The Old Qq In A 3 Bet Pot Bit

[whatgreatis 0]

Fold flop.Even easier fold on the turn.Think about villains 3bet ranges and now think about what we beat after that turn.Villains assumed 3bet range- AA KK QQ(super unlikely) JJ 1010 AK AQwhich ones do we beat by the turn?1010 AQHow likely is it that he'd want to empty the clip with 1010? Pretty unlikely since it has some show down value.

[BellaireDrew 2]

You say the guy has a range of 77+ AT+ and 67s+ and you're not 4betting? /thread.

maybe i should 4 bet pre but i dont think he calls/shoves a large rangeI could be wrong, I usually am

[whatgreatis 0]

maybe i should 4 bet pre but i dont think he calls/shoves a large rangeI could be wrong, I usually am

I didn't even see that. I assumed his 3betting range was much smaller. If that's how big his range is, you should be 4betting if he'll call/shove with worse.Is he going to empty the clip with A10 or 6s7s? That's important information if you gave him a accurate 3betting range.

[BellaireDrew 2]

I didn't even see that. I assumed his 3betting range was much smaller. If that's how big his range is, you should be 4betting if he'll call/shove with worse.Is he going to empty the clip with A10 or 6s7s? That's important information if you gave him a accurate 3betting range.

I have seen him 3 barrell in several spots but never seen his cards

[Sheiky 0]

decided to call flop and eval turn. what do you do now?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($49.95)Hero ($70.50)SB ($47.70)BB ($112.45)UTG ($33.05)MP ($36.85)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q. UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB raises to $7, UTG folds, Hero calls $5.Flop: ($14.75) K, 4, K(2 players)BB bets $8.6, Hero calls $8.60.Turn: ($31.95) J(2 players)BB bets $11.5, Hero ?

Calllls

I think cardcore's theorem might apply here. Shovel?

Are you bluffing? Or do you want to get called? I really can't tell

If villain is 3betting a lot shouldn't we be 4betting wider? I think it's a great time to 4bet. 4betting from LP against someone that 3bets out of the blinds doesn't get a ton of respect. I 4 bet to $19-21 pf.As played, I think you can call the turn, that bet is weird small.

Pf is made slightly awkward with stack sizes, but I still prefer 4-betting to, the plus side to having 140BBs behind is that he can flat the 4 bet with a wider range that he normaly wouldn't(and shouldn't)

[Dictius 0]

Even if he is 3betting range is wide, I doubt he has a really wide range for calling a 4bet, so I'm fine with calling pf.We kept his range wide by calling the 3bet pf, then he is probably cbetting the flop with a wide range also. Raising the flop is silly, he won't call a raise with worse than QQ often. So calling the flop and reevaluating on the turn seems good. Probably folding to a decent sized turn bet on any non Q/K turn.The tiny bet on the turn is sick, it makes it look cheap to call but we could really be getting value-owned by a K drawing very slim. I guess he could be betting 77-TT/AQ/AJ or something. I guess I'd call the turn because of the odds we are getting and you said in the OP he is capable of double barreling, but I'm not really happy about it.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Turn is any easy fold imo. His aggression factor is too high for a nit to make me consider bluffing him.

[BaseJester 1]

Gross. I think the flop is a raise/fold. I raise to like $22 and fold to a shove.

[BellaireDrew 2]

Calllls

ok now what?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($49.95)Hero ($70.50)SB ($47.70)BB ($112.45)UTG ($33.05)MP ($36.85)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q. UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB raises to $7, UTG folds, Hero calls $5.Flop: ($14.75) K, 4, K(2 players)BB bets $8.6, Hero calls $8.60.Turn: ($31.95) J(2 players)BB bets $11.5, Hero calls $11.50.River: ($54.95) 2(2 players)BB bets $85.35 (All-In), Hero?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

please tell me you folded the river

[David_Nicoson 1]

River: ($54.95) 2(2 players)BB bets $85.35 (All-In), Hero?

Hero has only $43.40 left, so his bet size on the river is a little deceptive.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Hero has only $43.40 left, so his bet size on the river is a little deceptive.

Still a fold... the one draw that existed hit... what are we hoping he has when we call?

[David_Nicoson 1]

The isn't a bad flop for us against a more mundane preflop 3-bet range.

--- 482,869,728  games	 0.005 secs	96,573,945,600  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	43.950%	  42.72% 	01.23% 		 206297052 	  5923974.00   { 99+, AKs, AKo }Hand 1: 	56.050%	  54.82% 	01.23% 		 264724728 	  5923974.00   { QQ }201,960  games	 0.020 secs	10,098,000  games/secBoard: Kc 4c KsDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	46.750%	  45.27% 	01.48% 			 91419 		 2997.00   { 99+, AKs, AKo }Hand 1: 	53.250%	  51.77% 	01.48% 			104547 		 2997.00   { QQ }---

I'm not really sure what to make of the actual villain's preflop play, except to say that I think we should 4-bet against it like NoBBiR & whatgreatis suggested.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I have seen him 3 barrell in several spots but never seen his cards

That's an unfortunate choice of terms then, in my opinion. "3-barrel" implies bluff to me. People don't say he made a 3-barrel value bet.

[BellaireDrew 2]

That's an unfortunate choice of terms then, in my opinion. "3-barrel" implies bluff to me. People don't say he made a 3-barrel value bet.

perhaps, i will rephrase, i have seen him fire multi streets that have not gone to showdown.

[mln_falcon 0]

Gross. I think the flop is a raise/fold. I raise to like $22 and fold to a shove.

QFT, never ever raise that flop without the intention of getting it in. Raise folding is the worst line you can take.Ewww, I actually got angry at that post desmoines, please tell me it was a level.For the hand, I like a 4 bet pf against a habitual 3 bettor, even if you get a fold, maybe it will slow him down. On flop I probably raise call a shove, calling is ok.Turn is gross, need to be playing to make a decision as I would want a read, and your one line isn't enough for me. But calling is not horrible because you've said you've seen him barrell multiple streets.River is really really interesting. You really need to know what level villain is on to get the right move, because he is repping a really narrow range if he's competent, that is, JJ or the nut flush. If villain is good his range widens to include AA and AK. But it's still a really narrow range that he is betting for value on the river. I'm tempted to call this river as played, but I'm very likely wrong.Very interesting hand, nice post.EDIT: after seeing the stove results, I like a raise on the flop even more.

[mtdesmoines 3]

ok now what?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($49.95)Hero ($70.50)SB ($47.70)BB ($112.45)UTG ($33.05)MP ($36.85)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q. UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB raises to $7, UTG folds, Hero calls $5.Flop: ($14.75) K, 4, K(2 players)BB bets $8.6, Hero calls $8.60.Turn: ($31.95) J(2 players)BB bets $11.5, Hero calls $11.50.River: ($54.95) 2(2 players)BB bets $85.35 (All-In), Hero?

Did anyone notice the flop call, turn call line cost just as much as the raise / fold line on the flop? And we ended up in a worse spot on the river than we had on the flop .. considering calling a shove on a suited, paired board with pressure holding QQ.

[Sheiky 0]

ok now what?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($49.95)Hero ($70.50)SB ($47.70)BB ($112.45)UTG ($33.05)MP ($36.85)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q. UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB raises to $7, UTG folds, Hero calls $5.Flop: ($14.75) K, 4, K(2 players)BB bets $8.6, Hero calls $8.60.Turn: ($31.95) J(2 players)BB bets $11.5, Hero calls $11.50.River: ($54.95) 2(2 players)BB bets $85.35 (All-In), Hero?

Definite fold, now he shoves the river his turn bet looks a lot more ominous and the flush hit as well, this could definitely be a retarded desperation bluff some % of the time, but you just can't call without any other info on the player.

Did anyone notice the flop call, turn call line cost just as much as the raise / fold line on the flop? And we ended up in a worse spot on the river than we had on the flop .. considering calling a shove on a suited, paired board with pressure holding QQ.

That's biased thinking though because his river shove indicates that he has a better hand, you're assuming that your line is right because of the way THIS hand played out and ignoring the fact he doesn't play 100% of his hand range this way.

[tskillz187 0]

Did anyone notice the flop call, turn call line cost just as much as the raise / fold line on the flop? And we ended up in a worse spot on the river than we had on the flop .. considering calling a shove on a suited, paired board with pressure holding QQ.

Raise/folding is bad. You win pots right away and often think it;s right because you aren;t playing big pots, but it's not that close. Using your own example here. Calling flop, we see a turn (one in which we could fill up!), plus we get more info by villain either betting or checking, he bets small again, we get to call again with another chance to fill up and to get more info on villain's hand range. In raise/fold flop you fold out worse hands, get shoved by better, and flush draws push us off! By calling with the same money we could have used raising we got to the river and got 3 streets of information.The flop is the easiest street to play in NLHE. It's what everyone learns and practices to play. Why let villain play perfectly on the flop against us?As for the hand he shoves river, I think this is a clear river fold. Villain just isn't showing up with a bluff here often, our hand looks like flush draw played passively. I doubt he turns JJ into a bluff and he certainly doesn't value bet it here. I think villain shows up with Kx or flush here a lot. The hand I think is most likely by bet sizing and whatnot is KJ, gets there on turn, bets small to keep flush draw in, then when flush hits, he shoves into you knowing that flushes have to call all in. All we're beating IMO is total air gone crazy.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Raise/folding is bad. You win pots right away and often think it;s right because you aren;t playing big pots, but it's not that close. Using your own example here. Calling flop, we see a turn (one in which we could fill up!), plus we get more info by villain either betting or checking, he bets small again, we get to call again with another chance to fill up and to get more info on villain's hand range. In raise/fold flop you fold out worse hands, get shoved by better, and flush draws push us off! By calling with the same money we could have used raising we got to the river and got 3 streets of information.The flop is the easiest street to play in NLHE. It's what everyone learns and practices to play. Why let villain play perfectly on the flop against us?As for the hand he shoves river, I think this is a clear river fold. Villain just isn't showing up with a bluff here often, our hand looks like flush draw played passively. I doubt he turns JJ into a bluff and he certainly doesn't value bet it here. I think villain shows up with Kx or flush here a lot. The hand I think is most likely by bet sizing and whatnot is KJ, gets there on turn, bets small to keep flush draw in, then when flush hits, he shoves into you knowing that flushes have to call all in. All we're beating IMO is total air gone crazy.

I don't agree. if we're drawing to fill up, we'll be underfull ... always a problem. And we're drawing to two outs. Not great odds, even with maximum implied odds included.More ... but I have to run. Sorry.

[tskillz187 0]

Underfull to....K4?

[Sheiky 0]

I don't agree. if we're drawing to fill up, we'll be underfull ... always a problem. And we're drawing to two outs. Not great odds, even with maximum implied odds included.More ... but I have to run. Sorry.

We're not calling because we think we are behind but have outs to out draw....

[AimHigher 0]

We're not calling because we think we are behind but have outs to out draw....

We're calling because we think we have the best hand but if we raise no better hands are folding and no worse hands are calling?

[Sheiky 0]

We're calling because we think we have the best hand but if we raise no better hands are folding and no worse hands are calling?

You're smart enough that that's a rhetorical question

[AimHigher 0]

You're smart enough that that's a rhetorical question