Mormons

[Loismustdie 0]

I don't have a thing to add. You guys handled Crows query very nicely. I told you it would drive him batty.

[El Guapo 8]

yes i know all that. are you saying having in god we trust on our money makes our country great?

Not at all, what I am saying is the founders of this country were primarily christians, one form or another and used the morlaity that they took from their faith and used it to form the foundation for our nation. But they were also open minded enough to make this nation free to do what we are doing right now, and that is have different beliefs and religions and discuss it openly.

[jmkiser 0]

Not at all, what I am saying is the founders of this country were primarily christians

They also had slaves, but we forgive them for that ;)Sorry, but talking about the founding fathers being Christian is a bit outdated.It's like saying that Handel had a one-track mind as a composer because of his constant use of the major chord.It's just what you did in those times.

[jmkiser 0]

I can't speak for all atheists or agnostics, but i would bet that most would agree with me on this. We do not Bash Christianity because it is Christianity. I guarantee you that if a Muslim came on the boards we would be using the same logical and scientific arguments to debate the validity of his beliefs. This would also be true for a Hindu, Jewish etc... Because as I have been trying to say again and again, The only difference between an Atheist and a religious person is taht we chose to not believe in one extra religion. I know this is cliche but it is a Fact. i wish you and other Christians at least understood taht we end up discussing Christianity more than other religions not because it more crazy than others, or we have some hidden agenda agains Christians but not with other religions. This being an American (loads of Canadians too) forum,Christianity is the religion that stands out the most.Purely for geographical reasons.

Hear hear!As an atheist, my own personal experiences and past have everything to do with Christianity. I have a higher knowledge and a much higher emotional attachment to a very fundamental Christian point of view. Also, look at the forums themselves. If BG was a Muslim, Lois was a strict Catholic, Brvhrt was a practicing Jew, etc... our focus wouldn't be on Christianity. And we're not saying the religions are all equal... they're not... there are HUGE differences in the religions. It is the criteria that negates them all that is the same. And the easiest way for an atheist to reach out to an average Christian that looks at Muslims and calls them crazy... well, it's to explain to them that for the same reason they think all the other religions are crazy, we think that their religion is crazy, too.You can cherry-pick Christianity and say it's about loving your neighbor. You can do the same with the Koran. In fact, you can extract something good out of every religion... and every religion will claim that good thing is what they are all about.Some very serious Christians can say that Islam is wrong because the Bible talks about other gods not before Him. But the average moderate Christian (what this country is made up most of) thinks the religion of Islam is crazy for a number of logical reasons..... A. they see the actions of the practitioners B. they hear stuff in the Koran about 72 virgins and angels and Mohammed ... etc etc etcAnd all we can say as atheists to relate to that typical moderate Christian is say "Hey, we critique your religion with the same standards that you logically critique Islam, Buddha, Hinduism, the Greek Gods, etc... Now you can, hopefully, understand why we're atheists".

[lordofelt 0]

Not at all, what I am saying is the founders of this country were primarily christians, one form or another and used the morlaity that they took from their faith and used it to form the foundation for our nation. But they were also open minded enough to make this nation free to do what we are doing right now, and that is have different beliefs and religions and discuss it openly.

The founding fathers were for the most part Christian but they also benefited greatly from establishing the country after much revolution and upheavel in Europe. It were these revolutions and uprising in other countries that lead to the framing of the Constitution and country more so then their faith. i.e. They saw many of the monarchs of Europe being either overthrown as in France or being forced to establish Constitutional monarchies as in England and realized the flaws of establishing a countries leader based on birth rights as opposed to based on merit and what the people wanted (democracy). This is why the US has no King or other monarchy not because of their faith, but because experience showed it was a bad concept. In fact many of the old monarchs used the religion of their country as a claim to the crown, in France Louis claimed god wanted him to be king a statement the Catholic church (official church of france) endorsed and in turn Louis allowed the church to collect tithes. In England the Monarch is the leader of the church of England and as such it is impossible to separate him/her between religious and governmental roles. This is just one example of what the founding fathers learned from other countries failures they also realized that having one government sponsored faith would lead to oppression that many had come to American in the first place to avoid. I also find it funny that people often claim that is America's strong sense of "Christian values" that make it great, and then list off a bunch of items that any practicing Christian, Jew or Atheist considers to be within their own core values. The founding fathers were great men who had great ideas of justice, equality (at the time), and governmental structure but there were many factors contributing to the countries fouding including observing other governments failures and including newer ideas of justice and equality.

[Loismustdie 0]

The founding fathers were for the most part Christian but they also benefited greatly from establishing the country after much revolution and upheavel in Europe. It were these revolutions and uprising in other countries that lead to the framing of the Constitution and country more so then their faith. i.e. They saw many of the monarchs of Europe being either overthrown as in France or being forced to establish Constitutional monarchies as in England and realized the flaws of establishing a countries leader based on birth rights as opposed to based on merit and what the people wanted (democracy). This is why the US has no King or other monarchy not because of their faith, but because experience showed it was a bad concept. In fact many of the old monarchs used the religion of their country as a claim to the crown, in France Louis claimed god wanted him to be king a statement the Catholic church (official church of france) endorsed and in turn Louis allowed the church to collect tithes. In England the Monarch is the leader of the church of England and as such it is impossible to separate him/her between religious and governmental roles. This is just one example of what the founding fathers learned from other countries failures they also realized that having one government sponsored faith would lead to oppression that many had come to American in the first place to avoid. I also find it funny that people often claim that is America's strong sense of "Christian values" that make it great, and then list off a bunch of items that any practicing Christian, Jew or Atheist considers to be within their own core values. The founding fathers were great men who had great ideas of justice, equality (at the time), and governmental structure but there were many factors contributing to the countries fouding including observing other governments failures and including newer ideas of justice and equality.

Of course other factors exist. That being said, it's no coincidence that every atheist on this board throws a shit fit when it's alluded to that Christian values, and God, are all over this countries footprints from it's inception. Sometimes misguided christian values(manifest destiny, slavery, etc.) but christian values nonetheless. And, it has largely made us the envy of the free world. Not any one thing in particular, just the overall package as it were. We all know that stew is good, right? That being said, many times the stew is good because the cook did a good job. In this case, the stew is you and I- this great country- and the cooks had christianity as there guiding light. Still do, or some semblance of it. This is undeniable, although you will deny it anyway, just as you deny God in all you do. Didn't I call it from the get go? Why, because of my brilliance? No, because you are as predictable as me when it comes to these issues, and much like me, despite evidence to the contrary, refuse to budge. Congratulations, you are now officially religious.

[Balloon guy 158]

Hear hear!As an atheist, my own personal experiences and past have everything to do with Christianity. I have a higher knowledge and a much higher emotional attachment to a very fundamental Christian point of view. Also, look at the forums themselves. If BG was a Muslim, Lois was a strict Catholic, Brvhrt was a practicing Jew, etc... our focus wouldn't be on Christianity. And we're not saying the religions are all equal... they're not... there are HUGE differences in the religions. It is the criteria that negates them all that is the same. And the easiest way for an atheist to reach out to an average Christian that looks at Muslims and calls them crazy... well, it's to explain to them that for the same reason they think all the other religions are crazy, we think that their religion is crazy, too.You know the phrase reach out and what this forum does are not even in the same dictionary right?You can cherry-pick Christianity and say it's about loving your neighbor. You can do the same with the Koran. In fact, you can extract something good out of every religion... and every religion will claim that good thing is what they are all about.Some very serious Christians can say that Islam is wrong because the Bible talks about other gods not before Him. But the average moderate Christian (what this country is made up most of) thinks the religion of Islam is crazy for a number of logical reasons..... A. they see the actions of the practitioners B. they hear stuff in the Koran about 72 virgins and angels and Mohammed ... etc etc etcAnd all we can say as atheists to relate to that typical moderate Christian is say "Hey, we critique your religion with the same standards that you logically critique Islam, Buddha, Hinduism, the Greek Gods, etc... Now you can, hopefully, understand why we're atheists".

Jm, you guys are not being misunderstood. We actually are very clear that you don't believe. We were not on the fence about your belief that there is no God. The problem is that this was a specific topic about a specific religion, and in come the athiest trying to shout out the fine points and say all religions are bad.But you guys don't get that when it comes to the differences in religion, you guys are at best 3rd graders. I have a much better udnerstanding of mormonism than all of you, so why would you feel the need to lump them all together and treat all religions as one?This may come as a shock, but the definiation of most religions does make it necessary to place values on them. A religion that teaches racism is much worse in any and all value charts than one that teaches loving your neighbor. For you guys to equate them makes you look militant. If you can't step away from your hatred for religion, than your voices are just the chants of a radical.If you guys can't step away from the "all religion is bad" mantra for a minute to look at whether a mormon is differnt than a Christian then you guys are the ones with blinders on, not us.And by the way, Huckabee is a fine man, but his tax policies are bad, so I probably won't vote for him, Mitt is a fine man, but his religion is extremely far from normalcy so I probably cannot vote for him. Rudy is way too far left, although he would be a fine match up for Hillary. I'm probably voting Obama, even though his pastor is a rascist.

[strategy 4]

Not just different; better, superior and based on holy scripture imparted to us directly from the Creator. Of course they are also directly inline with Jewish values, which makes the Judeo-Christian label accurate.

Yes. Directly from the creator... and edited/manipulated via translation many, many times by man. Oh, if only we had a first edition.

[Loismustdie 0]

Yes. Directly from the creator... and edited/manipulated via translation many, many times by man. Oh, if only we had a first edition.

Of course. Edited to be restrictive, and to teach against your very impulses? Why is it that such a smart community of individuals don't see that immediately? How dumb would you have to be to be in a position to edit the Bible and not change it to allow, say, sex outside of marriage? It's just a few strokes of a pen, a deletion here or there. So simple. Yet, still there. So, either the dumbest editors and changers of God policy alive, or you're just wrong.

[strategy 4]

Of course. Edited to be restrictive, and to teach against your very impulses? Why is it that such a smart community of individuals don't see that immediately? How dumb would you have to be to be in a position to edit the Bible and not change it to allow, say, sex outside of marriage? It's just a few strokes of a pen, a deletion here or there. So simple. Yet, still there. So, either the dumbest editors and changers of God policy alive, or you're just wrong.

It's absolutely a fact that the bible has been edited subtly (sometimes not so) and repeatedly over the years. Who cares what they changed, doesn't that somewhat contradict what BG said above?I really don't care about the content or the intent behind the editing. Just saying.

[lordofelt 0]

Of course other factors exist. That being said, it's no coincidence that every atheist on this board throws a shit fit when it's alluded to that Christian values, and God, are all over this countries footprints from it's inception. Sometimes misguided christian values(manifest destiny, slavery, etc.) but christian values nonetheless. And, it has largely made us the envy of the free world. Not any one thing in particular, just the overall package as it were. We all know that stew is good, right? That being said, many times the stew is good because the cook did a good job. In this case, the stew is you and I- this great country- and the cooks had christianity as there guiding light. Still do, or some semblance of it. This is undeniable, although you will deny it anyway, just as you deny God in all you do. Didn't I call it from the get go? Why, because of my brilliance? No, because you are as predictable as me when it comes to these issues, and much like me, despite evidence to the contrary, refuse to budge. Congratulations, you are now officially religious.

As is often the case in religous debate we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. We can agree that America is a great nation and the envy of many nations. You believe that the reason America is great is because the founders were primarily Christian and that those Christian values led the founders to create the great country that they did. I however believe that it was the founders ability to study the past and avoid mistakes made by others combined with their common sense and interpretation of justice and logic that allowed them to build the United States. These are certainly concepts found in Christianity but they are not concepts found exclusively in Christianity. I'm not trying to bash Christianity I'm simply saying that if the founders had all been atheists they would have been able to form the same great country using historical lessons and logic, I think you're giving Christianity too much credit.

[Balloon guy 158]

It's absolutely a fact that the bible has been edited subtly (sometimes not so) and repeatedly over the years. Who cares what they changed, doesn't that somewhat contradict what BG said above?I really don't care about the content or the intent behind the editing. Just saying.

Textual Critism is probably the strongest area that the defenders of the Bible have had. You may disagree with what's written, or Who wrote it, but there has not been any 'new' discoveries in regards to what the original words were. In fact the last big discovery that could possibly have tried to make that claim would have been in the 1500's when the Islamic invaders took over Constantinople and drove the people there out, and they went to Europe and brought Greek translations of the Bible that the Catholic church had not corrupted through uncontrolled Latin translations that were in fact regional. But when the Greek manuscripts showed up they were restored to the original wording and translated into English by Tyndell and others.Even then there were no real doctrinal changes, just wordings and phrases that Latin has a hard time expressing but Greek and English do very well. Since then pretty much all new discoveries of the old manuscripts have done nothing but reinforce the fact that what we have now is what they wrote then. The dead Sea scolls had a copy of Isaih that was 1,000 years older than any thing else we had at the time, there was a mispelled name and that's about it.No your source that the Bible is not accurately written is false.

[Balloon guy 158]

As is often the case in religous debate we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point. We can agree that America is a great nation and the envy of many nations. You believe that the reason America is great is because the founders were primarily Christian and that those Christian values led the founders to create the great country that they did. I however believe that it was the founders ability to study the past and avoid mistakes made by others combined with their common sense and interpretation of justice and logic that allowed them to build the United States. These are certainly concepts found in Christianity but they are not concepts found exclusively in Christianity. I'm not trying to bash Christianity I'm simply saying that if the founders had all been atheists they would have been able to form the same great country using historical lessons and logic, I think you're giving Christianity too much credit.

I see your point but unfortunately we only have the examples we have, and Christiany was very prevelant in the foundation of this country. And pretty much every country that has a different religion, and especially no religion ie communist, have the exact opposite results.But I do agree that it is possible that a non Christian based country could turn out okay, it just hasn't happened yet.

[crowTrobot 2]

But you guys don't get that when it comes to the differences in religion, you guys are at best 3rd graders. I have a much better udnerstanding of mormonism than all of you

and all of "us guys" have a much better understanding of christianity than you do.

A religion that teaches racism is much worse in any and all value charts than one that teaches loving your neighbor.

yes it teaches you to love the homosexual even though he is a sinner and is going to hell. christianity breeds and perpetuates social boundaries the same way mormon racism does. much worse in fact due to scale.

If you guys can't step away from the "all religion is bad" mantra for a minute to look at whether a mormon is differnt than a Christian then you guys are the ones with blinders on, not us.

once again, nobody here said all religion is bad.

[crowTrobot 2]

Of course other factors exist. That being said, it's no coincidence that every atheist on this board throws a shit fit when it's alluded to that Christian values, and God, are all over this countries footprints from it's inception.

i don't see any atheists throwing a fit. we are pointing out that what you call the "christian values" this country was founded on and the human rights movements that have occured since, are actually derived from common sense trial and error over time, not from the bible. they are secular.our founding documents happen to contain mantras that mention god because most (but not all) of the founding fathers happened to be christian. that's trivial.our common sense *secular* values are what makes this country great, not christianity.

[crowTrobot 2]

But I do agree that it is possible that a non Christian based country could turn out okay, it just hasn't happened yet.

what about countries that reject their christian origins (most of western europe). do you see them losing their human rights values? if anything they are better than the US.

[Vick07 0]

Most of the founding fathers were deists, many (including probably Ben Franklin) were agnostic, few were probably Christian in our sense of the word

[Balloon guy 158]

and all of "us guys" have a much better understanding of christianity than you do.

I'd take that bet. and give you odds

[Loismustdie 0]

i don't see any atheists throwing a fit. we are pointing out that what you call the "christian values" this country was founded on and the human rights movements that have occured since, are actually derived from common sense trial and error over time, not from the bible. they are secular.our founding documents happen to contain mantras that mention god because most (but not all) of the founding fathers happened to be christian. that's trivial.our common sense *secular* values are what makes this country great, not christianity.

If they were atheists it wouldn't be trivial. It would be paramount. It would be lauded and shouted from the rooftops. So, trial and error but in both instances strong " christian " leadership is what won the battle. If the leaders were circus clowns I suspect circus clowns would be a highly respected public office. You would be in this very forum praising them. I personally don't care either way, I just think that it's comical how much you guys just love to trivialize anything that even gives any credence to christianity being responsible for anything good. Not all were christians- o.k. That's actually a point for me- turns out, non- christians and christians can co exist handsomely. Who would have thought? They can even do so and agreeably adopt Gods principles, even print money and documents and songs and declarations giving God the glory, and then all sign as one. God had nothing to do with it, though, you are right.

[speedz99 145]

Most of the founding fathers were deists, many (including probably Ben Franklin) were agnostic, few were probably Christian in our sense of the word

Shh. They don't want to know that.

I'd take that bet. and give you odds

I'd kill the bet...I don't know many specifics about christianity. I have, however, seen 'you guys' schooled by 'us guys' a few times on biblical verse...so I think it's a wash.

They can even do so and agreeably adopt Gods principles, even print money and documents and songs and declarations giving God the glory, and then all sign as one. God had nothing to do with it, though, you are right.

I'll give you this, the idea of God may have had something to do with it (or at least they pretended it did)...even though I still think that the vast majority of political improvements over the centuries has come despite religion as opposed to because of it.Another point about giving God the glory...athletes do it all the time after big games. Does that mean God had anything to do with their performances? So why does the fact that the founding fathers thanked God mean that he entered the equation at all until after it was all said and done?

[Balloon guy 158]

Shh. They don't want to know that.Another thread maybeI'd kill the bet...I don't know many specifics about christianity. I have, however, seen 'you guys' schooled by 'us guys' a few times on biblical verse...so I think it's a wash.See belowI'll give you this, the idea of God may have had something to do with it (or at least they pretended it did)...even though I still think that the vast majority of political improvements over the centuries has come despite religion as opposed to because of it.Another point about giving God the glory...athletes do it all the time after big games. Does that mean God had anything to do with their performances? So why does the fact that the founding fathers thanked God mean that he entered the equation at all until after it was all said and done?

This shows what I mean about not knowing Christianity. We give God the glory not because we are thanking Him for being so good at catching footballs, or thinking up laws. We give God the glory because He deserves it. The football player is ackoweding that God is the only one worthy of the admiration that the crowd is giving him, what He did for us makes any of our accomplishments as dirty rags. Read Orel Herschisers book, he explains it well.Think of the story of the widow's mite. Jesus stood outside the collection area and watched the big shots of the day make great show of giving large monetary gifts, and when it was nearly over, a widow snuck up and dropped in two pennies. Jesus said: "She has given more than all of these others."I'm sure you can give me examples of people that claim Christianity and don't live up to this, but the actions of the students do not negate the actual teachings.

[crowTrobot 2]

Most of the founding fathers were deists, many (including probably Ben Franklin) were agnostic, few were probably Christian in our sense of the word

some were deists. i don't think it's likely that most were in the strict sense since most came from organized religious backgrounds. certainly true that some of the most prominent including franklin and jefferson wrote a lot of anti-fundamentlist stuff, and may have been agnostic or even atheist.whatever they were, the very premise of the D of I was to create a country based on separation of church and state, not biblical "christian" values.

[crowTrobot 2]

If they were atheists it wouldn't be trivial. It would be paramount. It would be lauded and shouted from the rooftops.

i meant the fact that our founding fathers referenced god is trivial (unrelated) to your claim that christianity is what makes our nation great.

[crowTrobot 2]

I'd take that bet. and give you odds

i was raised christian, studied it all my life. don't short change me bro

[Balloon guy 158]

some were deists. i don't think it's likely that most were in the strict sense since most came from organized religious backgrounds. certainly true that some of the most prominent including franklin and jefferson wrote a lot of anti-fundamentlist stuff, and may have been agnostic or even atheist.whatever they were, the very premise of the D of I was to create a country based on separation of church and state, not biblical "christian" values.

This is a very flawed opinion of the purpose of the Declaration of Independance. The wording implied much more a desire to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.Hard to say they wanted all aspects of religion our of government service when they instituted prayer in the beginning of ALL government and judicial gatherings. And the person doing the praying was usually a paid government employee. Litle side note, but they still do this at the opening of congress and our President still places his hand on a Bible when sworn in.I think you are mixing up he communist manifesto with the D of I.