First Debate

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Money saved in Iraq could have saved the U.S. government from borrowing as much as they have. Resources and attention given to a bogus war in Iraq could have been directed towards the economy as well as clean energy sources. Money saved in Iraq could have been used to help cover the cost of this bailout.

See, this is where debates turn into arguments. When you present an opinion as a statement of fact that serves as a basic premise in your position, things quickly turn sour.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

See, this is where debates turn into arguments. When you present an opinion as a statement of fact that serves as a basic premise in your position, things quickly turn sour.

Sorry about that, I didn't even need to add that point. I just felt like it was pretty clear at this point that entering Iraq was considered a mistake. Obviously the premise was that there were WMD's in Saddam's possession so when it was found not to be true, seems like, speaking as a Monday morning QB, to be a mistake. Aside from that, the lack of a solid connection between Saddam and the man who attacked us is a bit of a sticking point. The fact that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan but troops were diverted to Iraq. Didn't mean to be offensive, I swear, but I didn't think there were many people in the country that felt the war was warranted after all the facts we've come to know today. If you do think it was a just war, apologies for making the assumption.

[Loismustdie 0]

Money saved in Iraq could have saved the U.S. government from borrowing as much as they have. Resources and attention given to a bogus war in Iraq could have been directed towards the economy as well as clean energy sources. Money saved in Iraq could have been used to help cover the cost of this bailout.

Yes, but it wouldn't have stopped the situation from happening.

[bdc30 0]

Any chance Barack chooses to answer any of the debate questions with the word "present"?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Sorry about that, I didn't even need to add that point. I just felt like it was pretty clear at this point that entering Iraq was considered a mistake. Obviously the premise was that there were WMD's in Saddam's possession so when it was found not to be true, seems like, speaking as a Monday morning QB, to be a mistake. Aside from that, the lack of a solid connection between Saddam and the man who attacked us is a bit of a sticking point. The fact that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan but troops were diverted to Iraq. Didn't mean to be offensive, I swear, but I didn't think there were many people in the country that felt the war was warranted after all the facts we've come to know today. If you do think it was a just war, apologies for making the assumption.

Absloutely no offense taken. I've grown a thick skin around here and even learned to respect the opinions of you and others around here. Was just pointing out how sometimes things degenerate. Making more of a general observation and didn't really mean to put you on the spot. Heck, I've been WAY more of a troll in the past with much more inflamatory statements than a simple stament like yours!

[Mercury69 3]

I think there is some truth to this. Cost of iraq war is approaching $600 billion, not too far from what we need to bail out the economy....

I think that's a pretty low estimate and doesn't factor in things like how much it has cost to train personnel prior to going to Iraq. This may be incorrect, but according to Generation Kill, it costs 1 million to train each Marine. Now, I don't know how many Marines have died in the conflict and assuming it doesn't cost nearly as much to train Reg Army, there have still been over 4000 servicemen and women killed in Iraq. This is also assuming that none of the trickledown costs associated with Blackwater and other private orgs operating in Iraq haven't reached the American taxpayer.

[El Guapo 8]

I think that's a pretty low estimate and doesn't factor in things like how much it has cost to train personnel prior to going to Iraq. This may be incorrect, but according to Generation Kill, it costs 1 million to train each Marine. Now, I don't know how many Marines have died in the conflict and assuming it doesn't cost nearly as much to train Reg Army, there have still been over 4000 servicemen and women killed in Iraq. This is also assuming that none of the trickledown costs associated with Blackwater and other private orgs operating in Iraq haven't reached the American taxpayer.

I have said this before, but regardless of the numbers. That is how much it cost to train them war or no war. The War numbers are skewed, because a large percentage of those $$$ would have been spent just on training and normal military expense.Where we have spent too much money is foreign aid, primarily to the middle east and surrounding nation, and that is being lumped in with those numbers a lot.

[copernicus 0]

I think there is some truth to this. Cost of iraq war is approaching $600 billion, not too far from what we need to bail out the economy....

I see. and the money spent in Iraq has had no benefit for the US. gotcha

[Mercury69 3]

I have said this before, but regardless of the numbers. That is how much it cost to train them war or no war. The War numbers are skewed, because a large percentage of those $$$ would have been spent just on training and normal military expense.Where we have spent too much money is foreign aid, primarily to the middle east and surrounding nation, and that is being lumped in with those numbers a lot.

That's true.The forces would be trained, war or not...I guess a lot of the money spent on Foreign Aid is kind of like building/repairing economy bridges with customers we don't want to lose, so I suppose it could be argued that it's money well spent, but it also seems to ignore alternatives to, say, fossil fuels, for example, when some of that money could conceivably have been spent on research to produce safer nuclear energy or something else that would allow the USA to be less dependant on this kind of relationship. Part of that issue appears to be the fact that those who are making money on the current status quo are likely reluctant to let their cash cow go out to pasture in favour of something else that might not be within their power grid to manipulate.What a twisted world we live in...

[vbnautilus 48]

I have said this before, but regardless of the numbers. That is how much it cost to train them war or no war. The War numbers are skewed, because a large percentage of those $$$ would have been spent just on training and normal military expense.Where we have spent too much money is foreign aid, primarily to the middle east and surrounding nation, and that is being lumped in with those numbers a lot.

The number I quoted counts only direct congressional authorizations for the iraq war, which is on top of the department of defense's annual budget. It's one of the more conservative estimates; other estimates put it closer to $900 billion, and of course there's some guy who wrote a book saying the total cost to the economy is over 3 trillion.

[copernicus 0]

Didn't mean to be offensive, I swear, but I didn't think there were many people in the country that felt the war was warranted after all the facts we've come to know today.If you do think it was a just war, apologies for making the assumption.

Not that many people? Youre out of touch. 42% isnt many people?

CBS News/New York Times Poll. Sept. 12-16, 2008. N=1,133 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

42% right thing

54% stayed out

4% unsure

.

[vbnautilus 48]

I see. and the money spent in Iraq has had no benefit for the US. gotcha

You don't think that's open to debate?

[copernicus 0]

You don't think that's open to debate?

I dont think its open to debate that its had SOME benefit. We will disagree on how much, but anyone who says 0 benefit is being disingenuous.

[vbnautilus 48]

I dont think its open to debate that its had SOME benefit. We will disagree on how much, but anyone who says 0 benefit is being disingenuous.

Allright, but it seems like the real question is whether whatever we got from it was worth $600 billion dollars to us. Or if we think that was the best way to spend our $600 billion dollars.And to be totally honest I don't think we can really tell at this point in history whether this course of action was beneficial or detrimental to us.

[copernicus 0]

That's true.The forces would be trained, war or not...I guess a lot of the money spent on Foreign Aid is kind of like building/repairing economy bridges with customers we don't want to lose, so I suppose it could be argued that it's money well spent, but it also seems to ignore alternatives to, say, fossil fuels, for example, when some of that money could conceivably have been spent on research to produce safer nuclear energy or something else that would allow the USA to be less dependant on this kind of relationship. Part of that issue appears to be the fact that those who are making money on the current status quo are likely reluctant to let their cash cow go out to pasture in favour of something else that might not be within their power grid to manipulate.What a twisted world we live in...

Money spent on foreign aid to countries that would just as soon we turn into Ron Paul isolationism* is wasted. McCains statement on cutting off aid to countries that hate us is suffucient reason to vote for him.* (yeah hes not isolationist hes non-interventionist, been there done that, the practicality of his policy was isolationism)

[El Guapo 8]

Money spent on foreign aid to countries that would just as soon we turn into Ron Paul isolationism* is wasted. McCains statement on cutting off aid to countries that hate us is suffucient reason to vote for him.* (yeah hes not isolationist hes non-interventionist, been there done that, the practicality of his policy was isolationism)

I think I said this, but not as pithy.

[copernicus 0]

I think I said this, but not as pithy.

You making fun of my lithp? I havent gotten pithhed off in a while.

[El Guapo 8]

You making fun of my lithp? I havent gotten pithhed off in a while.

Yeth?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Yeth?

You guys sound like Barney Frank.

[antistuff 0]

lol. full tilt is having a 3x ftp points promotion during the debate. its called "tipple rate for the debate".hopefully lots of people will watch the debate and play at the same time.

[Sheiky 0]

I'm staying up to 4AM to watch this, it better be good.

[Suited_Up 2]

lol. full tilt is having a 3x ftp points promotion during the debate. its called "tipple rate for the debate".hopefully lots of people will watch the debate and play at the same time.

Put everyone on tilt maybe?

[Sal Paradise 57]

ok haven't read any of this thread so forgive me if this has been said already but:who the fuck is dana dash and how in gods name did she get on television???

[jmkiser 0]

What national station is this on? ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX?

[Sal Paradise 57]

all of them.