New Challenge (old Challenge)

[Vick12 0]

So what do we do? Fly to Chicago and beat the **** out of Jeff?

I can give you his address...Also...I have a question about a hand i played yesterday. (sorry didn't save the hh).50/1.00 NL Ring (9 people)UTG makes it $3.50 (Stack of $200 or so). Utg +1 calls (Rathole stack of around $35)...folds to me in sb and I call w/ 7s9s (stack of $150)FlopKs10s8sI check...Utg makes it $12 and Utg+1 snap shoves his remaining $35. I then reraise and hit the pot button making it...what...$60 on top of that raise. Utg then tanks and shoves me in and I obv snap call...he has AsKx obv....then OBV he hits the 5 outer and snags the $350 pot.My question is...isn't this a horrid reshove by him? 1st of all...he is on 3 other tables w/ me and knows I am a nit...ldo. Now I understand he doesn't know 2 of his spade outs are dead, but when I checkraise over a raise and a reraise and he is holding the As...he has to know I am not bluff-reraising a draw. I have to have at worst a set in this spot and I likely flopped a flush. So if he assumes I do have the flush...then he has 7 outs at best in this spot. I don't play cash a ton...so please tell me I am right and it's a spewy reshove...or I am wrong and this is textbook by him.Thanks!

[RDog 0]

I can give you his address...Also...I have a question about a hand i played yesterday. (sorry didn't save the hh).50/1.00 NL Ring (9 people)UTG makes it $3.50 (Stack of $200 or so). Utg +1 calls (Rathole stack of around $35)...folds to me in sb and I call w/ 7s9s (stack of $150)FlopKs10s8sI check...Utg makes it $12 and Utg+1 snap shoves his remaining $35. I then reraise and hit the pot button making it...what...$60 on top of that raise. Utg then tanks and shoves me in and I obv snap call...he has AsKx obv....then OBV he hits the 5 outer and snags the $350 pot.My question is...isn't this a horrid reshove by him? 1st of all...he is on 3 other tables w/ me and knows I am a nit...ldo. Now I understand he doesn't know 2 of his spade outs are dead, but when I checkraise over a raise and a reraise and he is holding the As...he has to know I am not bluff-reraising a draw. I have to have at worst a set in this spot and I likely flopped a flush. So if he assumes I do have the flush...then he has 7 outs at best in this spot. I don't play cash a ton...so please tell me I am right and it's a spewy reshove...or I am wrong and this is textbook by him.Thanks!

Yes. There was a very similar hand that Sean played a few weeks ago that I did the math on showing his shove was pretty bad. That math is slightly different than here but its still going to be a fold by UTG because his Ace and King are never going to be live in this spot. Worst hand you are doing this with is a set.

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

I can give you his address...Also...I have a question about a hand i played yesterday. (sorry didn't save the hh).50/1.00 NL Ring (9 people)UTG makes it $3.50 (Stack of $200 or so). Utg +1 calls (Rathole stack of around $35)...folds to me in sb and I call w/ 7s9s (stack of $150)FlopKs10s8sI check...Utg makes it $12 and Utg+1 snap shoves his remaining $35. I then reraise and hit the pot button making it...what...$60 on top of that raise. Utg then tanks and shoves me in and I obv snap call...he has AsKx obv....then OBV he hits the 5 outer and snags the $350 pot.My question is...isn't this a horrid reshove by him? 1st of all...he is on 3 other tables w/ me and knows I am a nit...ldo. Now I understand he doesn't know 2 of his spade outs are dead, but when I checkraise over a raise and a reraise and he is holding the As...he has to know I am not bluff-reraising a draw. I have to have at worst a set in this spot and I likely flopped a flush. So if he assumes I do have the flush...then he has 7 outs at best in this spot. I don't play cash a ton...so please tell me I am right and it's a spewy reshove...or I am wrong and this is textbook by him.Thanks!

There aren't a ton of times i'm not shipping top top w/ NFD, but 150BB deep against a nit is in that category.

[Vick12 0]

Yes. There was a very similar hand that Sean played a few weeks ago that I did the math on showing his shove was pretty bad. That math is slightly different than here but its still going to be a fold by UTG because his Ace and King are never going to be live in this spot. Worst hand you are doing this with is a set.

Thanks Rdog! I was pretty steamed at losing the pot and was pretty sure it was a horrid play by this guy. But since he was on 3 other tables w/ me...I assumed he is a reg/decent player so I thought maybe my thought process was wrong.

[Vick12 0]

There aren't a ton of times i'm not shipping top top w/ NFD, but 150BB deep against a nit is in that category.

K...are u talking HU, 6max, Full ring or all? I know you play a lot of HU that's why I am asking. I also checkraise 4 bet this puppy. So if I am NOT a nit...is this a shove by him?

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

K...are u talking HU, 6max, Full ring or all? I know you play a lot of HU that's why I am asking. I also checkraise 4 bet this puppy. So if I am NOT a nit...is this a shove by him?

actually i'm grinding full ring NL, PLO and O8 on cake right now, so that comment comes very much from a full ring perspective. HU it's an obvious ship and i suck at 6max so i won't answer that one.

[RDog 0]

K...are u talking HU, 6max, Full ring or all? I know you play a lot of HU that's why I am asking. I also checkraise 4 bet this puppy. So if I am NOT a nit...is this a shove by him?

Given the action this is going to be a fold at 6 max or FR. HU is much different because you can't have 3 people in the hand and people are willing to stack off much lighter. For instance, you never are 3 balling in your spot with KxQ-Js but HU someone could certainly be doing that so you could never fold AsKx.

[zimmer4141 0]

One more exam in a half-hour. Anyone want to do a propbet that I can put in 25k+ hands, all MSNL 6-max from the end of my exam today to the end of the year?

[The Lobster 0]

I took Tuesday off as I had my worst day ever on Monday... I apologize for doomswitching you all yesterday.

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

One more exam in a half-hour. Anyone want to do a propbet that I can put in 25k+ hands, all MSNL 6-max from the end of my exam today to the end of the year?

i'll do it if i can add the stipulation "profitably"

[Sheiky 0]

I can only assume that i'm stealing all the good luck from everyone on FCP?

[psujohn 0]

<----- hasn't had a real job in 5 years<----- starts one on mondaysigh

[NoSup4U 0]

I got home from the ER around 5am. very sick wife. i am at work and very, very, tired.

Ugh, I hope she gets better :(Adam, utg's shove is bad there, but here is his thought process, which is common to a lot of mediocre regs: He has top pair, and over, and the nut draw. So in his mind while he's probably behind, he knows he has a 'ton' of outs because he has tp with the nut draw. But he doesn't understand the math that vs your range in this spot, he's way behind and should fold. imo your range here is 2pair+. And vs two pair he's probably 50/50 assuming you don't have any flush cards and there is already money in the pot so its not that bad.But unfortunately in this spot the rest of your raising range has him crushed. Its just a great spot for you except that he sucked out. I see this a lot though even at the 3/6nl level. People CALL off all their money with a pair and a flush draw (or even just overs and a flush draw) in a situation where for sure their only outs are the flush. But the know that with overs and a flush draw they have '15' outs because they read that somewhere....Mark

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Ugh, I hope she gets better Adam, utg's shove is bad there, but here is his thought process, which is common to a lot of mediocre regs: He has top pair, and over, and the nut draw. So in his mind while he's probably behind, he knows he has a 'ton' of outs because he has tp with the nut draw. But he doesn't understand the math that vs your range in this spot, he's way behind and should fold. imo your range here is 2pair+. And vs two pair he's probably 50/50 assuming you don't have any flush cards and there is already money in the pot so its not that bad.But unfortunately in this spot the rest of your raising range has him crushed. Its just a great spot for you except that he sucked out. I see this a lot though even at the 3/6nl level. People CALL off all their money with a pair and a flush draw (or even just overs and a flush draw) in a situation where for sure their only outs are the flush. But the know that with overs and a flush draw they have '15' outs because they read that somewhere....Mark

and if you want to be able to quantify this somehow, check out Galfond Bucks - http://www.bluffmagazine.com/onlinefeature/gbucks.asp

[TB17 0]

Adam posts for the first time here and of course its a bad beat story. Dunno how he lost the HH though it's usually already copied and pasted

[Vick12 0]

Adam posts for the first time here and of course its a bad beat story. Dunno how he lost the HH though it's usually already copied and pasted

Loool...smd Teddy!!!Also...fyi...I have 54 posts in this thread...I mean...55!!!I didn't post it as a "bad beat", I honestly wasn't 100% sure his play was horrid. I mean...I was pretty sure it was bad, but not 100%! Last...it was a hand on Full Tilt and I didn't feel like searching my cpu for it. Now if it was Stars, it is 100% certain I would have cut and pasted it!!!How's your mom doing?

[terradawg 0]

howdy folks. looking to do a small transfer. have $100 tilt, need $100 stars. will ship first obv. thanks!!!

[Potsie P 0]

Ugh, I hope she gets better :(Adam, utg's shove is bad there, but here is his thought process, which is common to a lot of mediocre regs: He has top pair, and over, and the nut draw. So in his mind while he's probably behind, he knows he has a 'ton' of outs because he has tp with the nut draw. But he doesn't understand the math that vs your range in this spot, he's way behind and should fold. imo your range here is 2pair+. And vs two pair he's probably 50/50 assuming you don't have any flush cards and there is already money in the pot so its not that bad.But unfortunately in this spot the rest of your raising range has him crushed. Its just a great spot for you except that he sucked out. I see this a lot though even at the 3/6nl level. People CALL off all their money with a pair and a flush draw (or even just overs and a flush draw) in a situation where for sure their only outs are the flush. But the know that with overs and a flush draw they have '15' outs because they read that somewhere....Mark

I'm no expert but I am a mediocre player, so I might be qualified to shed some light on villain's thought process a bit. I'm not saying the following is GOOD PLAY, obv.CONFESSIONS OF A MEDIOCRE PLAYER (IN THIS SITUATION):If I'm the villain, to me it's about more than 15 outs (which we know is not really 15 outs for the various holdings you might have). My thought process would be more along the lines of: "If I'm not willing to go with this flop (TP+NFD) against a good opponent, why am I even in the hand? Especially against a good opponent who may just be getting frisky on a dangerous-looking board."OP, you say you're a nit, but as a marginal player myself, I tend to expand the ranges of people whom I consider better players than me, because it's their ability to get involved with marginal hands (and win from them) that is one of the essential things that MAKES them a better player than me. So the argument Mark makes about understanding the math "for your range" is off IMO, because to this marginal player, your range is wider than it may actually be in reality (or at least to you, which is all that matters).FYI, as a marginal player, I'm willing to take a hand like AKo, flop TP+NFD, and throw myself to the mercy of the poker gods. Especially if I think I can't outplay you over the long haul. When I play tougher, better, more experienced opponents (which isn't often at the microlimits I play), I don't respect raises and thus reraise myself a lot. My thought process is my capable opponents know the advantages of being aggressive and can play marginal hands better than me, so they're probably being frisky/loose. As the one who appears (or actually is) less experienced, then, MY reraises (I hope) tend to be looked at more seriously as "guess what, I'm the one who woke up with the big hand."So the best way for a good (better) player to beat me, a marginal player, is to actually show up with big hands because I'm more likely to pay you off, since I don't "respect" your opening range...for the precise reason that you are a better player. Make sense? Anyway, take comfort that you did this in this situation and just got on the wrong side of the math. But understand this MAY not have gone down because of the mediocre player's reasons you and Mark think...Now if you guys ever want to teach me how NOT to think this way so I can get good enough to respect your true ranges and fold this puppy, I'm game!Happy fishing in other waters besides mine,TP

[KevinFKHS 0]

The guy shoves 1200 into a 800 dollar pot on the turn with the only draws possible being a back door flush draw and back door gut shot. So in the first hand of the match, we are suppose to believe that he flops two pair+, then hopes we turn a pair of aces so he can call his overbet on turn. Doesnt really make much sence.

Unless he thinks exactly one level ahead of you...then you're pretty much dead!

[SpeedKills 0]

sighi cant even describe this day. this was from yesterday till now, 2am. I played this guy that I've played a few times now and always beaten and he beat me this time. He did the stupidest shit it would cause me to sometimes f up myself. Speed kills watched a lot of the sesh (luckily he didn't see me ship T hi into his set) but man o my. So many times I had this guy in so much trouble, whether he was tilting, or his hand, and he always got outta it.Really annoying day but I think I handled it all well.- Jordan

Yea that was one of the craziest matches I have ever seen. The guy was just pulling shit out of his ass. Was funny when he would get tilted and start raising to 60-70 pf. The best one was when he raised 300 and you shipped it on him and he insta folded. You played good, just a cooler of session.

[SpeedKills 0]

Before you thought of it, I was 100% sure this was what you were talking about, but now my super psychic ability can't be showcased.But that's what I always get too. It's clearly the best thing they have.

definately the best thing there. Havent had one of those in a while.

[cubsfan44 0]

BRING IT BIATCHES!!

[Jordan 1]

So, I woke up at 5pm. Officially, my sleep schedule is...awesome!haha.Mike, what's up with your wife...hope she feeling better/nothing serious.Kurt, yes Frisco melt. Unfortunately we had a winter weather warning thing last night and I didn't go. It was so icy...instead I made a vegetarian black bean spicy burger (keturah's a veg head) and they are sooo good. Then I finished w/ a frozen pizza, lulz.Anyways, going bowling tonight w/ some of the people she works with, so we'll see how that goes. I'm anticipating people asking me what I do for a 'living', and I'm wondering if I even wanna say poker. lol- Jordan

[TeeSludge 0]

YOU ARE BLUFFING I CALL!Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 2 playersThe Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterHero (BTN/SB): $200.00BB: $100.00Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN/SB with 6 9 Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $5, Hero calls $2Flop: ($10.00) 6 8 4 (2 players)BB bets $10, Hero calls $10Turn: ($30.00) 8 (2 players)BB bets $30, Hero calls $30River: ($90.00) 9 (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $55, BB calls $55 all inFinal Pot: $200.00Hero shows 6 9 (two pair, Nines and Eights)BB mucks Q J Hero wins $199.50(Rake: $0.50)

[RDog 0]

I'm no expert but I am a mediocre player, so I might be qualified to shed some light on villain's thought process a bit. I'm not saying the following is GOOD PLAY, obv.CONFESSIONS OF A MEDIOCRE PLAYER (IN THIS SITUATION):If I'm the villain, to me it's about more than 15 outs (which we know is not really 15 outs for the various holdings you might have). My thought process would be more along the lines of: "If I'm not willing to go with this flop (TP+NFD) against a good opponent, why am I even in the hand? Especially against a good opponent who may just be getting frisky on a dangerous-looking board."OP, you say you're a nit, but as a marginal player myself, I tend to expand the ranges of people whom I consider better players than me, because it's their ability to get involved with marginal hands (and win from them) that is one of the essential things that MAKES them a better player than me. So the argument Mark makes about understanding the math "for your range" is off IMO, because to this marginal player, your range is wider than it may actually be in reality (or at least to you, which is all that matters).FYI, as a marginal player, I'm willing to take a hand like AKo, flop TP+NFD, and throw myself to the mercy of the poker gods. Especially if I think I can't outplay you over the long haul. When I play tougher, better, more experienced opponents (which isn't often at the microlimits I play), I don't respect raises and thus reraise myself a lot. My thought process is my capable opponents know the advantages of being aggressive and can play marginal hands better than me, so they're probably being frisky/loose. As the one who appears (or actually is) less experienced, then, MY reraises (I hope) tend to be looked at more seriously as "guess what, I'm the one who woke up with the big hand."So the best way for a good (better) player to beat me, a marginal player, is to actually show up with big hands because I'm more likely to pay you off, since I don't "respect" your opening range...for the precise reason that you are a better player. Make sense? Anyway, take comfort that you did this in this situation and just got on the wrong side of the math. But understand this MAY not have gone down because of the mediocre player's reasons you and Mark think...Now if you guys ever want to teach me how NOT to think this way so I can get good enough to respect your true ranges and fold this puppy, I'm game!Happy fishing in other waters besides mine,TP

This is a good post. A couple comments......When someone is good they make moves in pots for sure. But for the most part when they are showing extreme strength against fish and even more so after the action that took place in this hand.......I can guarantee you one thing almost 100%, they have the goods. I know a ton of people think that good players make all their money by making moves on them. For the most part that is in peoples heads. Good players make money by making hands and manipulating villains to get paid when they do.