Jacks Are A Monster Compared To The Crap U Play

[Acid_Knight 2]

Let's hear what you're willing to tell us, then.

1. You seem to have the attitude way too often of "I"ve already made enough with this hand, time to end it," when the only thing you should be thinking is "How do I maximize this situation when I'm ahead and find out as cheaply as possible when I'm losing?"2. Raising to $75 or even less accomplishes every goal that raising to $100 does except for the times when he does have TT-88 and will pay more for his hand.3. We don't want him folding unpaired overs. If he has AK, AQ, or KQ, he will need to get 6-1 to see the next card. We don't need to raise to $100 to scare him off. We want him making this mistake.4. We shouldn't be in a rush to be calling (the donkey) or folding (the PFR) this hand regardless of the action that comes after our raise.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Just out of curioisity RT how is it going? It should be much tougher than the live games, but I've never heard of the site you are playing on. You experiencing same success as you have been live?Why did you put a roll online anyway? You can direct me to a thread/post if you've answered these questions already.

decent i guess. I find at 1/2 NL if i make 1 buy in i'm happy. standard raise preflop is like 6, with re-pops to 14 or 20. where as live, standard could be 12, with repops to 40 etc.. I dont live near a casino anymore, so I havent been able to get to a table. so I deposited 400 online a couple days ago to play some 100NL. Just trying to rack up extra cash (if i can) before i leave for australia Oct. 9th,sitting at 1033.00 as of today. and play 100NL multi table. or 200NL single table (until its a comfortable BR)Tiger Gaming was my 1st site ever playing on. Its part of action gaming network and i like it for a few reasons.A - I'm a cash game player. and their cash games are decent as far as quality of players. Only ever 1 or 2 tables per level going at a time tho. Very rare to see any game over 1/2NLB - Its not compatible with pokertracker, so my memory and note taking ability works great at that site.C - The majority of players are Canadian, some of which play in Canadian poker tour events, which are events i will be playing a lot of next summer.D - Its temporary, and I plan to switch eventually.

[tskillz187 0]

decent i guess. I find at 1/2 NL if i make 1 buy in i'm happy. standard raise preflop is like 6, with re-pops to 14 or 20. where as live, standard could be 12, with repops to 40 etc.. I dont live near a casino anymore, so I havent been able to get to a table. so I deposited 400 online a couple days ago to play some 100NL. Just trying to rack up extra cash (if i can) before i leave for australia Oct. 9th,sitting at 1033.00 as of today. and play 100NL multi table. or 200NL single table (until its a comfortable BR)Tiger Gaming was my 1st site ever playing on. Its part of action gaming network and i like it for a few reasons.A - I'm a cash game player. and their cash games are decent as far as quality of players. Only ever 1 or 2 tables per level going at a time tho. Very rare to see any game over 1/2NLB - Its not compatible with pokertracker, so my memory and note taking ability works great at that site.C - The majority of players are Canadian, some of which play in Canadian poker tour events, which are events i will be playing a lot of next summer.D - Its temporary, and I plan to switch eventually.

Cool. Was just wondering why you stopped once you hit your goal live! Good to see (IMO) that you didn't throw 10k online so that you can still play the live stuff.gl, etc.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1. You seem to have the attitude way too often of "I"ve already made enough with this hand, time to end it," when the only thing you should be thinking is "How do I maximize this situation when I'm ahead and find out as cheaply as possible when I'm losing?"2. Raising to $75 or even less accomplishes every goal that raising to $100 does except for the times when he does have TT-88 and will pay more for his hand.3. We don't want him folding unpaired overs. If he has AK, AQ, or KQ, he will need to get 6-1 to see the next card. We don't need to raise to $100 to scare him off. We want him making this mistake.4. We shouldn't be in a rush to be calling (the donkey) or folding (the PFR) this hand regardless of the action that comes after our raise.

1., 2. OK, I agree with the "..." — I stipulated that $75 does the same thing. 3. I'm not sure I agree, because of the number of times we have to fold jacks on the flop when we play them in raised pots. I like to take wins with them when I can. 4. I would because I have to trust RT's reads here. 50% of my live game is played by read.

[Jdr999 0]

I also like the flat call with jacks from the button. It's not a strong hand quite yet, but definitely flop worthy. And since you're in position on a late position raise, you're in a good spot to outplay him past preflop.

WHY?You have position on everyone.You have a strong hand.Other players will act before you after the flop.If I was in the blinds, I might pop-it against a LP raise, but a call then lead on safe flop would be fine with me.

[Acid_Knight 2]

3. I'm not sure I agree, because of the number of times we have to fold jacks on the flop when we play them in raised pots. I like to take wins with them when I can.

1. You seem to have the attitude way too often of "I"ve already made enough with this hand, time to end it," when the only thing you should be thinking is "How do I maximize this situation when I'm ahead and find out as cheaply as possible when I'm losing?"

[mtdesmoines 3]

Not denying any of this. But I still think we need to charge a stiff penalty for drawing to beat our JJ.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Not denying any of this. But I still think we need to charge a stiff penalty for drawing to beat our JJ.

The converse of that is that we give away a lot of money when we were already beaten or if they outdrew us on the flop. You only need to make a bet big enough to give 2 overcards improper pot odds since the most outs he will ever have here is 6, and as I already said, that means he'd need 6-1 to see the turn. When we're behind though, we rarely ever have more tahn 2 outs.

[mtdesmoines 3]

The converse of that is that we give away a lot of money when we were already beaten or if they outdrew us on the flop. You only need to make a bet big enough to give 2 overcards improper pot odds since the most outs he will ever have here is 6, and as I already said, that means he'd need 6-1 to see the turn. When we're behind though, we rarely ever have more tahn 2 outs.

Are we still arguing about $75 versus $100? .... I'm not.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Are we still arguing about $75 versus $100? .... I'm not.

I'm talking about your general approach of "we need to punish them to outdraw our JJ" and such. I understand that you say that the bet amount doesn't matter (75 vs 100)

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'm talking about your general approach of "we need to punish them to outdraw our JJ" and such. I understand that you say that the bet amount doesn't matter (75 vs 100)

JJ pf is a good hand. People don't like it, but I don't mind it. I don't lose a lot of money with them because I can lay them down in bad spots and because I can run them up on flops like this. Two weeks ago, I had JJ in a $1/2 live game .. this is how it went down: All stacks around $800+villain 1 EP: raised to 30me CO: re raised to 30villain 2 BB: callsvillain 1: callsflop: 2,4,8 rainbowvillain 2 in BB checksvillain 1 in EP bets 50I raise to $150BB reraises to $400foldfoldBB shows a set of 4s. I'm saying we need to bet hard to define our hand. We're calling the donkey anyway, but we can fold to the solid player's push. That's exactly the play I'm advocating here. I know we're not that deep, but if we're ahead, we might as well fill the pot/TID. If we're behind, we might as well get pushed out.

[petersun 0]

Do folks have opinions on the flat calling and re-evaluating on the turn?I understand the logic of reraising pre-flop and on the flop to define the hands, but does anyone think that flat calling on the flop with someone to act behind you would scare AA, KK, QQ and maybe even a weak 6? Could that buy you a free turn and potentially a cheap showdown about the same cost as your flop raise?In other words, if I had A6 suited, would I always reraise this fairly safe board on the flop against a bet from the initial raiser when there is donkey value behind me? Would not a call scare people more than a raise?

[mtdesmoines 3]

Do folks have opinions on the flat calling and re-evaluating on the turn?I understand the logic of reraising pre-flop and on the flop to define the hands, but does anyone think that flat calling on the flop with someone to act behind you would scare AA, KK, QQ and maybe even a weak 6? Could that buy you a free turn and potentially a cheap showdown about the same cost as your flop raise?In other words, if I had A6 suited, would I always reraise this fairly safe board on the flop against a bet from the initial raiser when there is donkey value behind me? Would not a call scare people more than a raise?

No, I hate flatcalling because we give the power and pricing to the villain and there's almost literally no card but a J that we want to see.

[ThreeBet 0]

Little late to the party here and not much to add other than I re pop to $35 pre flop (I'd be way more likely to just call from the blinds).Main thing I wanted to say is that, as usual, arguments can be made for different ways to play a specific hand (even the flat call to "scare them" has, in some cases, some merit, although too much of a gamble for me!) and those who made them, made them pretty good here, imo. Always interesting to hear opposite sides ... seems to be a rarity that we get polar opposite discussions like this one.

[Money022 0]

JJ pf is a good hand. People don't like it, but I don't mind it. I don't lose a lot of money with them because I can lay them down in bad spots and because I can run them up on flops like this. Two weeks ago, I had JJ in a $1/2 live game .. this is how it went down: All stacks around $800+villain 1 EP: raised to 30me CO: re raised to 30villain 2 BB: callsvillain 1: callsflop: 2,4,8 rainbowvillain 2 in BB checksvillain 1 in EP bets 50I raise to $150BB reraises to $400foldfoldBB shows a set of 4s. I'm saying we need to bet hard to define our hand. We're calling the donkey anyway, but we can fold to the solid player's push. That's exactly the play I'm advocating here. I know we're not that deep, but if we're ahead, we might as well fill the pot/TID. If we're behind, we might as well get pushed out.

So you spent $150 to find out where you were at, when a smaller raise would have done the same thing, only you would have kept in hands you beat. I might also add the villian played his hand horribly by raising so much that you were forced to fold, which is the way we'd expect you to play a set on this board based on your previous comments of charging someone so much to outdraw you. I think that was Acid_Knight's reasoning.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Oh my.. What an abortion of a thread this has become. I'll say this; if you're going to flat call with JJ on the button, than you're playing it purely for set value and need to get away from 66X boards rather quickly.

[petersun 0]

So the reason why I raise the issue of flat calling on the flop is that we've been drilled too much in the head to be aggressive, but what that agression gets you is big pots on the flop with a single pair. I think that in general, big pots with single pairs is something we want to avoid. I think the real issue in my opinion is the double barrel on the turn. If we believe that raiser will double barrel on the turn with air, then we have to raise to define. However, since he's out of position, he would be crazy to double barrel with air. He may check on the turn and that'll define his hand as well without investing the $75 dollars needed to reraise him. What you do by raising on the flop with one pair is create a pot that you'll give up to any resistance. Are jacks good enough to invest nearly $100 to find out if they're good? I'd rather invest the $35 and find out more on the turn.To be honest, if you find that he'll double barrel all the time with air, it's probably better to simply fold the hand and wait for a good situation for him to bluff his money away.I do agree however, that there are a number of scare cards for the turn. But I don't mind seeing a turn in this case before I make my decision (especially in position).From watching all the high stakes cash games on TV, I see small ball players like Daniel calling on the flop with a questionable holding all the time, and this seems like one of them. Naturally, we're not Daniel and he's got reads on most of the people.I just have serious issues investing 1/4 of my stack to find out if my one pair is good. At these levels, players may flat call or push my reraise with 88, 99, TT as well as QQ, KK, AA.

[petersun 0]

Oh my.. What an abortion of a thread this has become. I'll say this; if you're going to flat call with JJ on the button, than you're playing it purely for set value and need to get away from 66X boards rather quickly.

I think most agree that the reraise before the flop was the right move =) But I was trying to generate discussion rather than the standard answers that we always get.

[CBass1724 1]

Fold preflop.