canadain players tax - update with ccr info

[quixotic 0]

I have secured an interview with the best tax expert in Canada. I am writing an article on taxation and poker as there seems to be a lot of skewed ideas on the subject. I have a list of questions I am asking but I wanted to post on the forum to see if any of you might have questions that I hadnt thought of.What really got me thinking to do this was finding out that the Australian goverment deemed that because Hatcham was not a pro at the time he won the WSOP his take down is not taxable.Anyways looking forward to seeing what any of you think.

[ColeSLaw 0]

For it to be taxable, it would have to be income from business OR office or employment. The professional gambler should be paying taxes on his winning, while the recreational player is not obliged to. Obviously, it is difficult for the CCRA to prove you are a professional. And who do you think is the leading tax (law I assume) expert?

[quixotic 0]

For it to be taxable, it would have to be income from business OR  office or employment. The professional gambler should be paying taxes on his winning, while the recreational player is not obliged to. Obviously, it is difficult for the CCRA to prove you are a professional.  And who do you think is the leading tax (law I assume) expert?

I am not going to give his name until the article is published because I dont think it is right. I am a financial planner and am well aware of who knows their ass from a whole in the ground and who doesnt where taxation is concerned so rest assured he is one of the most respected in the country and writes for national papers on a weekly basis.Indeed it is difficult for the CCRA to deem if you are a pro or not that is what I mainly plan to shead some light on.

[pokerdan97 0]

I just talked to a tax accountant about this subject. I'm am starting day trading and just beginning in it and this will be my 'job' before anything else including poker. For me, poker winnings are 100% mine. The 1 thing I didn't ask him, but will next time I see him, will be about taxes if you are a professional poker player. Anyone know anything about this FOR SURE. I mean actually talking to someone who knows what their talking about and not overhearing it posted on an internet forum

[quixotic 0]

I just talked to a tax accountant about this subject. I'm am starting day trading and just beginning in it and this will be my 'job' before anything else including poker. For me, poker winnings are 100% mine. The 1 thing I didn't ask him, but will next time I see him, will be about taxes if you are a professional poker player. Anyone know anything about this FOR SURE. I mean actually talking to someone who knows what their talking about and not overhearing it posted on an internet forum

This is what I am going to get answers on I will post the article once it is published. I am far from a tax expert so I can not tell you anything that you havent already read. What I assume is that a pro would treat it like any other business. You claim your income and write off your related expenses.

[quixotic 0]

bump

[ColeSLaw 0]

I wouldn't call myself an expert but I have completed courses on Income Tax Law at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law. What I have said is true, a pro should be paying taxes and can write off business expenses, a recreational player does not need to. I can cite sections of the Income Tax Act if you would like.

[grocery_mony 8]

thanks for asking for others questions.mine would be"if i win say 100k in vegas and they take the 30%withholding tax as a canadian is there anyways to get any of that back"ty

[pokerdan97 0]

I wonder exactly what percentage you would be paying though. If it would be more or less than a regular job. Or the same maybe?

[mb5322 0]

Can someone tell me what a Canadain is.

[ColeSLaw 0]

As you know, the States unlike Canada taxes recreational gaming and lottery winnings. American winners should claim winning under a Form W-2G. The withholding rate of 30% matches the rate at which nonresidents are taxed in the US. For a citizen of another country to be exempt, a treaty between the two countries has to be in place. There is such a treaty between the US and Canada, the Canada-U.S. Income Tax Convention, but it offers a mixed bag when it comes to gambling.Here is the CCRA's perspective:"As a non-resident alien, you are subject to tax on gross U.S. gambling or lottery winnings at the rate of 30% at the time of winning. However, winnings from blackjack, baccarat, craps, roulette, and Big-6 wheel are exempt from tax.If you received tax-exempt winnings, or if the correct tax was collected at the time of winning, you do not have to file a U.S. tax return if this is your only U.S. income.Under the Canada-U.S. Income Tax Convention, you can claim your U.S. gambling losses up to the amount of your U.S. gambling winnings for the year using the same rules that apply to U.S. citizens and residents. To claim a refund of taxes withheld from gambling winnings, you must file Form 1040NR, U.S. Nonresident Alien Income Tax Return.Since proceeds from blackjack, baccarat, craps, roulette, and Big-6 wheel are exempt from tax, you cannot claim any wagering losses you incur from these games. Be sure to keep an accurate record of your U.S. gambling losses and winnings."More information available at:http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/p151/p15...html#P230_20805

[ColeSLaw 0]

I wonder exactly what percentage you would be paying though. If it would be more or less than a regular job. Or the same maybe?

The same.

[ColeSLaw 0]

Can someone tell me what a Canadain is.

I choose to ignore spelling and grammatical errors on this thread and the site in general as I can understand the meaning the poster is trying to convey. I'm sure you can too. Besides, everyone makes mistakes, like not putting a question mark at the end of a question. Let he who is without sin....Best of luck to the op on his/her article.

[mb5322 0]

Can someone tell me what a Canadain is.

I choose to ignore spelling and grammatical errors on this thread and the site in general as I can understand the meaning the poster is trying to convey. I'm sure you can too. Besides, everyone makes mistakes, like not putting a question mark at the end of a question. Let he who is without sin....Best of luck to the op on his/her article.

DIFerence is smartass I did it on purpose?

[ColeSLaw 0]

Oh, I didn't realize your mistakes were clever ploys to demonstrate your dominance of these boards. I'll steer clear of your traps in the future. By the way, I was going to use your rakeback service, but your superb customer relation skills have persuaded me otherwise.Further, if you truly believe that Scarface quote, perhaps you will choose your words more carefully. You wouldn't want to have to rely solely on your balls.(Finally, any spelling mistakes in the above post is merely a ruse to invite comment.)

[quixotic 0]

Well the interview went really well, I should have everything writen and polished up by the end of next week. The gentleman I interviewed is wicked smart and provided very sound information.Unfortunatly for poker players the 4 main criteria used to determine if gambling is for recreation or is business income are.- Organization- frequency- skill set- intention

[LoneSibling 0]

Well the interview went really well, I should have everything writen and polished up by the end of next week. The gentleman I interviewed is wicked smart and provided very sound information.Unfortunatly for poker players the 4 main criteria used to determine if gambling is for recreation or is business income are.- Organization- frequency- skill set- intention

Hi Quixotic,Where is this article going to be published, and/or how can I get a copy of it from you?? Tax laws confuse and worry me! Seems like there are always conflicting opinions, exceptions, or situations that aren't mentioned...and that's just with self-employment! :wall: Anyway, awesome that you are doing this!Take Care,R.

[quixotic 0]

Um well it is going to be in a national magazine March 1st. I will post it on FCP as well. My source for the tax info has plans on doing a similar article for the Globe and Mail after mine comes out. I dont want to say the name of the Mag until it comes out, crap happens in the publishing biz and I dont want to say much until it is in print.

[quixotic 0]

In writing this article I came across this.10. Profits derived from bookmaking or from the operation of any gambling establishment (carried on legally or otherwise) constitute income from a business. In addition, an individual may be subject to tax on income derived from gambling itself, if the gambling activities constitute carrying on the business of gambling; see the decision of MNR v. Morden, (1961) CTC 484, 61 DTC 1266 (Ex. Ct.). The issue of whether or not an individual's activities are such that he or she can be considered to be carrying on a gambling business is a question of fact that can be determined only by an examination of all of the circumstances and the taxpayer's entire course of conduct. Although no one factor may be conclusive, the following criteria should be considered in making the determination:(a) the degree of organization that is present in the pursuit of this activity by the taxpayer,(B) the existence of special knowledge or inside information that enables the taxpayer to reduce the element of chance,© the taxpayer's intention to gamble for pleasure as compared with any intention to gamble for profit as a means of gaining a livelihood, and(d) the extent of the taxpayer's gambling activities, including the number and frequency of bets.It is clear from various decisions of the courts that earnings from illegal operations or illicit businesses, such as illegal gambling and fraudulent business schemes, are not exempt from tax. (See for example, the decisions in The Queen v. Poynton, (1972) CTC 411, 72 DTC 6329 (Ont. C.A.) and MNR v. Eldridge, (1964) CTC 545, 64 DTC 5338 (Ex. Ct.).) HobbiesFrom CCR website.Here is my take on these sections...Part A - pokertracker and other software Part B - studing various books Harrington etc.Part C - is a gray areaPart D - online players cringe on this one....Frequency of bets WOW!

[Smiddywap 0]

I understand this thread has been updated with CCR info. I would like to know: have you ever seen the rain?Interesting stuff, I look forward to the article.