Effective Line / Bluff / Overall Play ?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Decent Table, no donkey players (except maybe me ) Mostly ABC style. My first thought process was call to protect blind. Most of the time all SBs were raising when BB was heads up. Just a flow that the table was doing. Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($54.45)SB ($59.35)Hero (BB) ($61.50)UTG ($50.20)MP ($48.25)CO ($65.92)Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 44 folds, SB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1Flop: ($3) J, 7, 5(2 players)SB bets $2, Hero calls $2Turn: ($7) 9(2 players)SB bets $4, Hero raises to $8, SB calls $4River: ($23) 2(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $13, Post flop I was open ended and I still felt like SB was still stealing. Since I was open-ended so I figured a $2 call was o.k. Turn came and he fired again. I still felt like he had the pistol on me with maybe a flush draw. Raised to see if I could put some heat on him. River came with another blank. He checked so I assumed my raise on the turn worked. I felt here he had been firing blanks, or was trying to trap me with a J or something, but since he ws so aggressive then just laid down, I did not sense a trap, so I fired away. Since I had 0 showdown value, I knew I had to bet something. I did not know what the magic number should be. I felt that just a half-pot button bet might look suspesct, but did not want to invest too much just in case I was wrong, but wanted to make it big enough for him to think about it. Now, was my thinking thru this hand decent, and how was the river bet size?? I feel like the river bet size was the only thing I did wrong, but let's see what you guys think.Thanks!!

[trystero 0]

Raise flop

[mtdesmoines 3]

The problem with this hand is that he's putting you on a missed FD and maybe checked to induce a bluff.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

OK., So I should have raised to $4 on the flop. Now, If the hand still keeps playing out like it did:A ) if he checkes the turn, the pot would be $9, so what would be the magic number? Half-pot ($4.50) a $6-$7 stab, or pot?B ) if he leads out again for $5, then I would have to either flat or fold? A raise again from me would be suicide? Correct??I guess long term trying to draw out to hit the straight would be hanging myself. Being greedy?Thanks!!

[trystero 0]

Yeah if he leads the turn just flat, even though he's repping a draw he's not going to foldHad we raised the flop and he called, I'm not saying we automatically bet the turn...may be best to just take the freebie especially on this card...it's sorta safe as really only 86/Tc9c got there.

[BaseJester 1]

Like mt says, villain is looking you up with ace high on the river.What are you trying to represent with a minraise after the 9 hits? I like playing the straight draw in a way that screams flush draw, but having done that, you can't really represent something else.

[trystero 0]

Villain isn't looking us up with Ace high on the river. I guarantee you that. The bluff has to work like 30% of the time to be profitable...and I'm not saying it does, but I'd say that villain's got some missed draws in his range that are not calling. I like the river sizing as played.

[rrumsey 0]

if you wanna bluff, raise bigger on the turn imo. or raise flop. i mean this is far too passive imo to bluff with. seeing how we have zero showdown value on the river we need to bet bigger. i mean unless we have bet small ( slash the way we have in his hand) with our made showdown hands then we can do this i guess, but that image has to be well established. even then i think i still bet big.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

What are you trying to represent with a minraise after the 9 hits?

if you wanna bluff, raise bigger on the turn imo.

Good Point. Did not think about that. All I was going for was really for him to fold. Now that I see that really a minraise just shows weakness (or with a made hand a good trap play at higher level play?). Villian thought long and hard about it,(maybe he thought I turned or rivered 2-pair?) and ended up timing out. At a higher level play/stakes table I would have been killed by the play that MT described above. At these stakes (.25/.50) I guess you can get away with these mistakes.He must have realized he made a bad lay down, becasue the next couple of hands I was involved in he was raising pre-flop like 6x-8x since he had table position on me. I ended up just leaving. No sense in donking it back off to a tilter. :)Nice discussion though. Made a few $$ on the hand, but made more in knowledge on this thread.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Terrible decision on every street.Raise or fold prePut money in somehow in an aggressive manner on the flop.The turn and river are so retarded I won't say any more... but you should never reach these spots so it's irrelevant.

[trystero 0]

River is not retarded at all3-betting pre is spewtastic...fold is best imo

[BaseJester 1]

Villain isn't looking us up with Ace high on the river. I guarantee you that.

That's interesting, because I would be calling here a lot with ace high if I called the turn with it. Maybe you're thinking most of the ace-high hands folded the turn? Break-even win% for the villain calling on the river is 27%.

The bluff has to work like 30% of the time to be profitable...and I'm not saying it does, but I'd say that villain's got some missed draws in his range that are not calling. I like the river sizing as played.

I think the sizing is fine, too. I'm asking myself, what hands call this bet and what hands call a bigger bet? They seem like very similar sets and the hero loses less with this bet than a PSB.

[Biff Goods 0]

yah I think the river bet is fine but does not match up with the rest of the hand which is why I would have called. Think about it this way....if you had 8-10 or J 9 or even J10+ you might check call the flop but definitely raise the turn more as to price out any draws you may be up against...So min-raising you are representing either a draw yourself or the mortal nuts. Since there are so many hands you could have on the turn and the nuts is a small % of that amount it just seems fishy min-raising. Even if you made it 10 instead of 8 it would look more like you have the best hand but are trying to keep him in the hand. I don't know if I'm calling the river with A high but I'm def calling with any J, any 9, 88 and may even call with a 7 in my hand.

[KingJames 11]

Fold preflop> 3bet> calling

[KingJames 11]

Let me add; your read was that you were playing with some straight forward ABC types or whatev.64<ABC sb opening range

[BaseJester 1]

Let me add; your read was that you were playing with some straight forward ABC types or whatev.So yes, they will be stealing on the button, but 64o is behind even there stealing rangeSo were are giving up card advantage and positional advantage... not a good situation

Villain is the small blind.

[KingJames 11]

Villain is the small blind.

Well then... I still fold

[Novice26 0]

Fold preflop based on your impression that they were ABC players.But if you decide to play w/him, either raise preflop, or raise on the flop or turn, minraise imho is horrible and reeks of weakness.

[trystero 0]

Fold preflop based on your impression that they were ABC players.But if you decide to play w/him, either raise preflop, or raise on the flop or turn, minraise imho is horrible and reeks of weakness.

lol and we have someone in another thread saying turn minraises are almost always the nuts. Which can it be? What happens if I post a hand against some straightforward dude, I bet the flop and the turn with TPGK, and he minraises? We say, "baluga theorem, fold," but when we see hero's cards then we know it's obviously a weak raise. I'm not defending the play, just noting that people are so results-oriented it's ridiculous.

[Biff Goods 0]

lol and we have someone in another thread saying turn minraises are almost always the nuts. Which can it be? What happens if I post a hand against some straightforward dude, I bet the flop and the turn with TPGK, and he minraises? We say, "baluga theorem, fold," but when we see hero's cards then we know it's obviously a weak raise. I'm not defending the play, just noting that people are so results-oriented it's ridiculous.

The difference the between those two hands are not what the Hero had...it's what information the board was showing combined with the min-raise. In both hands it doesn't make sense for the Hero to min-raise with what he is trying to represent because if he actually had what he was pretending to...he would play it differently. But I do see what you are saying though....Edit: In this hand at least the OP is telling the truth when he says he doesn't even know what he was trying to rep....

[XXEddie 0]

OK., So I should have raised to $4 on the flop. Now, If the hand still keeps playing out like it did:A ) if he checkes the turn, the pot would be $9, so what would be the magic number? Half-pot ($4.50) a $6-$7 stab, or pot?B ) if he leads out again for $5, then I would have to either flat or fold? A raise again from me would be suicide? Correct??I guess long term trying to draw out to hit the straight would be hanging myself. Being greedy?Thanks!!

OMG No!Simply put.....NEVER MINRAISE. IT IS RETARDED.

[Ninja Ace 1]

OMG No!Simply put.....NEVER MINRAISE. IT IS RETARDED.

One exception... when you have a note that says "spazz shoves into clickbacks"