Breaking Out Of A Slump

[donk4life 34]

Wait a minute, you turned $184 into $3200 in 2 months playing $6.50 STT turbos? Something's fishy. How many of these did you play in a day?Valid point about sanity, I am already getting tired of playing these night after night and watching my bankroll inch its way up. But I will only move up when I'm ready - I will not bow to forum peer pressure!

Well, I guess that's not entirely true.In the month of May I stuck strictly to 6.50s and made around 1k.. Keep in mind, I'm also including what I've made from the Battle of the Planets, because that's based on SnGs as wellJune I did as well and made 500-600 or so but won an 11 man 180..July I probably made only around 450-500 playing 6.50s then moved up to 13s and won another 600 or soand finished 3rd in the Daily 15k for 2100....August I've just been kinda dicking around so I haven't made much..I played 3 at a time.. Probably played 30-40 a day, So I guess it was closer to 2k.. but yes it's very possible...

[donk4life 34]

What is this thread?

It's not NL HU so you don't have to worry about what this thread is.

[jmbreslin 0]

Actually, I've found that the lower the stakes you play the more textbook strategy will work.

How so? A great example is the standard raise: 3BB doesn't get any respect at micro stakes, where you can raise 3BB and end up with 3 or 4 callers. So you have to adapt and make slightly larger raises to have the same effect that you could get with 3BB raises at higher stakes. Aggression on the bubble also doesn't work as effectively because it's harder to steal blinds from people who will make loose calls and don't understand the gap concept.

[jmbreslin 0]

What is this thread?

Hey, nobody forced you to read it.

[jmbreslin 0]

I played 3 at a time.. Probably played 30-40 a day, So I guess it was closer to 2k.. but yes it's very possible...

Cripes, doesn't that get mind-numbing after a while? I'm a recreational player myself but I've always wondered if I could even handle the day-to-day grind of playing online for a living. I'd have to focus on MTTs because I'd go insane playing 30-40 STTs per day.

[potatoman 0]

FWIW I have found $10NL to be much easier to beat than $20NL.

QFTAlthough, I'm getting better...I think it's a clear benchmark.

[Dratj 0]

Don't take this too harshly. Wow, the time you spend doing this could be well spent doing other things. You are spending hours and hours trying to make pennies on the hour. You've got to move up in limits man.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Hey, nobody forced you to read it.

This is true, and I mostly didn't read it.I was asking a real question actually.

[Acid_Knight 2]

It's not NL HU so you don't have to worry about what this thread is.

I wish I had a comeback for this

[potatoman 0]

I've been on the same road you're on jmbreslin.I had no money for poker, so I grinded freerolls for like ...a year...I'd win some money - $1-$5, grind it up to maybe $18-$30, lose it and repeat. I even grinded play money sngs for about a month and noticed that I would be a rich man if I was playing for real money. Eventually I won another freeroll dollar and took a gamble on a $0.60 sng. Cashed, played another one, cashed.My current bankroll (good enough to play $50nl very comfortably) is from that $1. I've grinded up through $0.60, $1, $2, back to $1, back to $0.60, $1, $2, $5, $2, $5, $10 and now $20.If I'd moved up as quickly as some of these guys recommend I'd be broke and super pissed, at myself.Moving down limits is very wise. It might not be the best strategy for everyone, but I know it's worked for me. Also, I plan on spending a long time at the $20 sng level, regardless of what my tournament cashes may do to my bankroll. Even though i could be rolled for $50 sngs, that doesn't mean I would make any money playing them.So I respect your decision to be bankroll conscience. But some others have made valid points.300 buyins for sngs is pushing the boundaries. 100 buyins is plenty. A bad run of cards shouldn't hurt your bankroll so much that it hurts your play, but it should sting a little bit. You have to hate to lose and really want to win to be successful. I'm not telling you what to do, and don't give into this 20-40 buyins is plenty crap either. But I would set your buyins at around 100 for the longterm. Short-term, do what you need to do.Now, that out of the way, there's a much bigger mistake you're making - focusing on one day's performance. Let's say I play five sngs today - cash 4/5.Tomorrow I play another five - cash 1/5, bubbling 4 times.The following day I down eight Redbulls and proceed to 10 table my sngs, cashing 45 times out of 100 with a ROI of 17.What do these days have in common? None of them are really significant, yet if I dwell on them, they could have a very significant affect on my mood - positively or negatively. I could be the best sng player in the world. I could have blindly shoved every other hand and gotten the exact same results - both cases unlikely, but possible.My advice - focus on your play and don't even look at your bankroll. Seriously, once you've decided the stakes you can afford and when you will move up or down, put it out of your mind. You will play better and you will feel better since any small downswings should go largely unnoticed. I usually review my game after every 100 sngs( 1-2 weeks of play). Finally, re: "sngs are solved, etc." I get that. They are. I'm working very hard to put my game in line with the gold standard right now, with great results at the $20 level.At the micro level I played, while what would be considered "standard" should still earn you a decent ROI, you have to make adjustment to playing against players who haven't the first clue how to play poker or how to play the bubble. The shove/fold equation most people plug their hands into usually instructs you to put players on a calling range or a shoving range.This is extremely difficult to do at this level. Added to that, most of these donks do the exact opposite of what they should. They shove less often and call way more then they should. Or they do both WAY too often.To give an extreme example, with everyone at 10 bb, it folds to me in the sb with Q4s. In a $20 nl game, this is probably gonna be a shove. In the $0.60 game, it's usually a clear fold. First, I'm going to get called a MUCH higher percentage of the time . Secondly, why the hell would I risk ruin in a marginal spot, when the rest of my opponents are going to make HUGE mistakes and either knock each other out or get busted by me. Compare this to the $22 level. More often than not the good players reach the bubble and they know somewhat what they're doing. People play less pots, people rarely flat call raises out of position. There's no free lunch, usually. The only way to really survive is to pick up blinds. Whoever does this the best is probably cashing and whoever does this the worst is probably bubbling. That means doing everything you can not to give up an inch and playing your standard push/fold game assuming blinds are at a certain level and in a $20 nl game they almost always are, even with a great blind structure.Short version: 1) You can still move up and be a huge nit. Everyone wins. 2) Don't focus on short term results/bankroll swings. Don't blog/post about daily results. Think monthly/yearly. But mostly, focus on your game.And yeah, the book's out next May. Sorry for the length.

[SCS 0]

How so? A great example is the standard raise: 3BB doesn't get any respect at micro stakes, where you can raise 3BB and end up with 3 or 4 callers. So you have to adapt and make slightly larger raises to have the same effect that you could get with 3BB raises at higher stakes. Aggression on the bubble also doesn't work as effectively because it's harder to steal blinds from people who will make loose calls and don't understand the gap concept.

Value bet and raise when you have a hand, check and fold if you don't.Value bet thinner at lower stakes since everyone else is calling preflop with worse hands.Make your bet sizes bigger when you have a made hand and smaller when you are semibluffing or have air. The majority of opponents won't be paying enough attention to be able to exploit this.It's much easier to play against opponents who will flat call your raises preflop than it is to play against opponents who will 3 bet you light in position.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

First, what is FR? Second, I just couldn't make a go of FLO8 when I tried. I'm marginally profitable at PLO8 but a losing player at FLO8 (insert small sample disclaimer here). There may be less variance in FLO8 but it's replaced by the frustration of being drawn out on repeatedly.

FR = Full Ring (as you know I was an avid 6max player for awhile so I thought I'd clarify)

[donk4life 34]

Cripes, doesn't that get mind-numbing after a while? I'm a recreational player myself but I've always wondered if I could even handle the day-to-day grind of playing online for a living. I'd have to focus on MTTs because I'd go insane playing 30-40 STTs per day.

Well see, that's why I usually have a MTT open..I dedicate most of my time to STT's, especially in the morning...But in the afternoon I'll usually have the daily 30k or an 11 180 man open, or I'll go even cheaper and just jump in a 2.20 turbo..

[jmbreslin 0]

This is true, and I mostly didn't read it.I was asking a real question actually.

Oh, okay. Just read the first post and that will tell you what you need to know (assuming you really care).

[jmbreslin 0]

Great post, potatoman. Nice to see that there is at least one person at FCP who doesn't think I'm completely insane.

If I'd moved up as quickly as some of these guys recommend I'd be broke and super pissed, at myself.So I respect your decision to be bankroll conscience.

The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that my decision about what level I'm going to play at (or anyone's decision) isn't just a bankroll decision, it also depends on my comfort/confidence level and where I am in my skill development. If I think I need to stay at a lower level or move down to work on some aspects of my game (including my confidence) before I move up a level, then that's what I'm going to do. Maybe if other people did this more often there wouldn't be so many busto threads in the general forum.

My advice - focus on your play and don't even look at your bankroll. Seriously, once you've decided the stakes you can afford and when you will move up or down, put it out of your mind. You will play better and you will feel better since any small downswings should go largely unnoticed. I usually review my game after every 100 sngs( 1-2 weeks of play).

Well, first of all the only reason I'm focusing on the day to day changes in my bankroll is because I wanted to track my short term results as I go through this rebuilding process. That said, I don't quite agree with not focusing on my bankroll at all because that is the only barometer of success I have available. I can't exactly conclude that I'm feeling good about my play if I'm a losing player. I do understand variance and so I don't freak out when I hit losing streaks, but when the downturn started stretching from days into weeks and then weeks into months, it started to affect me. This is the first time in a year of playing that I've seen any real downtrend in my bankroll. I decided to take an extra cautious approach because this initial roll is all I've committed to poker - going busto and reloading is not an option for me.

[jmbreslin 0]

Bankroll took a bit of a hit today but overall I was satisfied with the way I played. In the first STT I got it in good 3 times, losing 2 of them to the same idiot donk (JJ<A5 and then 99<QT) and splitting the third (JJ vs AJ). Eventually busted out desperately short when my AA lost to a flopped flush. In another one I turned up the aggression dial on the bubble and unfortunately ran into a better hand (pushed AT, called by AQ). I also tried a $2.20 sat to the Hundred Grand but couldn't get much going and busted out in 24th (17 paid) when I pushed AJ and ran into QQ. I did finish the session on a high note, taking down my fiinal STT after overcoming a chip deficit against a player who started off very loose passive but turned up his aggression dial part way through the HU match. I was pleased at how I was able to adjust and TID.Plan is to spend a bit more time working on my late-stage aggression and HU play before returning to the $3.40 level.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

here's a hand from a $1 STT I tried at lunch earlier for u JmbreslinPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)BB (t1330)UTG (t3600)Hero (t4685)CO (t1110)Button (t1135)SB (t1640)Preflop: Hero is MP with K , A . 1 fold, Hero raises to t1350, 3 folds, BB calls t1180 (All-In).Flop: (t2755) J , 5 , 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t2755) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t2755) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: t2735Results in white below: BB has Ks 7s (straight, eight high). Hero has Kd Ad (high card, ace). Outcome: BB wins t2735.

[jmbreslin 0]

Interesting strategery. Were you hoping your huge raise would be perceived as weakness not wanting to get called? Did you have a crazy LAG image? Or were you just screwing around?

[Merby 3]

Interesting strategery. Were you hoping your huge raise would be perceived as weakness not wanting to get called? Did you have a crazy LAG image? Or were you just screwing around?

All the remaining active opponents had M's between 5 and 7, so any 3-bet would have been all in and it would have been proper to call that 3-bet with AK(s). With that in mind, betting enough to (essentially) put them all in is perfectly fine here.

[jmbreslin 0]

Sure, I just never thought of approaching it that way. I'd probably make my standard raise and call a shove. What are the advantages of playing it this way?

[TravisG 0]

Sure, I just never thought of approaching it that way. I'd probably make my standard raise and call a shove. What are the advantages of playing it this way?

you avoid weird postflop situations.

[jmbreslin 0]

Like what? Hero certainly isn't going to fold to a stop-n-go in this situation so it's six of one, half dozen of the other. Perhaps if the shorties were a bit deeper it might help avoid being pushed off the flop, but not here.

[TravisG 0]

Like what? Hero certainly isn't going to fold to a stop-n-go in this situation so it's six of one, half dozen of the other. Perhaps if the shorties were a bit deeper it might help avoid being pushed off the flop, but not here.

i still hate to cbetpush on a 49J board with ak. anyways, i think playing it this way makes no difference with these stack sizes.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

I figured any raise I put in would put the shorties all in so why not just make the raise big enough to put them in preflop. plus I had pushed a couple of times when folded to the SB he'd min raise and I'd shove over the top he'd fold. So I thought there was a decent chance I'd get called light which I thought would be a good thing.....lol

[Bessel 0]

QFTAlthough, I'm getting better...I think it's a clear benchmark.

Hmmm my error. I meant $20NL is easier than $10NL.