Top Pair And Flush Draw

[Syntonic 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($96.50)Hero (Button) ($100)SB ($266.35)BB ($33.80)UTG ($57.10)UTG+1 ($82.65)MP1 ($40)MP2 ($349.85)MP3 ($105.25)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, K5 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1Flop: ($6.50) J, 10, 3(3 players)BB checks, CO bets $3, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO calls $5Turn: ($22.50) 8(2 players)CO checks, Hero bets $12, CO raises to $86.50 (All-In), Hero ??No reads. Would someone do this with the nuts?

[empythree 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($96.50)Hero (Button) ($100)SB ($266.35)BB ($33.80)UTG ($57.10)UTG+1 ($82.65)MP1 ($40)MP2 ($349.85)MP3 ($105.25)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, K5 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1Flop: ($6.50) J, 10, 3(3 players)BB checks, CO bets $3, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO calls $5Turn: ($22.50) 8(2 players)CO checks, Hero bets $12, CO raises to $86.50 (All-In), Hero ??No reads. Would someone do this with the nuts?

I'll give it a shot.. If I figured he was a Reg, I would say this isn't normally the nuts unless he thinks you are some awful player who might call w/ a top pair type hand. The nice thing about pokerstars is you can see the last 5 hands or so and it sometimes gives an idea of how a player acts. Not sure if FT is the same way or not. I'm not sure why he would shove w/ a set either(unless he thinks of you in a certain way).. So unless he put you on a specific hand, he probably has Ac 10c or a two pair hand and is protecting/value shoving his hand.... I usually wouldn't call this without reads... I could be wrong but that's my thinking.

[trystero 0]

Tough spot but a competent opponent isn't doing this w/out a better hand and we don't have the odds to hit our outs. We need him to have a AcQc/AcKc that couldn't let go OTF and is now making a desperation play at the pot. I can see making a call here given the right read, but against an unknown I lay it down. What inclines me to call is that he minraises PF and then puts in a weak ass c/bet OTF, two signals that he doesn't really know what he's doing, so a stackadonk line may be unavailable to him. Instead, he may just be going nuts on a semibluff. I like a 3-bet pf OTB - to a regular raise, even, especially a m/r.

[SCS 0]

I prefer calling on the flop. You aren't getting much value by raising, and you fold out a lot of worse hands.Calling or 3 betting preflop are both fine, depending on who you have left to act in the blinds.

[Dictius 0]

I prefer calling on the flop. You aren't getting much value by raising, and you fold out a lot of worse hands.Calling or 3 betting preflop are both fine, depending on who you have left to act in the blinds.

I don't like 3 betting preflop at all without some reads on the CO. I like 3 betting if you think the CO is a bit fishy and is raising hands like K8 so he is often dominated when he calls the 3 bet. I don't like 3 betting if the CO is a reg cause his range for calling a 3 bet often has your hand dominated.

[trystero 0]

OTB I like to 3bet "the regs" so long as there are no maniacs in the blinds who'll squeeze lightly. Usually regs open kind of light from the CO or even MP, and they'll fold regularly to our 3-bets. Q9o or KJs; it doesn't matter so long as we're applying pressure. Most regs aren't nearly as good as they think they are, and they'll often call when they shouldn't OOP (w/hands like 87s or 55) or fold when they "should" but when they're actually ahead (like AT/AJo against our T8s). That's how I handle the HUDBOTs anyway who 1) cannot make the proper adjustments to increased button pressure and/or 2) cannot play well postflop, especially when OOP (who really can) and/or 3) get frustrated and begin to make loose calls or ships. The advantage is always with the 3-bettor in position. How annoying is it when you raise with AJo and get 3-bet? A part of you wants to 4-bet, due to the button's widened range, but now you've given control of your stack to the aggressor; he decides if he wants to invest more than 12 BBs. And if you call then obv you're in dangerous postflop situations. And knowing that he can 3-bet TT or QJs, you never want to fold.edit: I remember a post on here where a solid player 4-bet shoved like 55 against a light 3-bettor at 10 or 25 nl. I mean, 55 at these stakes? Some players recommended that our hero just practice better game selection and leave the table. Now consider the 3-bettor's perspective. One, this TAG gets up and leaves, which is a fine result as we've removed a competent player from the game. Two, this guy's 4-bet shipping 55; that's just madness at these limits. Now our villain can call off with hands like JJ/TT very profitably because hero's trying to defend his raises.anyway long tangent, whatever, point is 3-betting lightly is fun and effective against HUDBOTsNow against a nit, who may or may not be a regular, it's probably best to play the hand straightforwardly, which in this case means a call (suited broadway in position for only 2 bets).

[xXxAceBoyxXx 0]

Hard one there, alot of money at stake. you almost have to put him on an open ended straight that caught on the turn, that or a straight bluff. with that much money its hard to say... you almost have to be there, spur of the moment. its either you get that flush or your out so the question would be.. do you feel lucky?but then agian why the 2$ raise pre-flop.. on Q9? maybe but i dont know lol more realistic saying he had J 10 2 pair.. but depends on how he plays. loose he had Q9 semi conservative he had J 10 conservative he had JJ or 88 haha take a pick

[AimHigher 0]

I don't like 3 betting preflop at all without some reads on the CO. I like 3 betting if you think the CO is a bit fishy and is raising hands like K8 so he is often dominated when he calls the 3 bet. I don't like 3 betting if the CO is a reg cause his range for calling a 3 bet often has your hand dominated.

As long as we know the preflop raiser is opening wide and will fold to a 3-bet we can 3-bet super wide and he'll fold so frequently that it's going to be profitable.

[Dictius 0]

As long as we know the preflop raiser is opening wide and will fold to a 3-bet we can 3-bet super wide and he'll fold so frequently that it's going to be profitable.

So are we 3 betting KJs on the button for value or as a bluff?

[AimHigher 0]

So are we 3 betting KJs on the button for value or as a bluff?

As a bluff against a competent player opening wide in the CO that is capable of folding to a 3-bet. For value against a spewtard who will call his entire opening range vs our 3-bet.

[DonkSlayer 1]

The most outs I can muster for us is 14 (if villain has QQ), and we're not getting correct pot odds to chase the best case scenario.

[SpatsJ 0]

i don't see CO raising $2 with Q9. i think i'd have to call here. my guess he's on a draw and trying to push you out.

[Dictius 0]

For value against a spewtard who will call his entire opening range vs our 3-bet.

This part I definitely agree with.

As a bluff against a competent player opening wide in the CO that is capable of folding to a 3-bet.

But here is where I am confused. If we 3 bet a competent player who has a wide range, isn't he going to call our 3-bets with the top part of his range which usually has us dominated and is going to fold the bottom part of his range which we dominate?If this is the case I think calling in position is a better option because we are turning a hand with some post-flop value into a bluff, and next time we have some junky hand like 84o we can bluff the CO open.

[SCS 0]

This part I definitely agree with.But here is where I am confused. If we 3 bet a competent player who has a wide range, isn't he going to call our 3-bets with the top part of his range which usually has us dominated and is going to fold the bottom part of his range which we dominate?If this is the case I think calling in position is a better option because we are turning a hand with some post-flop value into a bluff, and next time we have some junky hand like 84o we can bluff the CO open.

If villain folds A8o, or 33 it's good for us.You should also consider the fact that with a CO that is opening a very wide range, if we just call, we are in a spot where, because of villain's opening range, we are more likely than our opponent to lose our stacks.Also, we need to know what hands are in villain's 3 bet calling range. If villain usually folds to a 3 bet, then I'd prefer to call with KJs most of the time and 3 bet a hand like 44 or 53s. If villain raises wide and calls a lot of 3 bets, then I raise KJs for value.There is also the blinds to think about. Against blinds that are very loose passive, I'll call with KJs, because it plays well multiway and I want to keep the fish in the pot. Against blinds that are very aggressive and will squeeze a lot, I'll 3 bet to prevent myself from being squeezed and having to fold a fairly strong hand, and to get heads up against the CO, who is opening a wide range.

[Aces Rule 0]

The 3-bet vs call preflop discussion is very interesting and I enjoyed some of the logic being applied. However, I think there is a fundamental oversight in the posts - that being the CO mini-bet preflop. That is a huge tell once you have a fair idea of what he's normal betting pattern is, otherwise without a pattern you have to make certain assumptions of which two come to mind.1. he's semi-slowplaying a huge starting hand Aces or Kings2. he's sweeting the pot with a sm-mid pp or suited connectorThe second assumption is mostly stupid (IMO) as it doesn't buy the button (if the button has any kind of playable hand such as KJs) or steal the blinds in most cases but a lot of players make a mini-pfr with these kind of hands. However the first assumption I have seen often by tricky players looking for a 3-bet as the mini-pfr looks so weak. Then they'll either 4-bet pf or slowplay to the flop/turn (especially if the 3-bet came from the OOP blinds). In my experieance, a mini-pfr is a Red Flag until I have a better idea of the opps betting pattern and until I do I just call preflop so as to not re-open the pf betting to a re-raise.As for this hand, the all-in ck-raise looks like an overpair shutting down str8s and flushes that developed on the Turn. It's way overdone as a potsize bet would have accomplished the same thing and save $$ if Hero had a better hand - like a set of Jacks or Tens. With the min-pfr and this over the top all-in I don't think CO is a solid player yet and so can be expected to make some pretty questionable moves you'd more liekly see from fish and donkeys. With just TP Jacks and 2nd best Kicker I'm cutting my loses with a fold.

[tskillz187 0]

If we 3bet it's for value pf. 3betting here isn't bad or great, if his steal is 30%> 3betting for value is probably best. You're ahead of his opening range but probably behind his calling range depending on game dynamics. Someone with high steal % will be opening light here and folding a lot.As for the hand, raising flop is bad, betting turn is pretty bad too. What are you trying to get value from?