Preflop Raising At Loose Cheap Tables

[Zach6668 513]

I don't think I could convince the wife to let me put aside several hundred dollars for my friday night poker bankroll...

I think this is the first leak that we need to fix...... and I don't mean break up with your wife, or whatever, and I'm by no means a relationship consultant or qualified to do anything in this world... but like, I dunno... grow a pair? Again, I'm not saying you need to be the dominant one, or wear the pants, or whatever, but several hundred dollars is not a lot of money, it shouldn't be something that can strain a relationship, especially when there's an expectation that it can be replenished internally.

[jmbreslin 0]

LOL, it's not exactly a strain on the relationship. But we are a young family on a monthly budget and can't afford to throw around money. And since we're a two-income family I can't pull the "I'm the one bringing home the bacon" line, even if I wanted to.

[antistuff 0]

LOL, it's not exactly a strain on the relationship. But we are a young family on a monthly budget and can't afford to throw around money. And since we're a two-income family I can't pull the "I'm the one bringing home the bacon" line, even if I wanted to.

if you play and win at even micro limit poker you guys could take a pretty nice vacation every year on just that. or put it in a cd every six months and put it towards a house in a few years. even at .25/.50, it adds up much quicker than most people think (and i think you play higher than that). it sounds like your friends are playing nl$100. if you play with them every friday for five hours you will average at least your utility bills each month, if not more. some of these angles might help.i am sort of having the same problems with my girlfriend. not quite a wife, but its not far fetched to say we are engaged without the ring. i quit my job which i was doing very well at and have been playing poker for the past four or five months (time flies when you're this free lol). while i am trying to start a business right now, and if that happens i will do very well, its hard to explain to somebody that you are not a degenerate gambling bum. and its even harder when they see a thousand dollars of their future sitting at a table in AC and you are tossing chips in the pot like you couldn't care less about them (she was sitting behind me in a 2/5 game and was very, very disturbed). the part that pisses me off is that its wonderful when i win a bunch, but horrible when i lose. you won $800!! wow danny, thats a lot of money thats great what are you going to do with it? you lost $500, what they hell were you thinking, you could have bought blah blah blah with that. but, i digress...my attitude has pretty much been well this is who i am and its what i do and its one of the things that i really love doing so its not going to change. i wouldn't expect this to work for most people who aren't me (whose others feel as adamantly about it as she does).but in all fairness, if you guys are buying in for $100 and the game is at all aggressive, don't expect to win much if at all unless you are comfortable dropping $400 in a night. poker can be a social activity too, it doesn't have to be just a making money thing. its fine to play like that if you play with the understanding that thats what you are doing. ranty and maybe not all that relevant to you. i guess i also just felt like bitching about that a little.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Civilians seem largely incapable of understanding the whole "it's operating capital, the swings are meaningless, my winrate is X" thing. I prefer it that way; if my poker play comes up, I like to play up my degeneracy, now.

[Zach6668 513]

I just think that you'll never be a good winning poker player if you can't get over the fact that money is just the way we keep score.Like 3/4 of the posts you make seem to be about being scared of variance, or scared of losing the rent money, or not being able to convince your wife to use a tiny sum of money to invest in your game.You need to seperate life money and poker money, and understand exactly what Dutch was saying. Poker money is working capital, and like any business, it costs money to make money.

[jmbreslin 0]

Zach, people on this forum also have to appreciate that not everyone who plays poker is a pro or semi-pro, relying on the game for a full or supplemental income. I'm at a very different stage in my life from 98% of FCPers. I'm not a young, unattached college kid (or just out of college) and I'm also not a well-established middle-aged man (or retiree). I'm in my early 30's, with a full time public service job, a wife and two young children, and a boat load of personal and financial responsibility. Poker is a hobby for me. I play because I enjoy the strategic aspect of poker and the challenge of getting better, as well as the potential to make some money. I play micro stakes online a couple of hours in the evenings, and I like to get out and play a live game with some buddies now and then. For the time being that's it. I'm not interested in laying down the law with my wife or withdrawing $1000 to open up a separate poker account to fund my friday night games.antistuff (Danny?), your post was actually very relevant.

[Zach6668 513]

That's fine. And I'm telling you that in order to get better (the challenge, as you put it), you need to seperate poker from real life. Worrying about money while playing poker is a leak. Plain and simple. I don't care if you're a pro, or a play money player. There's a reason why a lot of people, when they initially turn pro, myself included, go on a decent sized downswing. It's not coincidence. All of a sudden, you start worrying about making money, and it clouds your judgment.And with respect to your family life, I'm sorry I touched on it, what you do is your own decision. However, issues like that, relating to money, are leaks when sitting at the poker table. It's up to you if or how you want to deal with it.

[Gargoyle97 0]

OP,You need to listen to these guys. Their advice is spot on.Maybe you should just consider the live games as entertainment expense and leave it in your household budget. If you aren't accounting for that expense as part of your night out you are doing yourself an injustice. It doesn't have anything to do with your skill level--one buyin isn't enough to realize your EV even if you can crush the game. So call it what is (entertainment) and correctly account for the cost. Don't assume the gambling money will come out even in the end (win some/lose some, etc) so you can ignore that money in the cost for the night out.Work on your poker game with the micro stakes on-line using a separate bankroll.

[jmbreslin 0]

Maybe you should just consider the live games as entertainment expense and leave it in your household budget.

That's not a bad idea, actually. That way I can keep control over it and not feel that I'm overspending the budget when I lose. And if there isn't any room in the budget, I don't play that month.

[Zach6668 513]

That is a good alternative approach, as well, imho.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Here's an idea....a couple nights a month, during poker night, tell your wife you're going to play poker with your buddies. Take the money that you would have allotted to lose, stuff it in your pocket, and go to an all night diner and drink coffee and read poker books instead. Come home, tell your wife you lost. Repeat a couple times. Save the money, then go buy a pre paid debit card. Buy in like 200 bucks online, and start grinding, and stop going to the weekly poker night untill you have like 2000 or something in your online account. Tell your wife you won a free roll online, and that's how you got the money to play online. I know it may seem like it's deceitful to lie to your wife or what ever, but I promise you, you'll be better off in the long run. If you're playing in a game, no matter how high or low of stakes, that you can't afford to play in, and that losing effects you.. you'll just never beat the game. You'll always be extremely uncomfortable, you'll be thinking about what you're losing, instead of thinking about what you should be doing.. IE making good decisions. You will never be able to beat your friends game when you are worried about the money. Trust me. I know this from painful experience. Also, just because it's a friendly, social game, doesn't mean you can't make money at it too. Some of my best time I have, I am playing poker, laughing, joking, w/e. But I take it serious. I always try to win. The sooner you stop seeing your buddies poker night just a social event but instead as an opportunity to build your bankroll and get better at poker, the better off you'll be. Also, take detailed, accurate, volumous notes about your sessions. Always record how much you've won or lost. That's the only way you can be honest with yourself in what kind of player you are, on what games and limits and things you need to work on. Final advise... I know this has been said before, but it merits repeated.. if you like limit because you are "risk adverse", you should probably go ahead and quit poker. Because I don't think any game has as brutal of swings as LHE. In a decent full ring NLH game, you can play tight as a nit, pre and post flop, have very little variance, and do really well. A good LHE game, you need to be able to absorb 40-50 big bet swings without blinking. Again, I think it just comes down with you being risk adverse, because you really can't afford to play in the live cash games you play in. Trust me, when your bankroll is 2K, you won't think twice about dropping a couple hundred in a night in a good game.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Also, to address the Original post.. why you raise in loose limit games.... Alot of players get this idea that part of raising is some sort of misguided attempt to protect your hand. And yes, sometimes you do raise or re raise in an attempt to get people to fold. But the reason you raise in loose games is to 1) push marginal edges 2) give the illusion to the players that you are an action player and make big mistakes against you on later streets 3) because you want to buy the button and the action post flop ( IE many limit players will check to the raiser, so if you're on the button you can take many free cards). Yes, it's true, if you only raise on aces kings queens and AKs, you're going to broadcast what kind of hand you have to everyone who's paying attention at the table ( if anyone is.) But if you're only raising with those hands, you're making a big mistake. IF you're in the CO or the button, pretty much any hand you limp with is worth raising in an game with 6+ people entering the pot. Getting the free turn card is worth that, plus you'll be playing tight enough that your range of limping hand will compare favorably to the field's. You also have to consider what are good hands in a game like this. In a game where 8 people take a flop, you often have to make a hand that can beat top pair, particularly if people play loose post flop. So big, unpaired unsuited cards that can make a good one pair hand go down in value, like KJoff or A10off, but suited connectors, suited Ax and any pair go way up in vaule.. because the large bulk of your profit in a game like that will be making a better than top pair hand and making people who overplay their one pair hands to pay the maxim. So, as a nut shell, be extremely tight with your raising standards in early position, as you don't want to force people out of the pot when you have something like 55 or JTsuited. But if you're on the button, raise those same hands, and feel free to cold call with them, if 6+ people are commonly calling 2 or more bets preflop. I don't think the gap theory, as such, applies very well to small stake hold em at all.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Here's another way of looking at protecting that people often fail to see: betting for value and betting for protection are the exact same thing. If your called protection bet doesn't have +EV, it's a bluff. If no one folds to you ever, and you jam with AK against 4 random hands, and your protection "doesn't work," your going to be getting 4:1 and you'll have like 35% equity.

[SuperJon 175]

In a game where 8 people take a flop, you often have to make a hand that can beat top pair, particularly if people play loose post flop.

There are many pieces of great advice regarding small stakes hold'em.This is one of them, imo.

[Tactical Bear 3]

Civilians seem largely incapable of understanding the whole "it's operating capital, the swings are meaningless, my winrate is X" thing. I prefer it that way; if my poker play comes up, I like to play up my degeneracy, now.

This is what I have been doing for years. I'm a very logical, rational person. (I even wear glasses and dress well now, which wasn't always the case.) I've had tons of conversations with semi-important people -- parents, girlfriend, prospective girlfriend, Shitty Aunt Gail, friends -- about Gambling with an Edge (ie, poker, sports betting, etc.), and how it's a logical, mathematical, equitable investment of my time and resources. I have used every single analogy possible, including the "capital, labor, income from operations, expenses, opportunity cost, ROI" economics/finance example you forward above, and at best, about 20% of people come to some conclusion other than "Wow, you sure like to gamble, don't you? Are you delusional?"After a few years of getting furious, sitting people down, and drawing graphs, charts, and showing them 100K sample win-rates to no avail, I finally got frustrated and started saying, "Yeah, I'm a degenerate. I will gamble on anything and everything." The latter statement is true, obviously, but does not bear some causal relationship with the first, though nobody seems to find that distinction important. People think extensive gambling is both a necessary AND SUFFICIENT condition of degeneracy, and I'm okay with that now. That's what people think of me. "Wang is a ****ing sicko." I take no pride in my reputation (honest), but I bear no shame, either. If you want an explanation, I'll give you one. If you plan on drawing some conclusions about my inherent nature based on the fact that I'm swearing at the TV while check/shoving ever 6th hand at Greektown Casino, who am I to stop you?Girl: "So, what are you doing?" Wang: "I'm playing poker and sweating sports bets."Girl: "Oh... uh, okay? You gamble a lot?"Wang: "Yup. At least 40% of my waking hours, I either have action or am looking for it."People can either accept it, or not. It's easier for me, since I came to gambling at a young age, and have entered into most of my important relationships with my gambling habit firmly established. Women have a chance to reject me prima facie; I'm not DEVELOPING some habit they have to deal with. That's an important distinction. I would never stay with a girl that nagged me about the gambling. "Listen, this is what I do, and it is part of who I am. It's like your breast size. You could change it, but I would never expect you to do it for me. If it became a problem, I would reject you on those grounds. Or, more likely, I would realize it's simply a part of who you are, and love you regardless. When it comes to MY GAMBLING, you have to make a decision, not me."WangPS- Oh, it's the same thing with my intense racism, too.

[antistuff 0]

This is what I have been doing for years. I'm a very logical, rational person. (I even wear glasses and dress well now, which wasn't always the case.) I've had tons of conversations with semi-important people -- parents, girlfriend, prospective girlfriend, Shitty Aunt Gail, friends -- about Gambling with an Edge (ie, poker, sports betting, etc.), and how it's a logical, mathematical, equitable investment of my time and resources. I have used every single analogy possible, including the "capital, labor, income from operations, expenses, opportunity cost, ROI" economics/finance example you forward above, and at best, about 20% of people come to some conclusion other than "Wow, you sure like to gamble, don't you? Are you delusional?"After a few years of getting furious, sitting people down, and drawing graphs, charts, and showing them 100K sample win-rates to no avail, I finally got frustrated and started saying, "Yeah, I'm a degenerate. I will gamble on anything and everything." The latter statement is true, obviously, but does not bear some causal relationship with the first, though nobody seems to find that distinction important. People think extensive gambling is both a necessary AND SUFFICIENT condition of degeneracy, and I'm okay with that now. That's what people think of me. "Wang is a ****ing sicko." I take no pride in my reputation (honest), but I bear no shame, either. If you want an explanation, I'll give you one. If you plan on drawing some conclusions about my inherent nature based on the fact that I'm swearing at the TV while check/shoving ever 6th hand at Greektown Casino, who am I to stop you?Girl: "So, what are you doing?" Wang: "I'm playing poker and sweating sports bets."Girl: "Oh... uh, okay? You gamble a lot?"Wang: "Yup. At least 40% of my waking hours, I either have action or am looking for it."People can either accept it, or not. It's easier for me, since I came to gambling at a young age, and have entered into most of my important relationships with my gambling habit firmly established. Women have a chance to reject me prima facie; I'm not DEVELOPING some habit they have to deal with. That's an important distinction. I would never stay with a girl that nagged me about the gambling. "Listen, this is what I do, and it is part of who I am. It's like your breast size. You could change it, but I would never expect you to do it for me. If it became a problem, I would reject you on those grounds. Or, more likely, I would realize it's simply a part of who you are, and love you regardless. When it comes to MY GAMBLING, you have to make a decision, not me."WangPS- Oh, it's the same thing with my intense racism, too.

are you shimmering wang's other account?

[Tactical Bear 3]

are you shimmering wang's other account?

Yes.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I agree and can identify with all of what you've said, Wang, but it should clarified for the other posters that in your particular case, you actually are sort of a degenerate.

[jmbreslin 0]

Wait a minute, let me see if I have a handle on this. First, your name is Wang? Second, you have a relative you call "Shitty Aunt Gail?"

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I agree and can identify with all of what you've said, Wang, but it should clarified for the other posters that in your particular case, you actually are sort of a degenerate.

What people don't understand, is that you can be a complete degenerate gambling addict, and still win money. Civilians think all degenerates lose money. I doubt you can get a more degenerate gambler than Ivey, for example.

[Dirtydutch 8]

What people don't understand, is that you can be a complete degenerate gambling addict, and still win money. Civilians think all degenerates lose money. I doubt you can get a more degenerate gambler than Ivey, for example.

Oh, absolutely. Real-word poker pros I'm sure are mostly the sickest, slimiest degenerates in the world. I'm not saying Wang is a -EV gambler. I'm just saying that Wang's networth probably triples or evaporates several times a day, and he passes out because he has such comparatively massive wagers on sick things he doesn't even care about, like dog shows and shit. I'm not saying that he doesn't turn a profit, just that if you're winning or losing 12k on a European golf match, and you're not a European golfer, you're probably extremely sick in the head to keep putting yourself through that. Most of us couldn't do it.

[DinkDonk 1]

Oh, absolutely. Real-word poker pros I'm sure are mostly the sickest, slimiest degenerates in the world. I'm not saying Wang is a -EV gambler. I'm just saying that Wang's networth probably triples or evaporates several times a day, and he passes out because he has such comparatively massive wagers on sick things he doesn't even care about, like dog shows and shit. I'm not saying that he doesn't turn a profit, just that if you're winning or losing 12k on a European golf match, and you're not a European golfer, you're probably extremely sick in the head to keep putting yourself through that. Most of us couldn't do it.

I am a poker pro now and I pretty much never gamble. This will probably change at some point as I get into sports betting, but the gambling aspect of these things just doesn't entice me at all. I've never bought a lottery ticket or played a pit game or slot machine. I've never bet on a horse race, and I've never bet more than $10 on a sports event. I think joining a $100 fantasy football league is as gamble-y as I've gotten. When I do gamble, it has to be with a pretty clear edge, because I just do not get excited by the action of it. I think this makes me a ****ing alien in this line of work.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I am a poker pro now and I pretty much never gamble. This will probably change at some point as I get into sports betting, but the gambling aspect of these things just doesn't entice me at all. I've never bought a lottery ticket or played a pit game or slot machine. I've never bet on a horse race, and I've never bet more than $10 on a sports event. I think joining a $100 fantasy football league is as gamble-y as I've gotten. When I do gamble, it has to be with a pretty clear edge, because I just do not get excited by the action of it. I think this makes me a ****ing alien in this line of work.

Hence "real-world." Nerdy new school internet kids don't count. It's an entirely different mentality.

[antistuff 0]

I am a poker pro now and I pretty much never gamble. This will probably change at some point as I get into sports betting, but the gambling aspect of these things just doesn't entice me at all. I've never bought a lottery ticket or played a pit game or slot machine. I've never bet on a horse race, and I've never bet more than $10 on a sports event. I think joining a $100 fantasy football league is as gamble-y as I've gotten. When I do gamble, it has to be with a pretty clear edge, because I just do not get excited by the action of it. I think this makes me a ****ing alien in this line of work.

im pretty much like this. ill throw my whole savings account on a poker table but play $5 black jack and wish they had tables where you could bet less. it pisses me off and offends me when people think i have a gambling problem. if i didn't play poker i would be spending just as much time hacking away at c++ or juggling or any of the other things that i can spend hours doing. i'm an obsessive person for sure, but not a compulsive gambler.

[DinkDonk 1]

Hence "real-world." Nerdy new school internet kids don't count. It's an entirely different mentality.

Yep. I agree completely. Most of those real world guys have no idea how to think about poker either. It's just another gambling game that they are less terrible at than the recreational players. This isn't true of all live pros/players fwiw, just a lot of the low-middle end guys.