Confused On River

[droberts 3]

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 378660The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (UTG+2): $27.30MP1: $5.00MP2: $8.90CO: $5.00BTN: $0.95SB: $37.15BB: $22.35UTG: $24.50UTG+1: $5.00Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+2 with J Q 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 5 folds, BB calls $0.50Flop: ($1.60) J K A (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $1.25, BB calls $1.25Turn: ($4.10) T (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $2.25, BB calls $2.25River: ($8.60) 5 (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB raises to $18.10 all inlol is there ever a hand that hit that runner runner flush?EDIT: and for those goin wtf raise QJ off that early.. table was tight. had several orbs into table and crushed them preflop all night so bad.

[XXEddie 0]

Yes. KQcc, K9cc, Q9cc I think on the river you need to either bet smaler like $3 or so or just check behind. What really calls you here other than Qx? Two pair maybe.... Villain either went backdor clubs or is shoving a Q hoping you will fold your Q, another reason why I like a check behind. Ugh, and I just now realized you raised QJo from UTG+2, I really hate that. Fold pre and check behind the river. As played I think it's a muck, a very close muck. If you have any read on villain that could signify this as a bluff I think that'll make it a call. I think a bluff here is out of the question though...

[droberts 3]

Fold pre and check behind the river. As played I think it's a muck, a very close muck. If you have any read on villain that could signify this as a bluff I think that'll make it a call. I think a bluff here is out of the question though...

i explained the raise.. i literally had about 75% of my pf raises uncalled.. guy was extreme fishcake... limped almost every pot.this hand might explain him a little bit.Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 378669The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (CO): $25.00BTN: $5.00SB: $5.15BB: $5.00UTG: $1.30UTG+1: $37.65UTG+2: $28.00MP1: $24.50MP2: $5.00Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A K 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 1 fold, SB calls $1.15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $1Flop: ($4.00) K Q J (3 players)SB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $2.25, SB calls $2.25, UTG+2 calls $2.25Turn: ($10.75) 8 (3 players)SB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checksRiver: ($10.75) T (3 players)SB bets $1.65 all in, UTG+2 calls $1.65, Hero calls $1.65Final Pot: $15.70Hero shows A K (a straight, Ten to Ace)SB shows 8 A (a straight, Ten to Ace)UTG+2 mucks 4 K :club:SB wins $7.50Hero wins $7.45(Rake: $0.75)he was the K4 guy in this hand.EDIT: lol at me underbetting that flop.. didnt realize i bet so small.. (will remember this)

[XXEddie 0]

You 'explained' your raise after my post, and your explanation doesn't even make sense. table was tight. had several orbs into table and crushed them preflop all night so bad.I cant even comprehend that. You played on the table for several orbits but was crushing them preflop all night long??? I still hate the raise.Also, the 2nd HH you posted should be included in your OP, and it actually hurts your case in wanting to call this. Donktards like that are highly unlikely to check/shove the river on a pure bluff. You're hoping you are chopping here now.

[droberts 3]

You 'explained' your raise after my post, and your explanation doesn't even make sense. table was tight. had several orbs into table and crushed them preflop all night so bad.I cant even comprehend that. You played on the table for several orbits but was crushing them preflop all night long??? I still hate the raise.

i had my explanation like 10 minutes before u even posted... i put that edit at the bottom of my first post like 30 seconds after i posted the topic.i played a few orbis and noticed that the table is playing really tight, so i decided to loosen up a little and see how they respond.after those few orbits i won lots of uncontested pots for about 2 hours. i probly averaged between 2 or 3 pots per orbit.it wasnt like that on the other 3 tables i played.. just that one. i played pretty TAG on my other 3 tables.if a table plays tight or scared, i am going to adjust and try to take advantage.. i dont see how that is bad.

[KingJames 11]

Wow, settle down, ladies.Bet way more on the turn

[rbakken2504 0]

if the table is tight, you dont want to be playing this aggressively OOP. If you start too play too aggro even donks will realize this and start to loosen up, you have to keep it balanced and keep the donks happy. As for the river, definitely not an enjoyable spot, but i think Eddie is right...the check-shove bluff is a play that ive only seen used by a good player, and they have to know that they're playing against a decent player who will fold to a river check raise. i'd say probably 45% of the time this is a flush, 45% of the time a str8, and the last 10% an overplayed set or two pair.

[CoolHandKai 0]

i had my explanation like 10 minutes before u even posted... i put that edit at the bottom of my first post like 30 seconds after i posted the topic.

Just to provide an explanation for this: Typically people open a post, then hit reply, then write a reply. While they are writing a reply, they obviously don't see any edits.So it is possible that Eddie opened your post in the 30 second span before you edited it and then took 10 minutes to write and send his reply.

[BaseJester 1]

I think this hand is played fine. Checking behind on the river leaves money on the table, imho. I think we're getting paid off reluctantly by two pair here a lot. I think we call the river for the pot odds offered, even though we are a dog to his range at this point.

[tskillz187 0]

Check flop, bet bigger turn, call river.

[BaseJester 1]

Check flop, . . .

Talk that through for me. What do you when the turn bricks and the villain leads?

[tskillz187 0]

Call one street, fold to two streets. You have a weak made hand that you want to get to showdown with. By cbetting you're sometimes getting one call from pocket pairs but not usually, but if you check once or twice you'll get one street, plus you have a gut shot to improve to here.

[BaseJester 1]

Call one street, fold to two streets. You have a weak made hand that you want to get to showdown with. By cbetting you're sometimes getting one call from pocket pairs but not usually, but if you check once or twice you'll get one street, plus you have a gut shot to improve to here.

1. Bet the flop - Check the turn.
2. Check the flop - Check or Call the turn.
3. Double barrel.

I think the first two options are close. Are you c-betting on this board with 88? We don't have the chance to improve in that case, so I'm wondering if that changes your line.

[IlLeone 0]

Like eddie said, i really dont like the raise w/ QJo utg, but whatever.As played, i think its a fold, and looking @ the second hand you posted it looks like the guy is donkey status for sure. Only a good player is bluffing you here IMO and if villain was an "Extreme Fishcake" then i dont think he's got the capacity to put you on a hand that beats him, and still shove. A player like that isnt shoving here without the nuts or near nuts.

[tskillz187 0]

1. Bet the flop - Check the turn.
2. Check the flop - Check or Call the turn.
3. Double barrel.

I think the first two options are close. Are you c-betting on this board with 88? We don't have the chance to improve in that case, so I'm wondering if that changes your line.

I feel like situation one where you bet flop/check turn your hand looks a lot weaker and you get bluffed a lot more. If you check back flop and call turn bet they aren't likely to barrel again, but especially if they check turn and you bet turn, they don't see the turn weakness (of checking) so they almost always check river to you. No I don't cbet 88 there, I check/give up. If they're psycho aggro or something I might check flop and call one but not usually, if someone has like 44 here they are content to just check it down with you.

[Royal_Tour 0]

yea. i'm not gonna bother with the hand itself, just give my 2cents on the preflop issue.Ok. this is coming from a fullring player.. I love 6max, but have much more hands at fullring.in this spot, you really dont want to be raising a hand like QJo UTG+2. if the table is as tight/passive as you say, just wait a couple hands and raise any two from LP.The thing with QJ off, is youre getting called by LP's who have you crushed. KQ, KJ, AJ etc... they arent raising, but are def calling.you're better off raising hands like 5,6s that you can get away from easier when you only catch small pieces. esp considering its FR

[droberts 3]

just wondering if the guy was bad would he overvalue a flopped monster and think that i shouldnt have the queen because i bet the flop and should have the Ace or aces up.River: ($8.60) 5 (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB raises to $18.10 all in, Hero calls $13.10Final Pot: $44.80Hero shows J Q (a straight, Ten to Ace)BB shows K K (three of a kind, Kings)Hero wins $42.60(Rake: $2.20)i didnt see how he could have made it to the river with clubs here, but as Eddie said, there are a few KcXc hands that make it there... also can we fold for $13.10 more with the pot at $34. granted a check/raise on river by a fish usually means the near nuts.

[KingJames 11]

Well villain butchered that hand pretty badly.Bet turn bigger!!!

[Biff Goods 0]

yea. i'm not gonna bother with the hand itself, just give my 2cents on the preflop issue.Ok. this is coming from a fullring player.. I love 6max, but have much more hands at fullring.in this spot, you really dont want to be raising a hand like QJo UTG+2. if the table is as tight/passive as you say, just wait a couple hands and raise any two from LP.The thing with QJ off, is youre getting called by LP's who have you crushed. KQ, KJ, AJ etc... they arent raising, but are def calling.you're better off raising hands like 5,6s that you can get away from easier when you only catch small pieces. esp considering its FR

I'm with ya here. If the table is tight passive then what value is there in raising utg with an easily dominated hand? You maybe winning 1.5bbs at a time but when you DO get called you are usually crushed and out of position. Punish the tight table but do it with 3bets and from late position

[droberts 3]

i was thinking about this hand a little today while i was at work.just curious but shouldnt we pretty much throw KQcc and Q9cc out of his range, because those hands should check raise the turn like everytime to protect against sets/2 pairs.. and if hero has a Q and shoves, those hands would be freerolling.am i correct to assume this?and its hard to see Kc9c calling this flop oop.

[trystero 0]

sometimes player are just bad and they make mistakes, and they don't do what they're "supposed to"

[XXEddie 0]

i was thinking about this hand a little today while i was at work.just curious but shouldnt we pretty much throw KQcc and Q9cc out of his range, because those hands should check raise the turn like everytime to protect against sets/2 pairs.. and if hero has a Q and shoves, those hands would be freerolling.am i correct to assume this?and its hard to see Kc9c calling this flop oop.

It's also hard to see KK just calling pre and flatting the flop. You already showed us villain is a donk which I believe makes those KcXc/QcXc more in his range

[droberts 3]

It's also hard to see KK just calling pre and flatting the flop. You already showed us villain is a donk which I believe makes those KcXc/QcXc more in his range

true i guess, considering the playerbut if we were dealing with a reg or a better player can we give my thought about those not being in his range a consideration?

[Royal_Tour 0]

just wondering if the guy was bad would he overvalue a flopped monster and think that i shouldnt have the queen because i bet the flop and should have the Ace or aces up.River: ($8.60) 5 (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB raises to $18.10 all in, Hero calls $13.10Final Pot: $44.80Hero shows J Q (a straight, Ten to Ace)BB shows K K (three of a kind, Kings)Hero wins $42.60(Rake: $2.20)i didnt see how he could have made it to the river with clubs here, but as Eddie said, there are a few KcXc hands that make it there... also can we fold for $13.10 more with the pot at $34. granted a check/raise on river by a fish usually means the near nuts.

wtf??what a ****ing toolbox - its a c/c river 100% of th time. even if he thinks you might value an A, or two pairalso. you basically have the nuts here, I dont put anyone on a flush.

[rrumsey 0]

call me a nit but unless villain is a moron im just checking river but yah i know nitty play