Pedro A Hall Of Famer?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

So I was listening to ESPN radio, waiting for my favorite show, "The Kellerman and Kinney Show" out of New York to come on, and I thought I'd see how much Mike and Mike I could stomach. Mike and Mike weren't there, but Tommy John was, along with some hack DJ. So the hack starts asking Tommy John if he thinks some guys, like Smoltz and Schilling should be in the hall of fame, and there was some debate. Then the hack says" well, what about Pedro" John says, instantly "No" the hack, to his credit says " Really? Not even Pedro" followed by another insta "no" The hack then says " but he has 3 Cy Youngs" and John says " that's nice".Basically, Tommy John didn't think anyone who had less wins than he did belonged in the hall of fame, since he wasn't in the hall of fame. Not taking into account A) the way the game has changed, or B) the dominance of the pitcher at his peak. I understand sour grapes and all, but I still couldn't believe what I was hearing, how completely dismissive he was of Pedro. It's shocking to me that this guy, 12 wins from 300 and an almost hall of famer, could be so biter, place so much importance on total wins ( particularly since it's now a 5 man rotation with pitch counts/ relief specialists, etc) and how, in general, he was dismissive of complete greatness.I'll grant you, that Pedro doesn't have some of the career numbers of some pitchers, because he was oft injured. But at his peak, during his best years, he was maybe the best pitcher who ever lived. Certainly he was the greatest pitcher I've ever seen. Surely, when your peak is that high, you have to be a hall of famer ( like Koufax and Drysdale, for example, who have low win totals, but high peaks). If the hall of fame should be about anything, it should be about the greatest players, not necessarily the ones who stayed healthy and hung around long enough to pile up numbers, but the truly awe inspiring great. I'd personally put Pedro in the super hall of fame, and rate him a top 5 pitcher of all time.So, I guess I'm asking, is there anyone who agress with this old, bitter bag of bones Tommy John? Is there anyone who thinks Pedro doesn't deserve to be in the hall?

[7s7c 0]

So, I guess I'm asking, is there anyone who agress with this old, bitter bag of bones Tommy John? Is there anyone who thinks Pedro doesn't deserve to be in the hall?

No. Tommy John = instaban

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

No. Tommy John = instaban

lyeah, in this steroid era, Pedro seems like the most no brainer HoFer out there. The numbers he put up, at the height of the juiced ball era, are singularly impressive.

[PMJackson21 0]

Tommy John is an idiot and Tommy Lasorda is an idiot for telling Dodger management that Pedro would never hold up as a starter. Delino ****ing Deshields? He was like a 2B version of Juan Pierre.Thanks for tilting me early in the morning, BigD. Pedro = first ballot.

[dEv~ 19]

Pedro's in the hall purely for this...

[CaneBrain 95]

Pedro Martinez is a lock Hall of Famer. Lock.Tommy John is most famous for a surgery. And rightly so. Let him be bitter.Fwiw,Pedro = yes (his peak was better than anyone's peak)Smoltz = yes (great starter AND a great closer which is almost unique.....plus he was the Braves best big game pitcher)Schilling = Maybe (he is the toughest one to figure.....I say yes he is in but I think it is a legit debate)

[freak2304 0]

Pedro Martinez is a lock Hall of Famer. Lock.Tommy John is most famous for a surgery. And rightly so. Let him be bitter.Fwiw,Pedro = yes (his peak was better than anyone's peak)Smoltz = yes (great starter AND a great closer which is almost unique.....plus he was the Braves best big game pitcher)Schilling = Maybe (he is the toughest one to figure.....I say yes he is in but I think it is a legit debate)

I think all 3 will eventually get in. Schilling's post-season accomplishments will push him over the top, imo.

[KowboyKoop 0]

I had a guy at work a while ago try to tell me that Greg Maddux wasn't a lock for the HOF. This made me want to kill myself. I made sure to offer him a bet of any amount with any odds that Madduz gets in on the first ballot....so I'll have ten bucks coming to me in a few years. Hooray me.

[CaneBrain 95]

I had a guy at work a while ago try to tell me that Greg Maddux wasn't a lock for the HOF. This made me want to kill myself. I made sure to offer him a bet of any amount with any odds that Madduz gets in on the first ballot....so I'll have ten bucks coming to me in a few years. Hooray me.

some people are stupid. Greg Maddux is more of a lock than Pedro or Smoltz.

[mk 11]

if pedro isn't first ballot unanimous, no one is.all-time rankings:Adjusted ERA+: 1K/9: 3W%: 3K/BB: 3WHIP: 3

[CaneBrain 95]

if pedro isn't first ballot unanimous, no one is.all-time rankings:Adjusted ERA+: 1K/9: 3W%: 3K/BB: 3WHIP: 3

lol. /thread.

[El Guapo 8]

I was going to chime in but between Cain and MK not much more I can add.

[AmScray 355]

Please, someone lay action on either Pedro or Smoltz not getting in the hall (ovb, I want a better price for Smoltz)Pedro is 100% in the hall, and not just because of one Dwight Gooden season, either.

[timwakefield 68]

I think we've had about 6 threads about Pedro vs Koufax. Koufax is considered one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Like top 5, right - or at least top 5 lefties. If Pedro had retired after 2004 he would have had a nearly identical career to Koufax length-wise, but with notably better numbers and while pitching at the height of the steroid era. His peak years were as good (if not better) than any pitcher in history has ever been. I've posted this before but I'll do it again in case anybody missed it: These are just some snippets from a thread on sonsofsamhorn.com about Pedro's peak.

It amazes me that folks compare Koufax and Pedro; Koufax just isn't in Pedro's league. Pedro's peak was light years ahead of Koufax's relative to what the other pitchers in the league were doing.In five separate years, Martinez led the American League (in the case of 1997: National League) in every one of the following categories:1. ERA2. Opponent's average3. Opponent's on base percentage4. Adjusted, or normalized, ERA (according to ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia)I believe Pedro only gave up one home run to a righthanded batter all season in 1999.About the 2000 season:The American League ERA in 2000 was 4.91, so Martinez’s ERA of 1.74 was 64.5% lower than the league. If we applied that standard to batting average, a batter performing at 64.5% above the league average would hit .454.Martinez went 41 innings without issuing a walk (August 2, 7th inning to September 4, 2nd inning).He allowed 5.31 hits per 9 innings and allowed only 6.636 walks and hits per nine innings. That broke Guy Hecker’s mark of 6.923, which had stood since 1882. They are the only two pitchers in history below 7.00.On June 14, after twelve starts, his ERA was 0.99 (10 earned runs in 91.2 innings). His ERA never rose above 1.81 (September 14) and he finished at 1.74.Martinez faced only three batters in 112 of his 217 innings. He faced 3 or 4 batters in 179 innings -- 82.5%. And he faced five or fewer batters in 206 of 217 innings -- a mind-boggling 94.9%.Working in a league where the average team scored 5.3 runs per game, Martinez allowed more than 3 earned runs only twice in 29 starts (June 25 and August 24). He allowed 2 runs or less in 21 starts and 1 run or less in 17 starts.Here are the numbers on his six losses:0-6, 2.44 ERA -- 48 IP, 30 H, 13R, 8 BB, 60KRoger Clemens's ERA [second to Pedro]was more than twice Martinez's. That difference of 1.96 was the largest in history. Applying that difference to the rest of the qualifying pitchers, Clemens was actually closer to #38 [Rolando Arrojo, 5.63 ERA] than he was to #1.

[keith crime 8]

Bill James had him 29 th best of all time as of 2000"Seven factorial that is seven times six time 5 etc - is 5040. Ten is not much larger than 7 but ten factorial is 3,6 million - 700,000 times larger. Stephen Jay Gould once expressed the thought that when the time comes that we finally understand the difference between the mind of a man and the mind of a monkey it will turn out to be something simple like this ...I think of that in connection with Pedro. How can he be so much better than the other pitchers? His fastball is good but there are 20 or 50 people in the league who throw just as hard. His curve isn't better than anyone else's. His control isn't. but he is vastly better in toto because he has some additional factors - his ability to change his arm angle his ability to change speeds on all of his pitches without losing control - which interact to make gemetric combinations."His no hit relief appearance when he was hurt in the ALCS against the Indians in Game 7 is the greatest pitched game I've ever seentotal lock despite the fact that it's actually shocking that he doesn't have more wins

[chgocubs99 0]

Pedro Martinez is unquestionably a first ballot unanimous Hall of Famer. It is the biggest no-brainer in the history of the universe. There is no debate. There is no discussion. It's so obvious that a 2 year old could figure it out with little or no time to think. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand baseball in any way, is taking the opposite side just to do it, or is completely ignorant to one or a series of facts, since they all lead to one conclusion: He's in. If he is not a unanimous first ballot hall of famer, anyone who did not vote for him should have their voting rights permanently revoked.

[checkymcfold 0]

I had a guy at work a while ago try to tell me that Greg Maddux wasn't a lock for the HOF. This made me want to kill myself. I made sure to offer him a bet of any amount with any odds that Madduz gets in on the first ballot....so I'll have ten bucks coming to me in a few years. Hooray me.

you got served, imo. maddux will still be throwing 82 mph darts 20 years after you're dead.also, LOL at tards who think that pedro isn't a lock for the HOF. the distance between other pitchers and pedro during his peak was entirely unparalleled in the modern era. i have no problem saying that pedro's peak in the late 90s-early 21st century was the best of any pitcher, ever, and the only way you could even begin to rationalize not putting the guy in the HOF is by making a stupid argument that longevity is more important than how well a guy dominated the competition.as to smoltz, he SHOULD be a first ballot guy, but i'd expect it to take 2-3 go rounds for him to get the place in the hall that he deserves.and schilling, well, i think he should get in near the end of his eligibility, though if he doesn't come back next year and get a few more wins, i wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't make it in. that wouldn't bug me nearly as badly as smoltz or pedro, though.

[timwakefield 68]

I think of that in connection with Pedro. How can he be so much better than the other pitchers? His fastball is good but there are 20 or 50 people in the league who throw just as hard. His curve isn't better than anyone else's. His control isn't. but he is vastly better in toto because he has some additional factors - his ability to change his arm angle his ability to change speeds on all of his pitches without losing control - which interact to make gemetric combinations."

Definitely the thing that made him so outstanding was his ability to throw any pitch in any situation for a strike. But his fastball/changeup combination has gotta be one of the best ever. He'd hit 96-97 with movement and then drop to 77 on the changeup with the exact same arm motion. And when his curveball was really on it was retarded, especially with his ability to locate.FWIW the main thing that allowed/allows him to be so good are very long fingers - he's able to hold the ball a split second longer than most pitchers and put more spin on it.

you got served, imo. maddux will still be throwing 82 mph darts 20 years after you're dead.

:lol:Smoltz is first ballot I think, and I'd be somewhat surprised if Schilling ever makes it. If he does it'll be because he's been so great in the postseason.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Bill James had him 29 th best of all time as of 2000"Seven factorial that is seven times six time 5 etc - is 5040. Ten is not much larger than 7 but ten factorial is 3,6 million - 700,000 times larger. Stephen Jay Gould once expressed the thought that when the time comes that we finally understand the difference between the mind of a man and the mind of a monkey it will turn out to be something simple like this ...I think of that in connection with Pedro. How can he be so much better than the other pitchers? His fastball is good but there are 20 or 50 people in the league who throw just as hard. His curve isn't better than anyone else's. His control isn't. but he is vastly better in toto because he has some additional factors - his ability to change his arm angle his ability to change speeds on all of his pitches without losing control - which interact to make gemetric combinations."His no hit relief appearance when he was hurt in the ALCS against the Indians in Game 7 is the greatest pitched game I've ever seentotal lock despite the fact that it's actually shocking that he doesn't have more wins

I've heard his fastball has pretty much the sickest movement on it.

Pedro Martinez is unquestionably a first ballot unanimous Hall of Famer. It is the biggest no-brainer in the history of the universe. There is no debate. There is no discussion. It's so obvious that a 2 year old could figure it out with little or no time to think. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand baseball in any way, is taking the opposite side just to do it, or is completely ignorant to one or a series of facts, since they all lead to one conclusion: He's in. If he is not a unanimous first ballot hall of famer, anyone who did not vote for him should have their voting rights permanently revoked.

Or is a bitter ex-mediocre pitcher that hung around the league 10 years after he should have retired, pilling up wins in a shameless attempt to get into the hall of fame, failed in that shameless attempt, and is so bitter about it that he will not acknowledge his betters. If John thinks he's a better pitcher than pedro, he's smoking sherm. Also, you're saucy when you've been drinking, CC99. Your anger and bitterness are much more amusing.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Here are the numbers on his six losses:0-6, 2.44 ERA -- 48 IP, 30 H, 13R, 8 BB, 60K

LOL I skimmed over Tim's post my first time looking it over, as he's preaching to the choir w/r/t pedro's peak. But that is my new favorite pedro stat from that season. If he would have projected those numbers for the entire season ( other than the actual L's, obv) then he STILL would have won the cy young going away. That's just the sickest thing I've ever seen. I wish I could jump in a time machine and watch every one of his starts from that year. God I love Pedro. I also like how he and the Red Sox fan's have parted ways amicably. It would be a shame for the Red Sox fans to be bitter about Pedro the way they are about Clemens. God I wish the cubs would have traded for him and signed him instead of the sox. 98 and 03's play off runs would have gone a little different, me thinks.

[pckt10s 0]

sure why not...

[timwakefield 68]

I also like how he and the Red Sox fan's have parted ways amicably. It would be a shame for the Red Sox fans to be bitter about Pedro the way they are about Clemens.

Oh absolutely. Pretty much the only reason Sox fans hate Clemens is that he went to the Yankees. Also, anybody that was on our team in '04 is loved forever in Boston, with the sole exception of Johnny Damon (cuz he went to the Yankees and stayed there). But Pedro was a God in Boston for 7 years. The fact that he's been too oft-injured to be a God for the Mets makes us love him even more I think (that we were lucky enough to watch him in his prime).

God I wish the cubs would have traded for him and signed him instead of the sox. 98 and 03's play off runs would have gone a little different, me thinks.

Tony Armas and Carl Pavano for Pedro Martinez is one of the great trades of all time, if you're a Red Sox fan that is . It's not as hilarious as Pedro for Delino because the Expos needed to trade him cuz they couldn't afford him, and they did get our top pitching prospect. Dan Duquette should get more credit than he does - he signed Pedro, Manny, and also pulled a trade rivaling Pedro-Delino in hilarity: Heathcliff Slocumb - who at the time we would have traded for a bag of baseballs and a 6-pack - for Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe.

[Solodell 0]

Tommy John just is bitter he's not in. Pedro is a mortal lock. Smoltz is too IMO based on what he accomplished as a starter AND a reliever. Schilling is probably in based on postseason performance.

[keith crime 8]

I'll definitely float upstream here but I'd say Koufax was the more valuable pitcherThey worked that dude into the ground in the 60's - Pedro's one flaw is that he hasn't been able to work nearly as many innings If Koufax only pitched every fifth day and left after 6-8 innings he would have won a ton more gamesKoufax pitched over 300 innings 3 of his last 4 seasons - Pedros all time high is 240

[PMJackson21 0]

Koufax pitched over 300 innings 3 of his last 4 seasons - Pedros all time high is 240

With his arm falling off practically...Different eras obviously, both all time greats, and eventually both will be HoFers.