A Mosque On The Twin Towers Site?

[BaseJester 1]

We meet them at their level and they lose. We meet them at yours, and they win.

And we are not beheading any muslims who come to America to help during natural disasters.

Why not? What did you mean by "meet them at their level"?

[Roll the Bones 74]

Flawed for sure. I'm not protecting Christianity and Judaism. They all need to go. But I don't think it follows that they are absolutely equal in the harm they are causing. The bottom line is, its an empirical fact right now that Islam is creating more violence worldwide than christianity, buddhism, or hinduism. Thinking about why is an interesting exercise. I have some thoughts about it, but I don't claim to have all the answers. For one thing, Christians have explicitly rejected much of the law of the old testament since it was superseded by Jesus, who is a much better role model than mohammed. They also don't have all the great perks like being rewarded with virgins in heaven and whatnot for taking out non-believers.More "peace" from the Koran: [3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

I understand where you are coming from on the anti-Islamic view, but I think we differ in the solution. It wasn't long ago that Christians we're every bit as nutty as the current Islamic faith but as Christian society advanced we have seen the radicalism curbed. I think we will see radicalist Islam dwindle as well. I do support the open dialogue and agree that some muslims should speak out but this change isn't going to happen overnight and we need to be realistic about it. Shit, we can't even convince the majority of our population that evolution happened. And though those passages are in the Koran, the vast majority don't believe in acting like terrorists, hell, half of them probably can't even read it and only believe what propoganda that is spewed at them, not unlike half the Americans and their knowledge of the bible who defend their faith.No one wants to see a world war break out, and if Ayn Rand had one thing right, it was to fight with reason first and to use arms to defend yourself last. I trust in the laziness and apathy that culture has wrought upon us and think we need to spread it to Islam.

[loogie 115]

No one wants to see a world war break out

If only I could believe this.

[Roll the Bones 74]

If only I could believe this.

hahaha, good point.So basically, if you believe the mosque is offensive you should protest and try to offend them back?How about we have an open debate between Beck, Imam Faisal and Sam Harris? Hell, let's get the athiest together and protest not only the mosque, but the Christians protesting the mosque! That'll mess with em!

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

I understand where you are coming from on the anti-Islamic view, but I think we differ in the solution. It wasn't long ago that Christians we're every bit as nutty as the current Islamic faith but as Christian society advanced we have seen the radicalism curbed.

So you think we should allow Islam to be the predominant cultural, religious, and political influence in the Western world for a few hundred years and just wait for it to curb itself due to apathy and scientific or technological advancement?

[CaneBrain 95]

So you think we should allow Islam to be the predominant cultural, religious, and political influence in the Western world for a few hundred years and just wait for it to curb itself due to apathy and scientific or technological advancement?

Or we could just give moderate Muslims a chance to partially repudiate the worst aspects of the Koran like Christians and Jews have done with the Old Testament. I don't think we have the same problems the Netherlands or Switzerland does.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

How about we have an open debate between Beck, Imam Faisal and Sam Harris?

Sounds like a great idea:

[vbnautilus 48]

How about we have an open debate between Beck, Imam Faisal and Sam Harris?

SH debated Reza Aslan about the issue, audio here: http://www.scpr.org/programs/patt-morrison...nd-zero-mosque/

[Roll the Bones 74]

So you think we should allow Islam to be the predominant cultural, religious, and political influence in the Western world for a few hundred years and just wait for it to curb itself due to apathy and scientific or technological advancement?

No. I also don't think it's possible for them to be predominant influence in any regard in the US. The constitution curbs their religous freedom when it gets out of hand. Also, a few hundred years is long time in this day and age. Look how different the world is in just the last 20 or 30 years. As we get better at educating children by using techonology and using more effective techniques they are less likely to be radical and more likely to shun the religous beliefs of their parents. The people leading the radical religons are really doing it for money and power, not to get a bunch of virgins when they die. Alot of these problems are due to economics as much as anything, religon is just the tool they use. As the world's youth get educated they are more apt to see through all the bull.

[vbnautilus 48]

No. I also don't think it's possible for them to be predominant influence in any regard in the US. The constitution curbs their religous freedom when it gets out of hand. Also, a few hundred years is long time in this day and age. Look how different the world is in just the last 20 or 30 years. As we get better at educating children by using techonology and using more effective techniques they are less likely to be radical and more likely to shun the religous beliefs of their parents.

Is that why 2/3 of Americans still don't believe in evolution?

The people leading the radical religons are really doing it for money and power, not to get a bunch of virgins when they die.

The people who perform suicide bombings are pretty clear on why they are doing it... and it's not money. They are not trying to be dead, rich people. Osama Bin Laden did not start his mission because he needed money; he already had plenty.

Alot of these problems are due to economics as much as anything, religon is just the tool they use. As the world's youth get educated they are more apt to see through all the bull.

Much of the world's youth is educated in Islamic schools. I don't think they are getting the kind of education that frees their minds.

[Balloon guy 158]

Why not? What did you mean by "meet them at their level"?

They want to kill us, so instead we kill them.Pretty much my opinion on most non-Americans btw.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

They want to kill us, so instead we kill them.Pretty much my opinion on most non-Americans btw.

I knew I should have let you win at pool.

[Balloon guy 158]

Or we could just give moderate Muslims a chance to partially repudiate the worst aspects of the Koran like Christians and Jews have done with the Old Testament. I don't think we have the same problems the Netherlands or Switzerland does.

So in other words: Let's give in to the wishes of the muslims and hope they don't act like the way muslims in other countries that they immigrate into act.I know there is something wrong with that plan..just can't seem to put my falafel on it.

[CaneBrain 95]

So in other words: Let's give in to the wishes of the muslims and hope they don't act like the way muslims in other countries that they immigrate into act.I know there is something wrong with that plan..just can't seem to put my falafel on it.

The problem is the complete and utter ridiculousness of framing it that way......just like I don't assume my new Christian neighbors are going to act like that pastor who wanted to burn the Quran.Letting them build a mosque does not equal "giving in".

[SweetDee 0]

The problem is the complete and utter ridiculousness of framing it that way......just like I don't assume my new Christian neighbors are going to act like that pastor who wanted to burn the Quran.Letting them build a mosque does not equal "giving in".

If your worst worry is a group wanting to burn Qurans you're golden. Not to mention he didn't "act" all that bad. He said he was going to make a statement, the state department and the news shit themselves, and he never even had to make that statement, all he had to do was threaten. It goes to show the power of a few, and have you seen the reaction from the religion of peace? Not so peaceful.As far as "framing it that way", framing it what way? With facts? I read some of this shit and I wonder if you literally just ignore anything that doesn't fit your view, it's no secret what Islams goal is. None whatsoever, you just have to open your eyes. ****, you're a smart guy, I really think this should be beneath you.

[CaneBrain 95]

I read some of this shit and I wonder if you literally just ignore anything that doesn't fit your view, it's no secret what Islams goal is. None whatsoever, you just have to open your eyes. ****, you're a smart guy, I really think this should be beneath you.

re: the bolded: likewise. Half the time I am spent wondering if you are batshit crazy.It's no secret what Al Qaeda's goal is. I don't think you have any idea what Islam's goal is because I doubt they have meetings where they all get together and agree on a goal. There are many Muslims with many goals.I find the goals of a large segment of the Christians in this country to be bigoted, idiotic BS. I don't think that means Christianity has those goals as one collective group. You and BG sound wildly paranoid.

[Mills 0]

What decision are you talking about? The Islamists win when they succeed in spreading their ideology around the globe. It is in Islamic countries where people do not have the freedom to speak their minds, to dress how they choose, or to draw pictures of whomever they want to draw pictures of. I feel like you are making the same mistake that Bloomberg made. There is no one in this thread or anywhere in their right mind that has opposed the legal right of the muslims to build a mosque wherever they want to. That legal right needs to be protected, and has not been endangered for an instant. But that does not mean we need to welcome them with open arms or that we should refrain from protesting what they are doing. Our right to respond is just as important. If the Nazis want to have a parade, we must allow them. But we may jeer at them, and certainly teach our children that what they are doing is unhealthy and destructive. That is what I am advocating. We treat them like NAMBLA: we can't stop you from having your meetings, but that does not mean we condone what you are doing. He can say he is preaching peace all he wants but the fact is that the religious texts unambiguously advocate violence towards non-muslims. It would be like a KKK Grand Master saying his true goal was positive relations among the races. If that's what you really want, then go ahead and repudiate the religious texts. Those muslims who are non-violent because they don't take the religion very seriously. At the root of all of this, of course, is the insanity of accepting an ancient text as infallible truth.e.g. from the Koran: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).etc. etc. This is not cherry-picking; not only is this stuff throughout the koran and hadith, but more importantly it has clearly informed islamic behavior throughout the years and today. This is why it is a lie (and a common one) to say that the "extremists" distort the religion. They really are just following it very accurately.

Yes, you are cherrypickinge.g. from the Koran:Sura 109:In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Merciful. Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your way, and to me mineSurah 2:Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.And so, just as crazy muslims can use the Surah's you cherry picked to justify murder, moderate ones can use the ones I cherry picked to justify peace.Just like with the other Abrahamic faiths...

[Balloon guy 158]

re: the bolded: likewise. Half the time I am spent wondering if you are batshit crazy.It's no secret what Al Qaeda's goal is. I don't think you have any idea what Islam's goal is because I doubt they have meetings where they all get together and agree on a goal. There are many Muslims with many goals.I find the goals of a large segment of the Christians in this country to be bigoted, idiotic BS. I don't think that means Christianity has those goals as one collective group. You and BG sound wildly paranoid.

But you are the one who pointed out that the Netherlands and Switzerland are having problems with muslims, the news is telling about Germany having serious problems.Then you said you hoped we didn't have the same problems as them.I just pointed out that having the same thing happen over and over again and expecting things to be different here, when the catalyst for this entire discussion is their insensitive decision to build this mosque, even though it has been met with an up roar of protest, and their response is they don't care what anyone else thinks.If the muslim population becomes a problem in the near future, nobody will look at this mosque and not point out that we had all the warning signs.

[vbnautilus 48]

And so, just as crazy muslims can use the Surah's you cherry picked to justify murder, moderate ones can use the ones I cherry picked to justify peace.Just like with the other Abrahamic faiths...

The problem is that the passages I quoted actually inform the behavior of muslims throughout the world, and this is a fact that "moderate" muslims have not dealt with by appropriately rejecting or criticizing their own religious doctrines. There needs to be at the very least an acknowledgement that the violence (listed here for just last year alone) does indeed have justifiable theological support from islam.

[Mills 0]

Yea, Islamic extremists use the Koran to justify terrorism, just as certain Christians use the bible to justify denying certain people's their rights or killing abortion doctors.. And there's some stuff about love and tolerance in the bibleAnd there's some stuff about love and tolerence in the KoranThe more you talk about Islam as this 'greater evil' amongst the other religions, the more nonsensical it sounds to me.

[brvheart 1,752]

Yea, Islamic extremists use the Koran to justify terrorism, just as certain Christians use the bible to justify denying certain people's their rights or killing abortion doctors.. And there's some stuff about love and tolerance in the bibleAnd there's some stuff about love and tolerence in the KoranThe more you talk about Islam as this 'greater evil' amongst the other religions, the more nonsensical it sounds to me.

1. What right are Christian's currently denying people? Where are Christian's currently in control? What percentage of 'Christians' in this country do you think are in the far right crazy wing?2. Please quote me some verses that Christian's use to justify killing people. Also, since it was proclaimed so audaciously, I assume you have a link to an arrest report or something where the killer quoted a verse?

[CaneBrain 95]

1. What right are Christian's currently denying people? Where are Christian's currently in control? What percentage of 'Christians' in this country do you think are in the far right crazy wing?2. Please quote me some verses that Christian's use to justify killing people. Also, since it was proclaimed so audaciously, I assume you have a link to an arrest report or something where the killer quoted a verse?

I bet this guy: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-28/justice...ure?_s=PM:CRIMEquoted some scripture during his testimony.Here is some more good stuff: http://www.scottroeder.org/My favorite part: "Our purpose is to be a blessing to our dear brother Scott and biblically defend his actions". I bet biblically includes scripture.Also, they are currently the major impetus behind denying gays the right to marry, Christians are currently in control of the Republican Party, and the percentage is 22%. Hope that helps.

[brvheart 1,752]

I bet this guy: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-28/justice...ure?_s=PM:CRIMEquoted some scripture during his testimony.Here is some more good stuff: http://www.scottroeder.org/My favorite part: "Our purpose is to be a blessing to our dear brother Scott and biblically defend his actions". I bet biblically includes scripture.Also, they are currently the major impetus behind denying gays the right to marry, Christians are currently in control of the Republican Party, and the percentage is 22%. Hope that helps.

bet = assume. Really Cane?"biblically" definitely implies scripture. bolded => Fanatical Christians don't control anything, and your percentage is WAY too high in regards to the crazy right wing Christian sect. Only 52% of the country is protestant Christian. Half of those are crazy extremists?

[CaneBrain 95]

bet = assume. Really Cane?"biblically" definitely implies scripture. bolded => Fanatical Christians don't control anything, and your percentage is WAY too high in regards to the crazy right wing Christian sect. Only 52% of the country is protestant Christian. Half of those are crazy extremists?

That's....that's not how this math works. 22% of all Christians in America are crazy nutter butters. That's my estimation. Not half of all protestants. Don't know how you got there.I know Roeder did use scripture (because I was visiting my brother in law in Kansas when the verdict came in and I read it in the paper) but to this point I can't prove it. Not that it matters clearly he and his supporters believe the bible commands them to kill abortionists. One guy is a small sample size but I am sure there are a few Christians that do what Mills implied. Certainly not many.

[vbnautilus 48]

Yea, Islamic extremists use the Koran to justify terrorism, just as certain Christians use the bible to justify denying certain people's their rights or killing abortion doctors..And there's some stuff about love and tolerance in the bibleAnd there's some stuff about love and tolerence in the KoranThe more you talk about Islam as this 'greater evil' amongst the other religions, the more nonsensical it sounds to me.

Do you feel that there is a problem of Christian violence around the world right now?edit: also, the alternative is that "all religions are exactly equally likely to lead to violence" which seems just absurd on the face of it. why would the specific content of religious doctrine have no effect on people?