Looking For Advice On Limit Micro

[potatoman 0]

So, I've built up a decent micro bankroll (started with $1 and now have $100+). 90 per cent of this is from playing $.50 and $1 sngs. I'm very good at these and have never completed sets of 100 of them without seeing a pretty sizable profit. I know what I'm doing and feel very comfortable playing them and when my AA get cracked by a pair of 5s to take me out in fourth place, I can laugh it off because I have confidence in my game.I would have a much larger bankroll (been playing for over a year) but I have this desire to constantly improve my poker game. So I learned to play well in Razz, and stud hi/lo and in limit sngs. Learning is short term -Ev but I believe it will pay off in the future. A couple of times, I've even sat in nl $20 short handed cash tables on AP and feel if I have a proper bankroll I would have the ability to easily see a profit there - moreso than in my current SNGs.But, since I don't have the proper bankroll for nl tables, I've turned my attention to the micro limit tables. I've been playing the limit tables off and on for the last 4 months, but recently have been playing them constantly for the last week. I am under no illusion that this is a large sample size, but I've watched my bankroll go up by $6 and then go into a tailspin, down $14 - at $.10/.20??!!First, is this normal? From my perspective, for every bad play I make, I get hit by about 50 bad beats. I am new to limit and don't even consider myself an average player. But my tables are full of people who call 4 bets with 62 suited preflop. Even if I didn't play perfect, I should be seeing a small profit or at least taking a small loss, not losing about 100 BB over maybe 5-6 hours of play on one table.My assumption if I were reading this is potatoman must suck at limit. Possibly. Assume for a second that I at least do the following fairly well:Play the right starting hands per position on the table, almost always coming in for a raise - very little limping in my game.If I hit my harnd, I don't get fancy. I bet, raise and reraise and don't fold on the river headsup just because a scare card comes. Although I may slow down.I study my opponents to figure out what hands they play and how they play, when they bluff etc.I bluff a bit, but against so many calling stations, it's usually better to just have the goods and get paid off.I read the strategy forums on this and other sites and work to improve my game. So, should these kinds of loses be expected at this level considering the increased probability of bad beats playing morons? Are big swings just part of playing cash games or do you think I'm missing something?I could just quit limit - play sngs till I hit $1,000 and then take on nl, which I'm much stronger in. But I'm just a huge believer in self-improvement and taking on challenges. I want to work on becoming a solid limit player. I just don't want to lose my bankroll playing $.10/.20 for a week.

[tuckermitchell 1]

GL playing limit holdem at the micro level. I think you would be better off just buying a Hinder CD and slitting your wrists.But... I do have a little help that may be useful.I would do a lot more limping. By saying a board "hits" your hand, you should only really be pushing hard with flopped sets, flushes, or FD/SD type hands. I would call someone down in a pot if I had AK if the Flop was say K26. Get in a value river bet. Keep the pots small unless you have a hand that is the absolute nuts or is drawing to it.Another bit of a question. I think 100 bones is plenty of money to at least play .02/.05 NL. At that level I have easily won over 30 bucks a day two tabling. good luck

[kkot 0]

GL playing limit holdem at the micro level. I think you would be better off just buying a Hinder CD and slitting your wrists.But... I do have a little help that may be useful.I would do a lot more limping. By saying a board "hits" your hand, you should only really be pushing hard with flopped sets, flushes, or FD/SD type hands. I would call someone down in a pot if I had AK if the Flop was say K26. Get in a value river bet. Keep the pots small unless you have a hand that is the absolute nuts or is drawing to it.Another bit of a question. I think 100 bones is plenty of money to at least play .02/.05 NL. At that level I have easily won over 30 bucks a day two tabling. good luck

I'm going to wholeheartedly disagree.You have to value bet your *** off. Bad players love to call you down. Punish them. Have you read SSHE? If not, do that.And post hands in the appropriate strat forums. The guys there are pretty smart and enjoy helping. I think micro limit games are among the most crushable games out there. If you work at it, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to beat them.

[potatoman 0]

GL playing limit holdem at the micro level. I think you would be better off just buying a Hinder CD and slitting your wrists.But... I do have a little help that may be useful.I would do a lot more limping. By saying a board "hits" your hand, you should only really be pushing hard with flopped sets, flushes, or FD/SD type hands. I would call someone down in a pot if I had AK if the Flop was say K26. Get in a value river bet. Keep the pots small unless you have a hand that is the absolute nuts or is drawing to it.Another bit of a question. I think 100 bones is plenty of money to at least play .02/.05 NL. At that level I have easily won over 30 bucks a day two tabling. good luck

Currently I have enough for about 5 buyins at nl shorthanded at the lowest level available to me. Would seem a lot like suicide to me.If I have AK and cap the betting say against a guy with AQ and a guy with 35 of diamonds and the flop comes A62 with 2 diamonds, shouldn't I be trying to get as much money in the pot as possible, at least until the third diamond, queen or four comes on the river? I don't see why I want to keep the pots small when I'm ahead. I understand this aggressive style may be leading to my current down turn, but isn't it still +EV over the long term? Think I'd be even more annoyed with myself for check calling myself into losing river situations and not forcing draws to pay.

[sprfcta 0]

I have played about a brazillion hours at those limits, and while I can't tell you how to win, I can tell you how to hold your own. (in no particular order)1) Don't raise the river unless you have the nuts or feel VERY strongly that you do.2) If there are three of the same suit on the board, someone most likely has a flush. Be aware, be VERY aware.3) The "any two suited cards making two pair" is the bane of all micro limit games. Don't assume your AK is good on a board of A37 rainbow. If you bet and get raised, DON'T re-raise.4) It is difficult, if not impossible, to bluff anyone off of anything. (It was just a dime...)5) It is more a game of "minimizing losses" than winning lots of pots. Play tight, watch the pitfalls, and you will win, just maybe not as fast as you would hope.

[kkot 0]

If I have AK and cap the betting say against a guy with AQ and a guy with 35 of diamonds and the flop comes A62 with 2 diamonds, shouldn't I be trying to get as much money in the pot as possible, at least until the third diamond, queen or four comes on the river? I don't see why I want to keep the pots small when I'm ahead. I understand this aggressive style may be leading to my current down turn, but isn't it still +EV over the long term? Think I'd be even more annoyed with myself for check calling myself into losing river situations and not forcing draws to pay.

Yes.It will be swingy in the short term, but it's the long run that matters.How large is your sample, by the way?

I have played about a brazillion hours at those limits, and while I can't tell you how to win, I can tell you how to hold your own. (in no particular order)1) Don't raise the river unless you have the nuts or feel VERY strongly that you do.2) If there are three of the same suit on the board, someone most likely has a flush. Be aware, be VERY aware.3) The "any two suited cards making two pair" is the bane of all micro limit games. Don't assume your AK is good on a board of A37 rainbow. If you bet and get raised, DON'T re-raise.4) It is difficult, if not impossible, to bluff anyone off of anything. (It was just a dime...)5) It is more a game of "minimizing losses" than winning lots of pots. Play tight, watch the pitfalls, and you will win, just maybe not as fast as you would hope.

1. Raise if you have reason to beleive you have the best hand.2. That depends on the action before, but you may still have to charge the single card flush draws still out there.3. This depends on the villain. If he raises light, go ahead and 3bet. He may have you beat this time, but usually not.4. Again, depends on the player. Take notes. If he calls down lightly, consider value betting Ace high.5. Against looser players you can, and should, loosen up yourself. They are giving you great implied odds. Take it. Maximize profit!

[potatoman 0]

I'm going to wholeheartedly disagree.You have to value bet your *** off. Bad players love to call you down. Punish them. That's what I've been lead to believe and it's what I've been doing. I've been looking over some of my hands and I'm starting to strongly suspect I'm just getting hit with a lot of bad luck. I'm actually only down about 40 BB which isn't a big deal. Not looking to cry off a bunch of bad beat stories. I actually like bad beats, since they just reinforce the fact that I play better than my opponents and that a profit should be coming. But yeah it's been people capping bets with 29 offsuit and hitting running 2s. Sometimes it's Q9 flopping a str8 against me. It's not like I cap streets to bad flops, but shorthanded, you can't fold to every flop that fills Q9.Have you read SSHE? If not, do that.I will be buying this book on Tuesday. Like I said, I have no reason to believe I'm a great limit player or know every trick in the book. I'm just a little annoyed since I feel I'm playing better than at least four other players at the table at all times and losing very quickly.And post hands in the appropriate strat forums. The guys there are pretty smart and enjoy helping. I have a couple of hands stored away for that purpose. I think most of what I've played so far is pretty standard. Just hard to put someone on J3 offsuit calling a 3bet against 3 other opponents.I think micro limit games are among the most crushable games out there. If you work at it, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to beat them.See, that's what I thought. And maybe in two days I'll come back and tell you I'm back up 100 BB. I'd like to hear from someone who's been able to beat these limits. Did they have any bad stretches, or were players so bad that bad runs were next to impossible. As bad as I've been running, I also won a pot tonight worth $4.60-$4.80. The advantage of playing calling station morons is when you do manage to win a showdown, the pot tends to be huge.

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[kkot 0]

See, that's what I thought. And maybe in two days I'll come back and tell you I'm back up 100 BB. I'd like to hear from someone who's been able to beat these limits. Did they have any bad stretches, or were players so bad that bad runs were next to impossible.

I'm currently playing .05/.1 and .1/.2.Here's my graph from this weekend.It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you're doing, so it's probably just a bad run. Just make sure the bad run doesn't affect (effect?) your play and you should be fine.

[tuckermitchell 1]

You can disagree with me KKot, and I think you have good reason to. I just must not have what it takes to be profitable AT ALL at limit holdem. I seem to get sucked out more than Charlie Sheen on a coke bender in Hollywood. I play a really TAG style in NL cash games and I feel like I minimize a lot of my losses by winning more hands without showdown by pricing players out. I can't do that in limit so I catch myself "going along for the ride" alot of the time. I have a ton of respect for guys who are really profitable at these levels as it takes a ton of patience and pretty good hand reading capability. Congrats.

[kkot 0]

You can disagree with me KKot, and I think you have good reason to. I just must not have what it takes to be profitable AT ALL at limit holdem. I seem to get sucked out more than Charlie Sheen on a coke bender in Hollywood. I play a really TAG style in NL cash games and I feel like I minimize a lot of my losses by winning more hands without showdown by pricing players out. I can't do that in limit so I catch myself "going along for the ride" alot of the time. I have a ton of respect for guys who are really profitable at these levels as it takes a ton of patience and pretty good hand reading capability. Congrats.

That's pretty funny. That's almost exactly how I feel about playing NLHE. Go figure.

[blacktie31 0]

If you are beating the STT i'd keep that up untill you have enough roll to play NL or PL. Limit will take forever to build with much larger swings.

[potatoman 0]

Yes.It will be swingy in the short term, but it's the long run that matters.How large is your sample, by the way?1. Raise if you have reason to believe you have the best hand.2. That depends on the action before, but you may still have to charge the single card flush draws still out there.3. This depends on the villain. If he raises light, go ahead and 3bet. He may have you beat this time, but usually not.4. Again, depends on the player. Take notes. If he calls down lightly, consider value betting Ace high.5. Against looser players you can, and should, loosen up yourself. They are giving you great implied odds. Take it. Maximize profit!

I think you and me went to the same poker school. I'm not going to shut down just because three clubs hit the flop against 1-2 opponents or I get reraise with TP/TK. I'm not ramming and jamming anymore but I can't fold to every opponent every time this happens Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I just called down an opponent with A high, something I almost never do, because I've caught him betting with air 3 times in 40 hands. Some opponents I'll fold to on the turn to a reraise because I know 9/10 times, that reraise means I'm horribly behind and that 10th time, good on them for bluffing me. It's important to remember I'm playing 4-6 handed, which means I can't wait for trips, flushes and str8. Pairs are taking down the majority of pots, even with 3-4 players seeing the flop.Against looser players you can, and should, loosen up yourself. They are giving you great implied odds. Take it. Maximize profit! -----> Now that's something I haven't been doing. I play fairly loose right now, but I could try playing more hands like J10, K10, JQ more often. Just seems like these hands are only going to get me in trouble if I play them from early position. I usually play them from late possible, and fold them to raises from reasonable players.Sample size - well, since I started playing these limits - probably like 5,000 hands (thought 50,000 at first but I think it was more like 5,000). But I reset my AP stats when when I dropped about $9. I figured I'd play until I either hit 100,000 hands or lost another $10.

[Actuary 3]

don't post strategy questions in the General Poker Forum,that would be a good start.micro limit is very beatable.more so BECAUSE players call with bad odds.take your game seriously and start posting in the proper forum

[potatoman 0]

don't post strategy questions in the General Poker Forum,that would be a good start.micro limit is very beatable.more so BECAUSE players call with bad odds.take your game seriously and start posting in the proper forum

Thanks for your wonderful insight and kind words. I didn't intend for this to become a strategy discussion, although I suppose it became one and I apologize. Mostly I was asking about people's experience with micro limit swings, are they beatable and whether it would be better to just stick with sngs or keep trying to beat limit and any general advice. If I had hands to discuss or particular situations (playing AA on a paired board) I would have posted in strategy. Sorry to ruin your day.

[Actuary 3]

Thanks for your wonderful insight and kind words.

okee dokee.

[sprfcta 0]

Yes.It will be swingy in the short term, but it's the long run that matters.How large is your sample, by the way?1. Raise if you have reason to beleive you have the best hand.2. That depends on the action before, but you may still have to charge the single card flush draws still out there.3. This depends on the villain. If he raises light, go ahead and 3bet. He may have you beat this time, but usually not.4. Again, depends on the player. Take notes. If he calls down lightly, consider value betting Ace high.5. Against looser players you can, and should, loosen up yourself. They are giving you great implied odds. Take it. Maximize profit!

You do realize we are talking about limit here, right? How do you raise "light" in limit? Also, in micro limit, you are usually not talking about THE villain, usually there are several of them. Makes a difference.Potatoman, I never said "shut down". I said "be careful, and be aware".Personally, I prefer to play a full table (9-10) on the theory that you get to see many more hole cards for each round of blinds, and when you get a good hand there are more people to pay you off.Biggest pot: 54 BB

[11 to 1 0]

But, since I don't have the proper bankroll for nl tables, I've turned my attention to the micro limit tables.

Back....away.....from.....the.....table.....Boy, did you screw yourself. Look, you sound a lot like me, I did pretty much the same thing. I don't know where you play, but you certainly have the bankroll to play micro NL at PStars. These are two different games, so you are a winning NL player at SnGs and decide to play some other game?Stop it. Go play NL. If you have to play those SnGs a while longer to make enough to feel comfortable, do. Play higher buy-in SnGs, play micro MTTs, do anything you can in NL, but don't switch games midstream.Or do - but you'll pay, IMO.

[kkot 0]

You do realize we are talking about limit here, right? How do you raise "light" in limit?

I meant if he raises with garbage. Just a misunderstanding.

Also, in micro limit, you are usually not talking about THE villain, usually there are several of them. Makes a difference.

You still bet for value. More players calling with more bad hands is more value. More variance, but more value.

[StupidKid 0]

Back....away.....from.....the.....table.....Boy, did you screw yourself. Look, you sound a lot like me, I did pretty much the same thing. I don't know where you play, but you certainly have the bankroll to play micro NL at PStars. These are two different games, so you are a winning NL player at SnGs and decide to play some other game?Stop it. Go play NL. If you have to play those SnGs a while longer to make enough to feel comfortable, do. Play higher buy-in SnGs, play micro MTTs, do anything you can in NL, but don't switch games midstream.Or do - but you'll pay, IMO.

I think OP has money on absolute, there the lowest buy in NL table is $20 i.e 1/6 of his BR, not good BR management. If I were you OP I would stick to the sngs, the play is so so bad on AP its a joke.

[litlebullet 0]

I think OP has money on absolute, there the lowest buy in NL table is $20 i.e 1/6 of his BR, not good BR management. If I were you OP I would stick to the sngs, the play is so so bad on AP its a joke.

we're supposed to keep that a secret, k?

[bige321786 0]

You're on the right track. Play your good hands and play them hard. Unlike NLHE, LimitHE is a drawing game; you should be drawing to your nut flush and nut straight draws, when the pot size calls for it I highly recommend reading Sklansky's SSHE. This has all been said before...blah blah blahI think one of the most important aspects of playing small stakes LHE online is table selection. Look for a table with a high % of players seeing the flop without a huge average pot size. This is a flag for many loose-passive players, aka, calling stations, aka, exactly who you want to play LHE against.Also, I would keep a likely table open for a while before sitting down and look at the hands players are showing down. Note the players who are showing down mediocre and bad hands out of position. Most of your profit in small stakes LHE comes from a few awful players at the table. Recognize them early, and if they're in a pot, you should even play your more mediocre hands against them because they will pay you off when you connect.Good luck.

[potatoman 0]

Back....away.....from.....the.....table.....Boy, did you screw yourself. Look, you sound a lot like me, I did pretty much the same thing. I don't know where you play, but you certainly have the bankroll to play micro NL at PStars. These are two different games, so you are a winning NL player at SnGs and decide to play some other game?Stop it. Go play NL. If you have to play those SnGs a while longer to make enough to feel comfortable, do. Play higher buy-in SnGs, play micro MTTs, do anything you can in NL, but don't switch games midstream.Or do - but you'll pay, IMO.

Well, I've lost about $8.00 playing limit so far. Something I can recoup in about 10-30 sngs, so not a big deal so I'm hardly screwing myself. I know I can always go back to sngs, and I will at some point.I consider myself a good nl player, a good razz player (that game is so easy, it's retarded) and an okay stud hi/lo player. I want to become a good limit player, so if I have to take a beating now to become so (beating meaning more of a waste of time more than money - so be it). Even if I lose $20, I can AND WILL go back to sngs, build back up and at least have built up my limit game a bit.If AP had full table limit, I'd play it and be pretty confident of seeing a profit. But on AP, they all play short handed, which, in my understanding means bigger variance and making tougher decisions. It's also a style of play I'm not completely used to. I just like the challenge and it sounds like some people beat the hell out of it, so I'll give it a try. If the consensus was micro limit short handed is always a losing game, I'd quit now, build my roll to $800-$1000 and beat the hell out of the nl cash tables, which would be an easier transition for me. I love switching up games. Even when I play sngs I play razz, stud hi/lo, limit and nl. Although probably 80 per cent nl. Still I'm probably like 70 per cent ITM with razz and stud hi/lo since low limit players suck at those games. I mostly play nl though since it's a personal favourite and the tables fill up quicker where I'm about 55 ITM.I never play Omaha, because I suck so completely at that game that it would take a bankroll 10 times the size my mine to get any good at it. I do plan on becoming a good Omaha player at some point in the future, but for now I'd like to take on one game at a time. Right now it's limit. If I sucked at bankroll management, I would have gone broke a long time ago. My main concern was whether micro limit is profitable long term. If experienced players are telling me they can beat it, than I want to learn how. Although, at this point, if I manage to get unstuck, you can expect me to go back to sngs just to pad my bankroll a bit.

[potatoman 0]

I'm currently playing .05/.1 and .1/.2.Here's my graph from this weekend.It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you're doing, so it's probably just a bad run. Just make sure the bad run doesn't affect (effect?) your play and you should be fine.

This was very helpful. It's nice to see someone who seems like a solid limit player still take a 40 BB down swing at some point. Is this shorthanded?

[Zach6668 513]

lol @ some of the advice in this thread.

[Actuary 3]

This was very helpful. It's nice to see someone who seems like a solid limit player still take a 40 BB down swing at some point. Is this shorthanded?

if you are a solid limit player, losses of more than 10 BB are rare.kkot probably sux.