knowledge is our best weapon.

Aren't most of the leaders of Al Qaeda rich and well educated?Didn't many of the 9-11 highjackers have middle class childhoods with educated parents?Doesn't your fix really mean your hope, because there is no data to back up that poor and uneducated equals terrorist in any other religion.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Aren't most of the leaders of Al Qaeda rich and well educated?Didn't many of the 9-11 highjackers have middle class childhoods with educated parents?Doesn't your fix really mean your hope, because there is no data to back up that poor and uneducated equals terrorist in any other religion.

Hell, Osama was rich as heck and he still wanted to blow us up. Poverty leads to internal strife: rebellion, gangs, and things like that. You need to be a really special kind of crazy to want to fly over the seas and kill people you've never met.

[Balloon guy 158]

Hell, Osama was rich as heck and he still wanted to blow us up. Poverty leads to internal strife: rebellion, gangs, and things like that. You need to be a really special kind of crazy to want to fly over the seas and kill people you've never met.

The crime rate during the depression was pretty low.Maybe it's our Christian religion that makes poor people not strap on bombs and kill Jewish children at bus stops?

[Roll the Bones 74]

I was going to refute all these silly points, since they are so badly argued, are mostly straw men, and completely ignorant of history, but instead I will just point out that I am not balding.And your hatred makes you unable to think very well.Good luck.

Wait! Your Newt Gingrich?Gingrich: The Government Should Stop the "Ground Zero Mosque" Constitution-thumping conservative Newt Gingrich announced Wednesday that he believes the Park51 project (also known as the "Ground Zero mosque") should be stopped at any cost—and it's the government that should do it. According to Talking Points Memo, most New Yorkers want the development moved, but "the majority also acknowledges the developers' right to build there if they want." Not Gingrich. In a radio interview, he said Congress should intervene, declaring Ground Zero a "national battlefield memorial" because "this is a war." If Congress fails to act, Gingrich thinks the state should muscle the project to the ground. "The Attorney General of New York, Andrew Cuomo, could intervene," Gingrich said. "Frankly he has the ability to slow it down for decades if he wants to." And if Cuomo won't put on his big boy pants, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg should abrogate everything he's said about the mosque in the last two months and work to halt its construction. "There are a number of different steps that could be taken," the small-government conservative said. "There's no reason this has to occur and whether it's city, state, or federal, there are plenty of ways for America to stop it."