Mixed Game Challenge Thread

[checkymcfold 0]

Quick question: is live O8 $4/$8 kill a profitable game? They were spreading a table of that at Bay 101 a few weeks ago when I was there, and I like O8 way better than LHE, but it seemed like a really good way to lose a ton of $$$ to rake, so I didn't play (and proceeded to get completely hosed playing 3/6 LHE; my first time in a casino, go me). Should I go for that game instead of the hold'em next time I go to the casino?

most live o8 games are full of mouthbreathers up through 20/40. they like to play it because it gives them an excuse to play every hand, imo.

[uncooper 1]

Yea it was a good game except for the $2 they were taking off the table every hand, even if the BB got a walk (losing with quads was the qualifier for the bbj they were dropping $1/hand for). People were playing really bad hands, and it was really passive postflop.

[Pdiddydog 0]

bet/folding in LO8--why, when, in what game textures? i have a lot of thoughts on this, but i don't wanna taint the jury pool. you guys go first.

I mainly b/f in situations where I'm making a probe/value bet and know I'm beat when I get raised. Here are a few situations where I do this:- Betting boards where my opponents range doesn’t hit well.- I'm betting the river because I plan on calling one bet 1) In situations where I will get called by a worse hand and 2) In situations where I will get a better hand to fold. I do these types of plays mainly in stationy or tight games where it is obvious when they raise me I'm beat/caught. In creative or aggressive games I do still make these plays but I don't exactly b/f in all of these situations where my opponents can be raising with air; it's much more read dependant in those kind of situations. There are obviously other reasons why I take a b/f line but these are just a few common examples.

[Pdiddydog 0]

I slept too late to play that tournament, but the Commerce o8b 4/8 kill game was nice to me. Kill pot:1 limper, Kill checks option, I call CO with JJKsT, button calls, bb calls.Flop: Jd7d7 (pot $44, 5 players)checks to the kill (45 year old dude who is the most aggro at the table, which doesnt say much) who bets, i call, button raises, kill 3b, basically anything I do looks strong but I call, button calls.Turn: 6o (pot $116, 3 players)Aggro dude bets, I raise, button folds, aggro 3b, I say "I cap", tight woman in seat 4 is like "There's no cap here", he makes it 5 leaving less than a kBB behind, and when I raise he's all in.River: 3o ( pot $203, 2 players)he flips 7642. I had like 80% total equity on the turn. Oh well.I haven't played split pot games or flop games in a long time, so I felt pretty uncomfortable postflop. Because of this, I limped or cold-called my entire range preflop, which was probably pretty bad, but I think allowed me to play better postflop than if I had the betting lead a lot of the time.

Seems fine on your part uncooper. If you feel uncomfortable playing Omaha 8 just practice. Also you should be raising a lot when you enter a hand, it allows you to maintain the lead (which is a good thing) as well as exercise control over the table. Whhhhaaaa, no cap? I have played with a 5 bet cap but no cap is insane, they should fix that for sure.

[Cappy37 0]

Good example of how good I run, and bet/fold never really comes up..same opponent in all of these, takes place on a horse table:PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with 5 , 2 , 4 , 9 4 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checksFlop: (2.5 SB) 3 , 10 , 2 (2 players)Hero bets, CO callsTurn: (2.25 BB) A (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO callsRiver: (6.25 BB) 8 (2 players)Hero bets, CO callsTotal pot: $8.25 (8.25 BB) | Rake: $0.35Results:Hero had 5 , 2 , 4 , 9 (Hi: straight, five high, Lo: [ 5, 4, 3, 2, A ]).CO mucked A , 8 , 2 , 7 (Hi: two pair, Aces and eights, Lo: [ 8, 7, 3, 2, A ]).Outcome: Hero won $7.90

[Cappy37 0]

Scarier hand here.. Thoughts?PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with A , 2 , A , 6 1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, BB calls, MP calls, CO callsFlop: (8 SB) K , Q , 5 (4 players)Hero bets, BB calls, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 foldTurn: (6.5 BB) K (2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero callsRiver: (8.5 BB) K (2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero callsTotal pot: $10.50 (10.5 BB) | Rake: $0.50Results in white below: Hero had A , 2 , A , 6 (Hi: full house, Kings over Aces).MP had 10 , J , 10 , 9 (Hi: full house, Kings over tens).Outcome: Hero won $10

[Pdiddydog 0]

Good example of how good I run, and bet/fold never really comes up..same opponent in all of these, takes place on a horse table:PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with 5 , 2 , 4 , 9 4 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checksFlop: (2.5 SB) 3 , 10 , 2 (2 players)Hero bets, CO callsTurn: (2.25 BB) A (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO callsRiver: (6.25 BB) 8 (2 players)Hero bets, CO callsTotal pot: $8.25 (8.25 BB) | Rake: $0.35Results:Hero had 5 , 2 , 4 , 9 (Hi: straight, five high, Lo: [ 5, 4, 3, 2, A ]).CO mucked A , 8 , 2 , 7 (Hi: two pair, Aces and eights, Lo: [ 8, 7, 3, 2, A ]).Outcome: Hero won $7.90

I like it, I may raise pre-flop but I'm sure you have a better idea how this guy plays so that's ok.

[Cappy37 0]

This is the hand that made him leave the table.. Another example of why I never actually get to bet/fold:PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with J , 8 , K , 9 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checksFlop: (4 SB) 2 , Q , 10 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button calls, 1 foldTurn: (3.5 BB) 10 (3 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls, 1 foldRiver: (5.5 BB) 8 (2 players)Hero bets, MP1 callsTotal pot: $7.50 (7.5 BB) | Rake: $0.35Results in white below: Hero had J , 8 , K , 9 (Hi: straight, Queen high).MP1 mucked 2 , A , A , 5 (Hi: two pair, Aces and tens).Outcome: Hero won $7.15

[Pdiddydog 0]

Scarier hand here.. Thoughts?PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with A , 2 , A , 6 1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, BB calls, MP calls, CO callsFlop: (8 SB) K , Q , 5 (4 players)Hero bets, BB calls, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 foldTurn: (6.5 BB) K (2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero callsRiver: (8.5 BB) K (2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero callsTotal pot: $10.50 (10.5 BB) | Rake: $0.50Results in white below: Hero had A , 2 , A , 6 (Hi: full house, Kings over Aces).MP had 10 , J , 10 , 9 (Hi: full house, Kings over tens).Outcome: Hero won $10

The river is the only questionable part. That could be a b/c or c/c depending what you put him on.

[Pdiddydog 0]

This is the hand that made him leave the table.. Another example of why I never actually get to bet/fold:PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is BB with J , 8 , K , 9 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checksFlop: (4 SB) 2 , Q , 10 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button calls, 1 foldTurn: (3.5 BB) 10 (3 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls, 1 foldRiver: (5.5 BB) 8 (2 players)Hero bets, MP1 callsTotal pot: $7.50 (7.5 BB) | Rake: $0.35Results in white below: Hero had J , 8 , K , 9 (Hi: straight, Queen high).MP1 mucked 2 , A , A , 5 (Hi: two pair, Aces and tens).Outcome: Hero won $7.15

Good

[Cappy37 0]

Good example of what happens when *both* players in the pot didn't realize the switch was just made to stud hi.Luckily I made three aces to compliment my eight low.. Standard river call for Razz, imo.. Missed a def c/r in studhi tho :(PokerStars Game #24420740443: HORSE (7 Card Stud Limit, $0.50/$1.00) - 2009/01/30 4:00:07 ETTable 'Eurykleia VIII' 8-maxSeat 1: KidPoker ($9.45 in chips) Seat 2: Fossilman ($20.55 in chips) Seat 3: LadyMaverick ($15.75 in chips) Seat 4: AJKHoosier ($16.55 in chips) Seat 7: VictorRamdin ($19.85 in chips) Seat 8: Cappy37 ($31.30 in chips) VictorRamdin: posts the ante $0.05Cappy37: posts the ante $0.05KidPoker: posts the ante $0.05Fossilman: posts the ante $0.05LadyMaverick: posts the ante $0.05AJKHoosier: posts the ante $0.05*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:]Dealt to LadyMaverick [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [:]Dealt to VictorRamdin [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :]egilhauge joins the table at seat #5 KidPoker: brings in for $0.25Fossilman: calls $0.25LadyMaverick: folds AJKHoosier: folds VictorRamdin: folds Cappy37: calls $0.25*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [:] [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :] [:]Cappy37: checks KidPoker: checks Fossilman: checks *** 5th STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [: :] [:]Dealt to Fossilman [: :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : :] [:]Fossilman: checks Cappy37: bets $1KidPoker: folds Fossilman: calls $1*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [: : :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : :] [:]Cappy37: checks Fossilman: checks *** RIVER ***Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : : :] [:]Cappy37: checks Fossilman: bets $1Cappy37: calls $1*** SHOW DOWN ***Fossilman: shows [: : : : : : :] (a pair of Fours)Cappy37: shows [: : : : : : :] (three of a kind, Aces)Cappy37 collected $4.85 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $5.05 | Rake $0.20 Seat 1: KidPoker folded on the 5th StreetSeat 2: Fossilman showed [ 8c As 7d Qs 4d 3d:] and lost with a pair of FoursSeat 3: LadyMaverick folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 4: AJKHoosier folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 7: VictorRamdin folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Cappy37 showed [ 5c 8h Ac 6c Ad 4c:] and won ($4.85) with three of a kind, Aces

[Pdiddydog 0]

Good example of what happens when *both* players in the pot didn't realize the switch was just made to stud hi.Luckily I made three aces to compliment my eight low.. Standard river call for Razz, imo.. Missed a def c/r in studhi tho :(PokerStars Game #24420740443: HORSE (7 Card Stud Limit, $0.50/$1.00) - 2009/01/30 4:00:07 ETTable 'Eurykleia VIII' 8-maxSeat 1: KidPoker ($9.45 in chips) Seat 2: Fossilman ($20.55 in chips) Seat 3: LadyMaverick ($15.75 in chips) Seat 4: AJKHoosier ($16.55 in chips) Seat 7: VictorRamdin ($19.85 in chips) Seat 8: Cappy37 ($31.30 in chips) VictorRamdin: posts the ante $0.05Cappy37: posts the ante $0.05KidPoker: posts the ante $0.05Fossilman: posts the ante $0.05LadyMaverick: posts the ante $0.05AJKHoosier: posts the ante $0.05*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:]Dealt to LadyMaverick [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [:]Dealt to VictorRamdin [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :]egilhauge joins the table at seat #5 KidPoker: brings in for $0.25Fossilman: calls $0.25LadyMaverick: folds AJKHoosier: folds VictorRamdin: folds Cappy37: calls $0.25*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [:] [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :] [:]Cappy37: checks KidPoker: checks Fossilman: checks *** 5th STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [: :] [:]Dealt to Fossilman [: :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : :] [:]Fossilman: checks Cappy37: bets $1KidPoker: folds Fossilman: calls $1*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [: : :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : :] [:]Cappy37: checks Fossilman: checks *** RIVER ***Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : : :] [:]Cappy37: checks Fossilman: bets $1Cappy37: calls $1*** SHOW DOWN ***Fossilman: shows [: : : : : : :] (a pair of Fours)Cappy37: shows [: : : : : : :] (three of a kind, Aces)Cappy37 collected $4.85 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $5.05 | Rake $0.20 Seat 1: KidPoker folded on the 5th StreetSeat 2: Fossilman showed [ 8c As 7d Qs 4d 3d:] and lost with a pair of FoursSeat 3: LadyMaverick folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 4: AJKHoosier folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 7: VictorRamdin folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Cappy37 showed [ 5c 8h Ac 6c Ad 4c:] and won ($4.85) with three of a kind, Aces

Well in Stud Hi I wouldn't have been in this hand in the first place and if I was I would have been driving the betting earlier. In Razz I would for sure value town the river instead of c/c.

[Cappy37 0]

Here's a stud8, where I start off repping and end up in valuetown:PokerStars Game #24420811869: HORSE (7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit, $0.50/$1.00) - 2009/01/30 4:05:51 ETTable 'Eurykleia VIII' 8-maxSeat 1: Kidpoker ($13.95 in chips) Seat 2: Fossilman ($20.65 in chips) Seat 3: ChadBrownPRO ($11.85 in chips) Seat 4: LadyMaverick ($10.20 in chips) Seat 5: Money800 ($21.90 in chips) Seat 6: AJKHoosier ($20 in chips) Seat 7: VictorRamdin ($19.45 in chips) Seat 8: Cappy37 ($34.25 in chips) VictorRamdin: posts the ante $0.05Cappy37: posts the ante $0.05Kidpoker: posts the ante $0.05Fossilman: posts the ante $0.05ChadBrownPRO: posts the ante $0.05LadyMaverick: posts the ante $0.05Money800: posts the ante $0.05AJKHoosier: posts the ante $0.05*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to Kidpoker [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [:]Dealt to LadyMaverick [:]Dealt to Money800 [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [:]Dealt to VictorRamdin [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :]Fossilman: brings in for $0.25ChadBrownPRO: calls $0.25LadyMaverick: folds Money800: folds AJKHoosier: folds VictorRamdin: folds Cappy37: calls $0.25Kidpoker: folds *** 4th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [:] [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [:] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :] [:]Fossilman: checks ChadBrownPRO: checks Cappy37: bets $0.50Fossilman: folds ChadBrownPRO: calls $0.50*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [: :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1ChadBrownPRO: calls $1*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [: : :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1ChadBrownPRO: calls $1*** RIVER ***Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1ChadBrownPRO: calls $1*** SHOW DOWN ***Cappy37: shows [: : : : : : :] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 8,7,4,2,A)ChadBrownPRO: mucks hand Cappy37 collected $3.90 from potCappy37 collected $3.90 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $8.15 | Rake $0.35 Seat 1: Kidpoker folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 2: Fossilman folded on the 4th StreetSeat 3: ChadBrownPRO mucked [ 9d 9s 6d Ks Td 6c:]Seat 4: LadyMaverick folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 5: Money800 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 6: AJKHoosier folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 7: VictorRamdin folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Cappy37 showed [ 2c 8c 7h Ac Kc 4d:] and won ($7.80) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 8,7,4,2,A

[Pdiddydog 0]

Here's a stud8, where I start off repping and end up in valuetown:PokerStars Game #24420811869: HORSE (7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit, $0.50/$1.00) - 2009/01/30 4:05:51 ETTable 'Eurykleia VIII' 8-maxSeat 1: Kidpoker ($13.95 in chips) Seat 2: Fossilman ($20.65 in chips) Seat 3: ChadBrownPRO ($11.85 in chips) Seat 4: LadyMaverick ($10.20 in chips) Seat 5: Money800 ($21.90 in chips) Seat 6: AJKHoosier ($20 in chips) Seat 7: VictorRamdin ($19.45 in chips) Seat 8: Cappy37 ($34.25 in chips) VictorRamdin: posts the ante $0.05Cappy37: posts the ante $0.05Kidpoker: posts the ante $0.05Fossilman: posts the ante $0.05ChadBrownPRO: posts the ante $0.05LadyMaverick: posts the ante $0.05Money800: posts the ante $0.05AJKHoosier: posts the ante $0.05*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to Kidpoker [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [:]Dealt to LadyMaverick [:]Dealt to Money800 [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [:]Dealt to VictorRamdin [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :]Fossilman: brings in for $0.25ChadBrownPRO: calls $0.25LadyMaverick: folds Money800: folds AJKHoosier: folds VictorRamdin: folds Cappy37: calls $0.25Kidpoker: folds *** 4th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [:] [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [:] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :] [:]Fossilman: checks ChadBrownPRO: checks Cappy37: bets $0.50Fossilman: folds ChadBrownPRO: calls $0.50*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [: :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1ChadBrownPRO: calls $1*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to ChadBrownPRO [: : :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1ChadBrownPRO: calls $1*** RIVER ***Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1ChadBrownPRO: calls $1*** SHOW DOWN ***Cappy37: shows [: : : : : : :] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 8,7,4,2,A)ChadBrownPRO: mucks hand Cappy37 collected $3.90 from potCappy37 collected $3.90 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $8.15 | Rake $0.35 Seat 1: Kidpoker folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 2: Fossilman folded on the 4th StreetSeat 3: ChadBrownPRO mucked [ 9d 9s 6d Ks Td 6c:]Seat 4: LadyMaverick folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 5: Money800 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 6: AJKHoosier folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 7: VictorRamdin folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Cappy37 showed [ 2c 8c 7h Ac Kc 4d:] and won ($7.80) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 8,7,4,2,A

No wonder you hide the names On our part it is again standard.

[Cappy37 0]

i <3 weak-passive playersPokerStars Game #24420850889: HORSE (7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit, $0.50/$1.00) - 2009/01/30 4:08:58 ETTable 'Eurykleia VIII' 8-maxSeat 1: KidPoker ($14.60 in chips) Seat 2: Fossilman ($19.20 in chips) Seat 3: ChadBrownPro ($4.90 in chips) Seat 4: LadyMaverick ($10 in chips) Seat 5: VictorRamdin ($21.45 in chips) Seat 6: AJKHoosier ($19.80 in chips) Seat 7: Money800 ($19.65 in chips) Seat 8: Cappy37 ($41.90 in chips) Money800: posts the ante $0.05Cappy37: posts the ante $0.05KidPoker: posts the ante $0.05Fossilman: posts the ante $0.05ChadBrownPro: posts the ante $0.05LadyMaverick: posts the ante $0.05VictorRamdin: posts the ante $0.05AJKHoosier: posts the ante $0.05*** 3rd STREET ***Dealt to KidPoker [:]Dealt to Fossilman [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPro [:]Dealt to LadyMaverick [:]Dealt to VictorRamdin [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [:]Dealt to Money800 [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :]LadyMaverick: brings in for $0.25VictorRamdin: folds AJKHoosier: calls $0.25Money800: folds Cappy37: raises $0.25 to $0.50KidPoker: folds Fossilman: calls $0.50ChadBrownPro: calls $0.50LadyMaverick: folds AJKHoosier: calls $0.25*** 4th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [:] [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPro [:] [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [:] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : :] [:]Fossilman: checks ChadBrownPro: checks AJKHoosier: bets $0.50Cappy37: calls $0.50Fossilman: calls $0.50ChadBrownPro: calls $0.50*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [: :] [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPro [: :] [:]Dealt to AJKHoosier [: :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1Fossilman: calls $1ChadBrownPro: calls $1AJKHoosier: folds *** 6th STREET ***Dealt to Fossilman [: : :] [:]Dealt to ChadBrownPro [: : :] [:]Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : :] [:]Cappy37: bets $1Fossilman: calls $1ChadBrownPro: folds *** RIVER ***Dealt to Cappy37 [: : : : : :] [:]Cappy37: checks Fossilman: checks *** SHOW DOWN ***Cappy37: shows [: : : : : : :] (HI: three of a kind, Queens)Fossilman: mucks hand Cappy37 collected $9.20 from potNo low hand qualified*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $9.65 | Rake $0.45 Seat 1: KidPoker folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 2: Fossilman mucked [ Ks Kh 6h Th 2d 6c:]Seat 3: ChadBrownPro folded on the 6th StreetSeat 4: LadyMaverick folded on the 3rd StreetSeat 5: VictorRamdin folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 6: AJKHoosier folded on the 5th StreetSeat 7: Money800 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)Seat 8: Cappy37 showed [ Qs Kc 5d Qc 8c Ts:] and won ($9.20) with HI: three of a kind, QueensSick to think I'd get a river call there, although I'm pretty sure checking is better since I've already gotten max value the rest of the way while "ahead". Thoughts?

[Cappy37 0]

The river is the only questionable part. That could be a b/c or c/c depending what you put him on.

Really? I thought the turn was the interesting part of the hand. Play hadn't been overly "passive" during the o8b segment, and I got raised on the flop.. My aces plus backdoor nut low gave me a good chance to peel, but I think taking any form of bet/fold on the turn could get me into huge trouble. I essentially get max value out of the hand, albeit not on purpose.. Curious more about the spot on the turn given the flop action.. And yeah, it took me about 10 seconds to call river.. He's got the dang king there sooooo often. heh.

Well in Stud Hi I wouldn't have been in this hand in the first place and if I was I would have been driving the betting earlier. In Razz I would for sure value town the river instead of c/c.

C/call on this river with a solid 8 probably garners more profit, since he was obv drawing better, I could potentially lose 2 bets vs. picking off one on a bluff/worse 8 or 9.

No wonder you hide the names On our part it is again standard.

Bingo. lol. this was all one orbit. one table.

[Pdiddydog 0]

Really? I thought the turn was the interesting part of the hand. Play hadn't been overly "passive" during the o8b segment, and I got raised on the flop.. My aces plus backdoor nut low gave me a good chance to peel, but I think taking any form of bet/fold on the turn could get me into huge trouble. I essentially get max value out of the hand, albeit not on purpose.. Curious more about the spot on the turn given the flop action.. And yeah, it took me about 10 seconds to call river.. He's got the dang king there sooooo often. heh.

Well this hand is very read dependant. The only standard parts of the hand is pre-flop and on the flop. For me to critique your play on the turn and river I would really have to be at that table. The call on the river is standard in most cases unless you feel he is really passive in which case I like a b/c line

[jmbreslin 0]

that's just variance, jmb. i'd venture to guess that you haven't even hit 30-40k hands of razz in your life (i barely have, myself), so very few of us probably even have a basic idea of our winrate at the game longterm.

Yeah, but here's the problem with the whole "that's just variance" explanation: in both the stud games I've been playing (Stud-8 and Razz) it seems a hell of a lot easier to lose big than it is to win big. I've had a couple of bad Razz sessions where I've lost $10-15 but I've never come close to making that kind of profit in a session. I found the same thing with Stud-8. It feels like I'm grinding to accumulate small gains, but then it can all vanish in the span of one session where you run badly. How do you guys tolerate this?

[Pdiddydog 0]

Yeah, but here's the problem with the whole "that's just variance" explanation: in both the stud games I've been playing (Stud-8 and Razz) it seems a hell of a lot easier to lose big than it is to win big. I've had a couple of bad Razz sessions where I've lost $10-15 but I've never come close to making that kind of profit in a session. I found the same thing with Stud-8. It feels like I'm grinding to accumulate small gains, but then it can all vanish in the span of one session where you run badly. How do you guys tolerate this?

I don't see anything wrong with Jamie's explanation. If you are making small wins followed by a couple huge losses then you might be playing results not hours. You also could be making mistakes that you don't see yet. If that's not the case then there is only one other I can think of Jm. POKER ISN'T FAIR!! You're just going to have to understand all the games have variance but in the long run the better players will win.How do we tolerate this? Well in razz I would suggest getting a pen and some alcohol. The alcohol is for you to drink after the session (in checkmcfold's case during the session ), and the pen is for you to jam in your eyes during the session. As for Stud 8 meh she will come around, she might spend a couple nights at a hotel with her "friends" every now and then but that old bird is dependable in the long run. We also have hardly any emotions (barring the unlikely goldfish dieing), we enjoy "competition", we don't care about money, and we love poker

[checkymcfold 0]

Yeah, but here's the problem with the whole "that's just variance" explanation: in both the stud games I've been playing (Stud-8 and Razz) it seems a hell of a lot easier to lose big than it is to win big. I've had a couple of bad Razz sessions where I've lost $10-15 but I've never come close to making that kind of profit in a session. I found the same thing with Stud-8. It feels like I'm grinding to accumulate small gains, but then it can all vanish in the span of one session where you run badly. How do you guys tolerate this?

i'm willing to bet that you just haven't played enough hands to know what it's like to run good for a session. i've had 150BB winners in razz before. they happen, honest. razz is just a game of a lot of coinflips, basically, so you should really be experiencing as many big winners as you do big losers.stud8 i can't really speak to with a lot of certainty, as about 90% of my hands lifetime at stud8 have come in mixed game settings. i've railed steve7stud playing straight stud8 (albeit at very different sorts of games/stakes), and the stack sizes generally don't change very quickly (at least for him) in either direction.when you say "big loss," what do you mean? 30BB? 50BB? 100BB? i wouldn't consider anything big until you hit triple digits, tbh.also, keep in mind that you simply may not be a longterm winner at some games. rake is really bad down at the lower stakes, and even if you're better than your opponents, you may not be a winner pre-benefits.PDD, believe it or not, i'm not wasted when i play my LHE sessions, which are my real livelihood . when you see me play on stars, i'm half-nutbarring about 80% of the time, and most of the remainder i'm experimenting with a new sort of style, lol.

[jmbreslin 0]

razz is just a game of a lot of coinflips, basically, so you should really be experiencing as many big winners as you do big losers.

So if it's a game of coinflips, how do you really make any money over the long run? Sure you'll steal pots now and then, but then you have the rake taking some of that away. Doesn't this mean the good players will at best just be able to eke out a small profit?

also, keep in mind that you simply may not be a longterm winner at some games. rake is really bad down at the lower stakes, and even if you're better than your opponents, you may not be a winner pre-benefits.

You could be right and I haven't put in anywhere near the number of hands needed to assess this. It's just that I'm experiencing a level of frustration with these cash games that I never experienced with NLHE SnGs. No matter what bad runs I've gone through playing SnGs, I've always been profitable and I've never struggled to make a go of it like I have been with O8, Stud-8, and Razz. The thing about SnGs is that because the potential reward greatly outweighs the potential risk, the returns from a good run will more than offset the losses from a bad run. In cash games, though, the potential reward is much lower relative to the potential risk, which makes it harder to profit. Especially in high variance, limit-structure games. I really wonder whether there are people who actually make decent money playing games like cash LO8, Stud/Stud-8, and Razz, or whether these are more "entertainment" games (or profitable in the context of mixed games).

[Pdiddydog 0]

I really wonder whether there are people who actually make decent money playing games like cash LO8, Stud/Stud-8, and Razz, or whether these are more "entertainment" games (or profitable in the context of mixed games).

There really is no "entertainment" game in poker unless you're playing recreationally. I've had success at all the above games, more so the eight or better games, but I'm definitely a winning Stud Hi and Razz cash game player.

[antistuff 0]

So if it's a game of coinflips, how do you really make any money over the long run? Sure you'll steal pots now and then, but then you have the rake taking some of that away. Doesn't this mean the good players will at best just be able to eke out a small profit?You could be right and I haven't put in anywhere near the number of hands needed to assess this. It's just that I'm experiencing a level of frustration with these cash games that I never experienced with NLHE SnGs. No matter what bad runs I've gone through playing SnGs, I've always been profitable and I've never struggled to make a go of it like I have been with O8, Stud-8, and Razz. The thing about SnGs is that because the potential reward greatly outweighs the potential risk, the returns from a good run will more than offset the losses from a bad run. In cash games, though, the potential reward is much lower relative to the potential risk, which makes it harder to profit. Especially in high variance, limit-structure games. I really wonder whether there are people who actually make decent money playing games like cash LO8, Stud/Stud-8, and Razz, or whether these are more "entertainment" games (or profitable in the context of mixed games).

you need to play the games you win at. and then experiment with other games. but first what you can win at. if you win at nlhe sngs then make that your "bread and butter" game and then occasionally play other games at lower stakes. also, and its always hard to say this to somebody. but the trend you described of large losing sessions and small winning sessions is usually one of the hallmarks of losing play.

[antistuff 0]

So if it's a game of coinflips, how do you really make any money over the long run? Sure you'll steal pots now and then, but then you have the rake taking some of that away. Doesn't this mean the good players will at best just be able to eke out a small profit?You could be right and I haven't put in anywhere near the number of hands needed to assess this. It's just that I'm experiencing a level of frustration with these cash games that I never experienced with NLHE SnGs. No matter what bad runs I've gone through playing SnGs, I've always been profitable and I've never struggled to make a go of it like I have been with O8, Stud-8, and Razz. The thing about SnGs is that because the potential reward greatly outweighs the potential risk, the returns from a good run will more than offset the losses from a bad run. In cash games, though, the potential reward is much lower relative to the potential risk, which makes it harder to profit. Especially in high variance, limit-structure games. I really wonder whether there are people who actually make decent money playing games like cash LO8, Stud/Stud-8, and Razz, or whether these are more "entertainment" games (or profitable in the context of mixed games).

there are people who do, but remember its less than you think. in my opinion (and experience) the estimate of 5% of poker players being long term winners is actually a bit high. being a tong term winner in any poker game is an anomaly of sorts.

[ahosang 0]

So if it's a game of coinflips, how do you really make any money over the long run? Sure you'll steal pots now and then, but then you have the rake taking some of that away. Doesn't this mean the good players will at best just be able to eke out a small profit?You could be right and I haven't put in anywhere near the number of hands needed to assess this. It's just that I'm experiencing a level of frustration with these cash games that I never experienced with NLHE SnGs. No matter what bad runs I've gone through playing SnGs, I've always been profitable and I've never struggled to make a go of it like I have been with O8, Stud-8, and Razz. The thing about SnGs is that because the potential reward greatly outweighs the potential risk, the returns from a good run will more than offset the losses from a bad run. In cash games, though, the potential reward is much lower relative to the potential risk, which makes it harder to profit. Especially in high variance, limit-structure games. I really wonder whether there are people who actually make decent money playing games like cash LO8, Stud/Stud-8, and Razz, or whether these are more "entertainment" games (or profitable in the context of mixed games).

Stud8 could easily be re-named 'Patience'. If there are no poor players, then the game becomes like waiting for someone to lose discipline. Keep yours and you'll never be a loser.