Wsope - Day 3 Starts At 2pm London Time

[Gene zzz 0]

Ok, here it is, y'all are just completely freakin' wrong and it ain't even close! I'll kill two birds with one stone:Hand 1 vs PA: I made it 5000 and he re-raised to 18k from the SB. I had to call13 more in position. Nothing wrong with that.Hand 2 vs Maniac: When I make it 50k I've already completely commited myself against this guy. Why? Because moving all in or making it 50k is essentially the same thing against this guy because if he decides to play he's moving in. That's how he played... the whole time. Essentially making it 50k is slightly better because if he has air he may be foolish enough to move in with AK, or even 77 or some hand like that. You all assume that I "have to" be up against a better pair or a flush draw, when the truth is, 9 times out of 10 (better actually) when I make it 50k the pot is over. Now, knowing this guy's range, how in the world could I justify folding for another 57k when the pot is laying me a huge price and I think I have the best hand? What you guys are questioning is totally illogical, seriously. My only other option on the hand was to check call on the flop, but with so much money out there and me essentially on a short stack against the table, I wanted to protect what I felt was the best hand based on his bet size and tendencies. Trust me, I've thought about the hand long and hard. I had the best of it going in, but I rated to be in MUCH better shape when I put my 50k in and was unlucky that I was only a small favorite. What do you think he'd do with Ah 4h on that flop? He'd still bet that flop. The key thing about this guy, no joke, is that I had even extra equity because he may make the re-raise with any draw as well as hands I have CRUSHED like AK, 88, or 9-10. Not for a second will I second guess that play, no freakin' way. If you still disagree with my assesment you are just going to have to trust me on this one... it's not even close in any way, shape, or form.

who was it ? The player named Pat with the ball cap? He was the only one making all ins later when I started watching; I think everyone else on that table is still in; No doubt DN has to contend with those other big guns and just play correct against the rest; well to bad he would have made it very interesting no one can make a table worth watching like him also a young women might win!

[NonZeroPossibility 0]

GG Daniel. Don't know how anyone could question your play, how many bracelets does the rest of this board have combined? I know your pain on the AQ<KQ. I busted out of a ME satellite one time on the same exact hand where I would have been chip leader if I win the hand and the K hits the river. That is like getting kicked in the nuts. Probably worse actually....

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Uhm cause he was a total maniac AND had already 3bet with a flush draw. The guy has a wide range obviously.These days at this level, IF you're not willing to make the call Daniel did you'll never ever have a chance of winning a tournament.

How silly is that. "If you're not willing to put it in with 2P2K on a 2 flush/straight board board, you'll never win a tournament" Hi, he's better than them..clearly..why chance it? Why leave it up to a coinflip when you can outplay the field?

GG Daniel. Don't know how anyone could question your play, how many bracelets does the rest of this board have combined?

On second thought, nevermind. I don't have a bracelet, my mistake.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

My only other option on the hand was to check call on the flop, but with so much money out there and me essentially on a short stack against the table, I wanted to protect what I felt was the best hand based on his bet size and tendencies.

I would just like to reiterrate that yes, you did get it in good, yes, he was a silly aggro, but, no, I don't think it is absolutely necessary to get it all in here, as you do. I still think 35k has the same effect as 50k, but allows you to fold if you happen to be wrong. Answer me this, please..Why is it so bad to fold a marginal hand, in a marginal spot when you are that much better than the field?

[DCJ001 0]

I would just like to reiterrate that yes, you did get it in good, yes, he was a silly aggro, but, no, I don't think it is absolutely necessary to get it all in here, as you do. I still think 35k has the same effect as 50k, but allows you to fold if you happen to be wrong. Answer me this, please..Why is it so bad to fold a marginal hand, in a marginal spot when you are that much better than the field?

Ok, here it is, y'all are just completely freakin' wrong AINEC !

[nutzbuster 7]

One of the best payers in the game had a hand, made a read, and the man played his hand. It didn't work out. Thats it. End of story. On to the next one.Good luck!

[WhatArunAA 0]

Ok, here it is, y'all are just completely freakin' wrong and it ain't even close! I'll kill two birds with one stone:Hand 1 vs PA: I made it 5000 and he re-raised to 18k from the SB. I had to call13 more in position. Nothing wrong with that.Hand 2 vs Maniac: When I make it 50k I've already completely commited myself against this guy. Why? Because moving all in or making it 50k is essentially the same thing against this guy because if he decides to play he's moving in. That's how he played... the whole time. Essentially making it 50k is slightly better because if he has air he may be foolish enough to move in with AK, or even 77 or some hand like that. You all assume that I "have to" be up against a better pair or a flush draw, when the truth is, 9 times out of 10 (better actually) when I make it 50k the pot is over. Now, knowing this guy's range, how in the world could I justify folding for another 57k when the pot is laying me a huge price and I think I have the best hand? What you guys are questioning is totally illogical, seriously. My only other option on the hand was to check call on the flop, but with so much money out there and me essentially on a short stack against the table, I wanted to protect what I felt was the best hand based on his bet size and tendencies. Trust me, I've thought about the hand long and hard. I had the best of it going in, but I rated to be in MUCH better shape when I put my 50k in and was unlucky that I was only a small favorite. What do you think he'd do with Ah 4h on that flop? He'd still bet that flop. The key thing about this guy, no joke, is that I had even extra equity because he may make the re-raise with any draw as well as hands I have CRUSHED like AK, 88, or 9-10. Not for a second will I second guess that play, no freakin' way. If you still disagree with my assesment you are just going to have to trust me on this one... it's not even close in any way, shape, or form.

Daniel... no offense bro and you know I love you.. but you have 100k friggen behind.. there is no way calling 18k MORE is profitable if you have 100k behind.. I consider PA to be one of the best all around players in the world and I think if you are calling 20 percent of your stack off preflop against one of the best that is straight spew.. obv if you both have 2 million behind I wouldnt even be questioning your play... notice how I said the original raise was fine....but calling off 20 percent of your stack against a top player with no implied odds CANT be profitable with 5-3o.. at best you can hope he has AK.. and even then you cant expect to outplay him post flop because you arent deep enough.

[WhatArunAA 0]

One of the best payers in the game had a hand, made a read, and the man played his hand. It didn't work out. Thats it. End of story. On to the next one.Good luck!

No offense Nuts.. and I respect you as a person.. but as a serious student of the game I question plays because I want to learn more and more.. im a sponge.. if you don't question plays and just accept them as "well he played perfect, nothing he coukd have done" then you will never improve as a player.. I highly respect Daniels game and that is why im so critical of it.. im trying to constantly improve as a player.. but when you simply chalk it up to " well hes the best and thats why he did " then you never learn about this ever evolving game.

[no not baxter 0]

No offense Nuts.. and I respect you as a person.. but as a serious student of the game I question plays because I want to learn more and more.. im a sponge.. if you don't question plays and just accept them as "well he played perfect, nothing he coukd have done" then you will never improve as a player.. I highly respect Daniels game and that is why im so critical of it.. im trying to constantly improve as a player.. but when you simply chalk it up to " well hes the best and thats why he did " then you never learn about this ever evolving game.

seems like spew to me...

[Volume26 0]

Daniel... no offense bro and you know I love you.. but you have 100k friggen behind.. there is no way calling 18k MORE is profitable if you have 100k behind.. I consider PA to be one of the best all around players in the world and I think if you are calling 20 percent of your stack off preflop against one of the best that is straight spew.. obv if you both have 2 million behind I wouldnt even be questioning your play... notice how I said the original raise was fine....but calling off 20 percent of your stack against a top player with no implied odds CANT be profitable with 5-3o.. at best you can hope he has AK.. and even then you cant expect to outplay him post flop because you arent deep enough.

Patrik can have a wide range of hands there also.

[kakon2 0]

he said 13k more not 18 but i agree, its still bad imo. k9 is fine i think, DrawingDead i dont think anyone can be so much better then the field that he will start passing good situations. only in the start when blinds are very small but not now, you cant just flop sets all the time and "outplay" them, if youre better its because you can make better marginel descision, and he doesnt want to raise to 35 and then fold because the other guy is a maniac and will push alot, and if he folds then hes just letting the maniac outplay him.

[tobyha 0]

i watched it on the stream...was really pissed how that guy played... no mistake by daniel, he did everything right...that guy should play hello kitty island adventure, but no pokeri hope u play the ept-event in dortmund - many negreanu-fans here in germany !!!

[matdiddy22 0]

I would just like to reiterrate that yes, you did get it in good, yes, he was a silly aggro, but, no, I don't think it is absolutely necessary to get it all in here, as you do. I still think 35k has the same effect as 50k, but allows you to fold if you happen to be wrong. Answer me this, please..Why is it so bad to fold a marginal hand, in a marginal spot when you are that much better than the field?

Daniel essentially said what I said already. He had the read and was unfortunate that the guy had as good as a chance as he did. As hands like 109 98 are more than likely as is 88 77 or ak. It makes no difference DrawingDead if he makes it 35k or 50k because he had the read on the hand and wasnt folding. 35k may give him the option of folding, but he didn't want to fold. He knew/thought he had the best hand against a maniac and wanted the money in.I agree with you and would have given myself the opportunity to fold. And I probably would have folded to a raise. Again, DN had the read and didn't want to fold. He wanted to get his chips in as a favorite and it is very possible he could have been dominating his opponent. It is just unfortunate he had as good a hand as he did.And to whoever said something about the bracelets, just because we don't have bracelets doesn't mean we are entitled to ask questions or criticize/comment on someone who does have a bracelet. Obviously DN is a world class player, but even world class players make mistakes or questionable plays. I do not think this is one of those times, but some people do and the reason this forum is such a huge success is because DN and his comments within the forum. Questioning him, while most likely annoying as shit to him, can only help us understand higher levels of thinking and enhance the forum.

[hockey fan 0]

k9 is fine i think, DrawingDead i dont think anyone can be so much better then the field that he will start passing good situations. only in the start when blinds are very small but not now, you cant just flop sets all the time and "outplay" them, if youre better its because you can make better marginel descision, and he doesnt want to raise to 35 and then fold because the other guy is a maniac and will push alot, and if he folds then hes just letting the maniac outplay him.

QFTI'm not sure how you guys can say, "wait for a better spot" - these guys were pushing the table around with their betting. If Daniel had any chance to win he had to gamble on some thin edges sometimes, just to keep them honest. If not, he would have been blinded out to begin with! Remember? - He started at $31K! And certainly here he was better off against this guy than, say Antonius. I know I play pretty nitty and I think this often is my biggest hole. Not being able to take a big chance on a marginal edge against another big stack on a key hand. I'm talking online, as I'm not a live player (yet) so I figure Daniel is in much better shape than I would be, since his reads would be vastly more accurate than mine.I think Nutz has it right. He had a read and he went with it, and he just got out-flopped. End of story. I think the other guy was nuts risking his stack on a flush draw when clearly Daniel was ready to gamble it up.I'm still enjoying the discussion though, some interesting thoughts on how to play the same hand different ways.

[rawkodd 0]

i hope they scratch any ideas to televise any of this tourny... this is the most boring poker i've ever seen AINEC

[silkyjonson 1]

i hope they scratch any ideas to televise any of this tourny... this is the most boring poker i've ever seen AINEC

You realize its a little different when its in real time, compared to a finished for tv product.

[matdiddy22 0]

You realize its a little different when its in real time, compared to a finished for tv product.

You know he doesn't.

[rawkodd 0]

You realize its a little different when its in real time, compared to a finished for tv product.

you realize the players are saying nothingat allever.ya it's gonna be reaallly interesting to watch...maybe they can edit in some personality...

[WhatArunAA 0]

Patrik can have a wide range of hands there also.

ok.. if we assign PA even these widest of ranges.. calling with 5-3 CANT be profitable.. it just can't be... the implied odds are simply not there.

[Gene zzz 0]

QFTI'm not sure how you guys can say, "wait for a better spot" - these guys were pushing the table around with their betting. If Daniel had any chance to win he had to gamble on some thin edges sometimes, just to keep them honest. If not, he would have been blinded out to begin with! Remember? - He started at $31K! And certainly here he was better off against this guy than, say Antonius. I know I play pretty nitty and I think this often is my biggest hole. Not being able to take a big chance on a marginal edge against another big stack on a key hand. I'm talking online, as I'm not a live player (yet) so I figure Daniel is in much better shape than I would be, since his reads would be vastly more accurate than mine.I think Nutz has it right. He had a read and he went with it, and he just got out-flopped. End of story. I think the other guy was nuts risking his stack on a flush draw when clearly Daniel was ready to gamble it up.I'm still enjoying the discussion though, some interesting thoughts on how to play the same hand different ways.

Why simplfy his plays to kindergarten reads? I hope there is more to his play then going with it. There is no end of story in the best poker being shallow only puts us off. No Daniel had just had to have much more on his mine then a weak read on a player that came up with more then average. by saying (end of story )you are reinforcing those opposed to his play here.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

No offense Nuts.. and I respect you as a person.. but as a serious student of the game I question plays because I want to learn more and more.. im a sponge.. if you don't question plays and just accept them as "well he played perfect, nothing he coukd have done" then you will never improve as a player.. I highly respect Daniels game and that is why im so critical of it.. im trying to constantly improve as a player.. but when you simply chalk it up to " well hes the best and thats why he did " then you never learn about this ever evolving game.

Instead of responding one-by-one, I'll just say that I agree with this whole heartedly. Daniel once said that his approach to tournament poker--small ball--meant that sometimes you'd let people chase/catch up to you, but, by proxy you win more, as they only hit their flush/straight one out of three or four times(depending on the situation). The hand in question seems to fly into the face of all of that, which is why I'm so perplexed as to how this could be the best play, based on Daniel's long term strategy in deepstack tournament poker. His decision obv wasn't a snap call or he wouldn't have taken so much time to make the call. I don't claim to be a tournament expert. In fact, my greatest tournament moment came in taking down a 1 dollar rebuy on FT half drunk. I do, however consider myself to be a good, thinking poker player, and therein comes my questionining. I obv respect Daniel's game very much, but, I don't think bracelets or playing 'championship poker' mean that you occasionally don't play a hand optimally.

[nutzbuster 7]

No offense Nuts.. and I respect you as a person.. but as a serious student of the game I question plays because I want to learn more and more.. im a sponge.. if you don't question plays and just accept them as "well he played perfect, nothing he coukd have done" then you will never improve as a player.. I highly respect Daniels game and that is why im so critical of it.. im trying to constantly improve as a player.. but when you simply chalk it up to " well hes the best and thats why he did " then you never learn about this ever evolving game.

Why simplfy his plays to kindergarten reads? I hope there is more to his play then going with it. There is no end of story in the best poker being shallow only puts us off. No Daniel had just had to have much more on his mine then a weak read on a player that came up with more then average. by saying (end of story )you are reinforcing those opposed to his play here.

First of all, this discussion is +EV for sure. And Daniels input is a HUGE bonus. Few pros out there have the wherewithal or willingness to share their mindset of a hand, especially right after a painful bust out of a major tournament. And I never meant to imply this was kindergarten simple either. It was exactly the opposite of that. I don't think I would have made that play either, but what the hell do I know about the hand? NOTHING. I wasn't there. And neither was anyone else. And THAT is the point really.My "overly simplistic" comment was more to say that ya gotta respect Daniels (or anyones) decision to make what they feel is the best play at any given time in a tourney. Only they know what the heck is up. SOOOO many variables and hours of input make up an ultimate decision about a play. It's just too easy to say he simply was wrong. He had what he felt at the time were very good reasons to make that play. And I didn't mean to suggest that both sides not express their opinions. Discussing is fine but it's a little unfair for anyone who is leaning towards critical. Daniel made his play, got crushed, and that was it really. What's amazing is that he then came here to explain why. Gotta respect that whether you agree or not. Better luck next time DN.

[Gene zzz 0]

It is showing that that young internet star is at least 2nd ! She sure has been a-fire. And true DN does us all very well he is up on the wave as they say; Gus Hansen was playing so redicules he does nothing to keep himself in the thing and busts out at his on word! DN may be playing around but Hansen he truly was messin with thier minds.

[Gene zzz 0]

It is showing that that young internet star is at least 2nd ! She sure has been a-fire. And true DN does us all very well he is up on the wave as they say; Gus Hansen was playing so redicules he does nothing to keep himself in the thing and busts out at his on word! DN may be playing around but Hansen he truly was messin with thier minds.

I Just read she did win WOW what a thrill look out world.

[KramitDaToad 0]

ok.. if we assign PA even these widest of ranges.. calling with 5-3 CANT be profitable.. it just can't be... the implied odds are simply not there.

It was to call 13k getting 2-1, in position. PA has announced he has a strong hand by repopping out of the SB and DN knows that if he hits his hand hard the board will likely be low cards. In this case PA will almost always make a CB, likely in excess of 20k (the pot would be close to 40k before the flop). Fairly standard call.