akishore 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Hero is UTG+1 with K K.BB seemed to be tight at first, but then I saw him open-limp A7o UTG and spew a little postflop (i.e. he can be somewhat aggressive). He also bets his draws but the hand I saw, he just called a raise, but he just had ace-high with a flush draw on the turn. He is definitely not a maniac or a LAG, though. I hadn't seen him checkraise yet.Also, it should be noted that in this game, almost every player was playing pretty loose in the blinds, especially the big blind...., Hero opens, ..., BB calls.(4.5 SB, 2 plrs) Q 6 6BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.Decide not to three-bet since, given the many possibilities of his hand, it seems a bit on the way-ahead/way-behind side. The flush draw kind of sucks but I plan on just calling down, MAYBE raising a non-diamond turn... I'm not sure, what do you all think? I feel that he doesn't get aggressive (in this type of way) with a draw, so that goes agaisnt raising a non-diamond turn.(4 BB, 2 plrs) QBB bets, Hero raises, BB three-bets, Hero folds.The standard "free" showdown raise, and I planned to fold to a three-bet, which I did. Of course it costs me the same to call down like I originally intended, but I figure if he has a flush draw, this is a great chance to protect my hand, and if he has a 6, he might slow down and I will take the free showdown. And I figured he would only three-bet with a Q, and that also makes sense given the flop checkraise, so I would fold to a three-bet.When I post these hands, this junk seems really obvoius to me. But there is a reason I isolated this hand while reviewing my play, because I was unsure during the hand and while reviewing it, so also consider this a check-up.AseemP.S. I also have some serious-*** trouble with this raise if villian just calls and then bets out on the river... if it's a diamond river I fold, but all other rivers are tough... on the one hand, I raised on the turn w/ intent of folding to a river bet (part of the idea of a "free showdown" raise), so if I don't intend to follow through with this, I shouldn't have raised the turn (unless I did it for value and protection, but BB isn't loose and fishy *enough* to raise the turn for value, so that means I should call the turn???), but on the other hand, a non-diamond river rarely changes the strength of anybody's hand, so why should I fold? Well because in my experience that line usually means villian has a 6-x. But... agh, I hate those situations... any thoughts?P.S.S. Sorry for the repeated run-ons that are probably hard to read... =D Link to post Share on other sites
GamblinLeaf 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Would the hand play more easily if you 3-bet the flop? (I'm wondering, not stating.)If you 3-bet the flop and he caps and leads the turn, you can pretty easily fold.If you 3-bet the flop and he just calls, then a) he leads the turn and you can fold, or B) he checks the turn and you have a choice between betting and folding to a check raise or checking behind.Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,759 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Here's my question. Why raise the turn?You are throwing away 2 big bets by raising anyway, why not just call down like you planned? It costs the same but will get you more information on his play.btw, I would guess he had a queen. But it costs the same to actually find out, and then you don't have to question yourself. Use the new info you gain for the next hand. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Here's my question. Why raise the turn?You are throwing away 2 big bets by raising anyway, why not just call down like you planned? It costs the same but will get you more information on his play.btw, I would guess he had a queen. But it costs the same to actually find out, and then you don't have to question yourself. Use the new info you gain for the next hand.the raise/fold line here is not bad:when he's behind (either to a 6 or Q):- his opponent might fold a 6 (unlikely)- charges his opponent if he was drawing- opponent may well fold a flush draw (yay!)- it only costs us the likelihood we'd river him, which is only two outsall that depends on us NEVER getting bluffed there, which we almost never are.the key is that he may fold a flush draw, since there are almost no negatives.on this hand, i nearly always 3-bet the flop, and call down to a cap. if he's decent he may well raise/call the flop, then check/raise the turn. i still don't fold, but it sure sucks. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Here's my question. Why raise the turn?You are throwing away 2 big bets by raising anyway, why not just call down like you planned? It costs the same but will get you more information on his play.I have never understood why people raise the turn and are going to fold to a 3-bet in a situation like this. I know there's a time for it, but this isn't it. If you have a hand that can win and you're willing to invest 2 more BBs after the turn card falls, spend one on each street, get the showdown and give yourself a chance to win the pot and/or gain information.The result of your raise on the turn has not only enabled your opponent to move you off of the pot, but you still do not know what hand he had.If he had a draw, you don't want him folding anyway. He's likely going to bet both streets and therefore you'll collect more bets when he misses.I honestly think that you played it fine until the turn. I like waiting til the turn to pop him after he check raised you. Once the Q falls, you're either gonna call down or fold to his bet. I don't like the line that you took becuase you invested enough to see a showdown and possibly win the hand, but you invested at the wrong time. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 The result of your raise on the turn has not only enabled your opponent to move you off of the pot, but you still do not know what hand he had.Pretty sure we know what he has.I can think of 4 things that raise this flop:1 - Flush draw - we are ahead2 - 6 - behind3 - Q - behind4 - Air - we are aheadObv, combos of flush draws are greater than either of the 4 6/Q's remaining.I don't hate the turn raise here to charge the FD's or the Ace highs who will call down a lot.It's VERY VERY rare that we are 3-bet by a worse hand, and if we are behind, we have AT THE MOST 4 outs (vs a 6), and usually 2 vs the queen. We really aren't costing ourselves anything here by not seeing the river. His hand is pretty clear once he 3-bets here, it's almost always a Q. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Pretty sure we know what he has.I can think of 4 things that raise this flop:1 - Flush draw - we are ahead2 - 6 - behind3 - Q - behind4 - Air - we are aheadObv, combos of flush draws are greater than either of the 4 6/Q's remaining.I don't hate the turn raise here to charge the FD's or the Ace highs who will call down a lot.It's VERY VERY rare that we are 3-bet by a worse hand, and if we are behind, we have AT THE MOST 4 outs (vs a 6), and usually 2 vs the queen. We really aren't costing ourselves anything here by not seeing the river. His hand is pretty clear once he 3-bets here, it's almost always a Q.I know that we basically "know" what he has, seeing as it's unlikely that he'll 3 bet with an A or flush draw.My point was just that, if we're gonna pay 2 bets, we don't want the A high or the flush draw to fold. We want them to bet the hand and we will invest our 2 bets to see the river and see exactly what they have.I know we're most likely beaten, but doesn't it make more sense to spend 2 bets and see a showdown instead of spending 2 bets and see nothing? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Ya, I agree with your points.Since the board is double paired, I have no problem with just calling down here, as folding flush draws and A-high hands probably costs us value if they would have led the river. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Ya, I agree with your points.Since the board is double paired, I have no problem with just calling down here, as folding flush draws and A-high hands probably costs us value if they would have led the river.acid makes some good points, though i do think we want the flush draw to fold. by calling the turn, we're declaring that we're calling the river, so a lot of flush draws won't lead into us.also, if we can occasionally get a flush draw to fold the turn that's pretty valuable.not sure if we fold ace-high much there, so we only occasionally lose out on a bet from them. if we were to do a strict equity calculation, i think that the pot is big enough that even occasionally folding flush draws makes up for the small costs elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............hi Aseem.I think a lot of you all are discounting a bluff here, or pp between QQ-66.We did not play the flop at all like we had a Q.We don't need to fold often, for villain to risk the turn 3-bet.THis is a decent board for 88-JJ Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I know that we basically "know" what he has, seeing as it's unlikely that he'll 3 bet with an A or flush draw.My point was just that, if we're gonna pay 2 bets, we don't want the A high or the flush draw to fold. We want them to bet the hand and we will invest our 2 bets to see the river and see exactly what they have.I know we're most likely beaten, but doesn't it make more sense to spend 2 bets and see a showdown instead of spending 2 bets and see nothing?a flush draw folding that turn is huge as they have the odds to draw considering your hand.We did not play the flop at all like we had a Q.i think this might be a very important fact to consider. a good player might see this and realize what you have and what you are doing. then again this depends on you, i could have aq on that turn. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Hmm...I did forget to factor in the PP range above.I'm still torn. I still can't believe someone like this, who is NOT described as a maniac or a lag will 3-bet here with a PP.I do suppose, if he is solid/tricky enough to realize that we don't have a Q here very often.I don't know, given that we raised from UTG+1, I'm more inclined to give the villain credit for a hand when he 3-bets. I really think he'd be more likely to call down if you raise, even with a PP. Link to post Share on other sites
akishore 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 No time, gotta run, but quick thoughts.- villian folding a flush draw is monstrous. and ace high is fine, too, pot is big and we wouldn't be charging them to draw if we just called.- i am almost never ever three-bet by a worse hand here. a pocket pair is a good thought by actuary but he's not a maniac and i'm pretty sure he doesn't do that.- y'all think i didn't rep the Q on the flop but i think i did okay... i called his checkraise and raised the turn, this seems like a pretty standard line with AQ, and i would in fact play AQ the same way.- again, going to showdown is overrated. just push your EV. if i'm behind to a Q/6, i'm way behind, and i cost myself the same as to get to showdown, but when i'm ahead, i charge him to draw and put in more money when i'm ahead.- btw, i don't like three-betting this flop when it's pretty wa/wb esp given that he is a somewhat loose player (extra so in the blinds). if the 6's were 2's i think three-betting becomes better, whereas 6's being 8's or 9's, for example, makes it a ton worse, so it's close.aseemp.s. to those who don't like the turn raise/fold... how would you play the whole hand differently? Link to post Share on other sites
Knight_Owl 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I've read your oct. 31st blog and reviewed the hands. And it seems like you always try to justify a bad call/raise with some excuse. Even though its obvious your beat!Its not the cards. Its how you play them.btw that A-Ks hand. was ugly! Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 - i am almost never ever three-bet by a worse hand here. a pocket pair is a good thought by actuary he called me by name!ok, yeah, some would 3-bet the flop, sometimes I wait for the turn, too.But, would you pop THAT turn with the Q ?Wouldn't you wait to raise the river?Most all your plays Aseem seem very read based.If he never 3-bets with a worse hand, then, of course, you made a good foldIt's a bad raise vs a PP though, assuming he's bet/folding thoseI think PP fit his flop c/r and turn lead better than a FDWhat I'm getting at here is, when he c/r the flop and leads the turn, why don't you fold? Because he might c/r a FD or Ace High or 88-TT ? Ok, then why do you fold when he 3-bets? Because he never 3-bets w/o at least a 6 here ? He doesn't know your read on him to ever 3-bet a pp here ? As I say a lot to you, you can customize your reads all you want to fit your play. But, imo, it's to narrow here. He's aggressive enough to c/r a FD and lead a FD on that turn...but not 3 bet a pp or FD for that matter ??? Link to post Share on other sites
DrZebra 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 No time, gotta run, but quick thoughts.- villian folding a flush draw is monstrous. and ace high is fine, too, pot is big and we wouldn't be charging them to draw if we just called.- i am almost never ever three-bet by a worse hand here. a pocket pair is a good thought by actuary but he's not a maniac and i'm pretty sure he doesn't do that.- y'all think i didn't rep the Q on the flop but i think i did okay... i called his checkraise and raised the turn, this seems like a pretty standard line with AQ, and i would in fact play AQ the same way.- again, going to showdown is overrated. just push your EV. if i'm behind to a Q/6, i'm way behind, and i cost myself the same as to get to showdown, but when i'm ahead, i charge him to draw and put in more money when i'm ahead.- btw, i don't like three-betting this flop when it's pretty wa/wb esp given that he is a somewhat loose player (extra so in the blinds). if the 6's were 2's i think three-betting becomes better, whereas 6's being 8's or 9's, for example, makes it a ton worse, so it's close.aseemp.s. to those who don't like the turn raise/fold... how would you play the whole hand differently? - you bet because your opponents are loose. they will certainly call with tons of **** you beat, including as bad as ace high, a pocket pair that never hit a set, a 9x, etc.- you bet because like SSHE says, you should bet marginal hands oop against loose/passive opponents, because if you check, they will usually only bet when you're beat and they will check their worst hands that they would have called a bet with.- getting to showdown is way overrated. my hand is way marginal, i don't really care about getting to showdown if i know i'm beat. on the other hand, if it's the best hand, i don't want to get to showdown without getting the value on the river of him calling a bet.you outlined these reasons for the b/f in hand #2, but they don't seem to apply in this hand.1. What is villain calling with you have beat?2. Villain is likely to bet with worse hand.3. Getting to showdown here IS valuable.My line would be to 3-bet the flop. If he caps, I can fold the turn when that horrible card comes. If he calls, I get to that showdown as cheap as possible after that horrible card comes.(btw, you're only getting a free showdown against a hand you beat.)(what do you do if he calls and donk bets the river?) Link to post Share on other sites
Knight_Owl 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I've read your oct. 31st blog and reviewed the hands. And it seems like you always try to justify a bad call/raise with some excuse. Even though its obvious your beat!Its not the cards. Its how you play them.btw that A-Ks hand. was ugly! Also your the same guy that folds K-J o on the bb, yet on yoru 30/60 session you Raise UTG +1 w/ K-Jo Joke!Like I stated before, you have some excuse for every mistake and try to justify it since you have this mean o Ego about your game. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 dorky stuffAseem may be a lot of things; but he's our Aseem.You step off Knight Owlknow your roll. Link to post Share on other sites
Knight_Owl 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Aseem may be a lot of things; but he's our Aseem.You step off Knight Owlknow your roll.I just tell it like it is read his blog, he wants ppl to be "brutally honest" Now I DELIVERED IT! Link to post Share on other sites
DrZebra 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Aseem may be a lot of things; but he's our Aseem.You step off Knight Owlknow your roll.I started reading Knight Owl's posted topics looking for an appropriate burn, but they're so goddamn boring I had to give up. Link to post Share on other sites
Knight_Owl 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I started reading Knight Owl's posted topics looking for an appropriate burn, but they're so goddamn boring I had to give up.that picture of a Donkey fits you perfectly. Link to post Share on other sites
DrZebra 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 that picture of a Donkey fits you perfectly. So many boring polls:"By a show of hands, how many of you have been losing with AQ ?I just want to feel better about my last week's play..."-Knight Owletcetcetc... Link to post Share on other sites
Knight_Owl 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 So many boring polls:"By a show of hands, how many of you have been losing with AQ ?I just want to feel better about my last week's play..."-Knight Owletcetcetc...creepy... so Im being stalked on FCP.And yes indeed. legitimate question. And that poll has improved my game. Isn't what FCP is all about? apparently not to you.(I look forward to your childish reply) always enertaining. Link to post Share on other sites
DrZebra 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 this face looks car-sick more than winking, haha. Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............hi Aseem.I think a lot of you all are discounting a bluff here, or pp between QQ-66.We did not play the flop at all like we had a Q.We don't need to fold often, for villain to risk the turn 3-bet.THis is a decent board for 88-JJActuary's point is solid.With JJ-77, I play this hand exactly how BB plays it.Like BB, I 3bet the turn for value.My play with KK:I call the flop with the sole intention of raising the turn.But the Q was a horrible card for us.And it is one of the few cards that I do not raise against.I call down from there on.In my game, showdown will be seen.--CM Link to post Share on other sites
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