debate: not raising aa/kk preflop in nlhe

[Devilkin 0]

Yesterday evening, I got caught in a niftly little trap in an MTT NL tourney.Im on the button, dealt AQs. Chipstack is about 1250, low on the table is about 800. Two limpers in front of me, I raise from 50 to 100. Two callers.Flop is Q62 rainbow. I bet 200, limper 1 calls, limper 2 goes all in for about 900!I ponder this for a sec, thinking of possible trips, but these two had been playing very loose thus far. I call.Caller one had KK, caller two - AA. No hands improved - AA took my chips. Now remember, this is NLHE. I was so 'ingrained' by someone declaring their hand strength with AA/KK by raising, I never even considered these as options when the all in was called.What are people's thoughts on setting a trap like this, especially holding AA/KK in early position? I understand the risk of allowing drawing hands, or other rag type hands in the pot, but does the strength of KK/AA give you enough strength to allow a flop to be seen before deciding on an all in?Id especially like to hear thoughts from people with significant S&G/MTT tourney experience.Dev

[screech 0]

I had the same type of thing happen to me the other day in a sit n go.It was fairly early in the tournament and I was on the button wih AhQh. I had ~1400 chips. Blinds were 25/50. EP and MP call. I make it 150 to go. SB folds, BB puts in last 200. EP calls again, MP folds, I call another 100.Pot is 825.Flop comes Q-x-x rainbow.EP checks, I bet 400, EP calls.Next card is a rag.EP checks, I bet 500, and then get reraised another 350 for all my chips. I figure I'm up against a set, but with only 350 I call in hopes of outdrawing him.Much to my surprise, he turns up KK, which gives me a few more outs.I miss on the river and try to figure out why he would play KK in such a way.Even though he played it very deceptively, and managed to draw out the maximum amount of chips from me, I feel it's a pretty stupid play in the long run. He was fortunate that only three players saw the flop at a table that did not seem to be very aggressive. If an ace hit the flop, it would have put him in a very difficult position. And, if I never flopped TPTK on an uncoordinated board, his play would have never worked.With KK, I think this play is just horrible.With AA, this play is a bit better, especially if you are sure there will be a raise behind you. At a passive table, I think it is still better to raise EP with AA.

[Devilkin 0]

With KK, I think this play is just horrible.With AA, this play is a bit better, especially if you are sure there will be a raise behind you. At a passive table, I think it is still better to raise EP with AA.

I agree with KK this is a very risky, especially if not raising allows Axo in the pot, and an A spikes.But when you hold AA early, and lets say you get 5 callers. Flop comes the desired Q92 rainbow, and you are first to bet, being in early position. You then either bet very big, or go all in. Wouldn't you rather have 5 callers in the pot, with one TPTK or draw hand willing to gamble against you? Yes, odds are in your favour, and yes, from time to time they will hit their draw and crack your AA, but in the long run, is this +EV?Dev

[Royal_Tour 0]

Slow playing high pockets is very stupid., These two guys obviously think they were very trickey.. and ace ace, was very lucky that the board didnt have any flush draws or straight draws.I think you were just unlucky to a couple bad players

[Devilkin 0]

Slow playing high pockets is very stupid., These two guys obviously think they were very trickey.. and ace ace, was very lucky that the board didnt have any flush draws or straight draws.I think you were just unlucky to a couple bad players

I know that the standard concept is raise AA preflop - Im not really arguing that this is a bad play. Think of me playing Devils Advocate (pun intended). Im trying to understand the underlying concept of why - understanding a concept is more important to me that just doing it because 'thats the way its done'.Dev

[JaysonWeber 0]

Never slowplay AA or KK in a fullring game...I dont care the circumstances... Its not +EV.

[Smasharoo 0]

About the only thing stuipder than slowplaying AA there is calling an all in there with TPTK.

[THE ACE IS BACK 0]

My most recent experience with someone slow playing KK, I was in a 10+1 sit N go. I usually play limit poker but i thought I would sit in a tourny to get my day going. Anyways, I have pocket 6's and limp I believe from middle position (this was about a week ago), there is the big blind, myself and two other limpers. The flop comes 6, K, Q. The SB ckecks I put in a nice sizes bet and get one caller. The turn is a Q giving me 6's full of Q's. I bet again and the other guy goes all in, so I call and he flips over pocket K's. He had flopped a better set then me and made his house on the turn just like me, but obviously he had Kings full of queens. Right now I'm thinking F U C K. I hadn't put him on pocket Kings. But we're both all in... The river a beautiful 6... giving me four of a kind.. I went on to win that sit N Go.. Sometimes a little luck is in order.

[Devilkin 0]

About the only thing stuipder than slowplaying AA there is calling an all in there with TPTK

Thanks for checking in guys, but Im still no closer to understanding why. I know common thought is that its not +EV, but Im struggling with coming to terms as to why. I hate doing things 'because the experts say so' (and I do consider Jason and Smash as expert advice on this forum).Dev

[Smasharoo 0]

I know common thought is that its not +EV,What are we talking about, slowplaying AA or calling an all in with TPTK when there's nothing in the pot?

[Devilkin 0]

What are we talking about, slowplaying AA or calling an all in with TPTK when there's nothing in the pot?

Slowplaying AA - Ill fully admit that calling with TPTK was a horrible call. I chalk it up as a learning experience, and Im trying to reconcile a very successful play with AA (nailed both me and KK with an all in), and whether this was just a luck thing, or if this is a successful play. And most importantly, if its not, why not?Blame it on the academic environment I come from - take a topic, take a stance and debate it to death - then see what comes out of it.Dev

[BilliardsBoy 0]

Slow playing KK or AA is only a good idea possibly at a very aggressive table. Other than that, I would never do it. You will rarely win a big pot that way, and more often than not a sub-par hand will catch against you and take most of your chips.

[Smasharoo 0]

I chalk it up as a learning experience, and Im trying to reconcile a very successful play with AA (nailed both me and KK with an all in), and whether this was just a luck thing, or if this is a successful play. And most importantly, if its not, why not? Visability.NL is largely about visability, that is, knowing with a fair amount of certainty when you're ahead and when you're behind. If you flop quads, you have high visability that you're ahead, if you have AK and the flop is 444 you may still be ahead much of the time, but your visability is lessened.Slowplaying AA leads to many situations where you have virtually no visability. It's great if you flop a set, but if not, you end up having to make a lot of plays where you really have no idea if you're way ahead or crushed and drawing to two outs.Let me quickly add, that if you're playing on a table with lots of pre-flop raising, limp-reraising it, which occasionally goes bad and leads to limping in with it is another thing entirely. Shit happens. Intentionally limping to a flop with it is just moronic.

[jayistheman 0]

slowplaying AA and KK sinks chipsit is only a good play when people are overplaying top pair.... and you can see their cards to know they have top pair.these people slowplayed their hands, but i'm willing to guess that they would never fold.... if you are gonna slow down with AA and KK successfully, you will end up folding it over 60% of the time.

[Devilkin 0]

Slow playing KK or AA is only a good idea possibly at a very aggressive table. Other than that, I would never do it. You will rarely win a big pot that way, and more often than not a sub-par hand will catch against you and take most of your chips.

Ok good so first thought here is that against a very agressive table, AA slowplay may be +EV. Thats a start - thanks.I guess Im hoping for a little more 'technical' support of the argument against AA slowplay in NL. Ill throw out a start and hopefully someone can take over.Using cardplayer.com's HE Odds calculator, AA vs two hands with a rags flop (Q82 rainbow) are (Im using 'loose' calling hands since there were no raises):AA - 85.1%A3s - 6.8%66 - 8.2%Obviously you are in an excellent shape, but not likely to make much, since the best hand, outside of yours, is 66.Lets expand this to five good but not great hands. Preflop odds:AA - 54.2A10s - 9.5KQo - 7.399 - 17.1KJs - 11.9AA is now still the favourite to win, but the odds have dropped from 85% to 55%. Same rags flop (Q82 rainbow), odds become:AA - 64.6A10s - 5.7KQo - 14.899 - 8.8KJs - 6.1A large raise by AA will probably knock out everyone, except perhaps KQo and 99 (again assuming loose players). Wouldn't it be +EV in this situation to have two callers of a large bet, since you are about 65% to win the hand?Dev

[JaysonWeber 0]

sure you might be profitable in those sitautions... But how are you going to be able to put these people on randoms?Try it for... 45Suited / 88 / QQ / 10J suited And check your results... the point is, if I'm dealt AA 100 times.. I might slowplay it once... and I'll probobly kick myself afterwords.

[Smasharoo 0]

Wouldn't it be +EV in this situation to have two callers of a large bet, since you are about 65% to win the hand? Sure.It'd be a pretty easy game if you got to see all the cards. When your reads are good enough that you know what all the cards are, you can start limping in with AA.

[Matdrat 0]

You have a big stack and your opponents are agressive and/or calling stations. Some players will call a big raise with large suited connectors. Let say you are in an early position and you represent a strong AA/KK. A late position calls you with JTs because he is shortstacked hoping to catch straight draw, flush draw, two pairs or maybe luck out with a set. The flop goes in his favor and your AA has pretty much crippled you. Okay, so the pre-flop percentage is in your favor but it's not a lock. Bad beats happen all the time in NLHE. By slow playing AA, you have the option of folding and defending your chip lead and live to fight another hand.

[Briguy 0]

About the only thing stuipder than slowplaying AA there is calling an all in there with TPTK.

As I can, sadly, attest.

[Matdrat 0]

Doyle Brunson once said the AA can either win you a small hand or lose you a big one.

[21gambit 0]

Dan Harrington states that you should slow play big pocket pairs 1/5th of the time....I think I will defer to the advice of this poker great.... The logic behind it is that if you dont limp with them some of the time, then when you do try to limp in people will know that they can push you around...You obviously dont have one of the top hands, thus, why not try to run you over? The reason most people wont do it, or cant stand to do it is that they have problems laying it down. When you raise pre-flop you are basically telling them(the players at the table), I have something strong here, and giving them info, thus letting them know you probably have a big pocket pair, when they come back at you after the flop with a big re-raise or check raise, you feel like you can then lay it down, because obviously the guy can beat aces...Its a sort of complicit agreement between players. When you dont raise with aces, I guess your fear is that when you come over the top of someone else's flop bet you are concerned that you wont know if you should fold if they come back over the top of you. Would they go all in with TPTK? It makes you think more, and definitely makes the game harder for you, but it gives your opponents less info about you and makes it harder for them to play against you. Its a trade off but I think that giving your opponents less info about your game is better than making your decisions easier... Just my opinionNow, I dont you should limp with them if everyone at the table likes to see the flop, a huge field is bad. If that is the case, raising is a must. In most competitve tournies though, the players are a bit more selective and sophisticated so you dont have many seeing a flop at once, which is all the more reason to limp and trap someone. You opportunities to gain chips is limited since less people see flops, so you must capitalize on your big hands.

[jayistheman 0]

Dan Harrington states that you should slow play big pocket pairs 1/5th of the time....I think I will defer to the advice of this poker great....

its good advice when you can read a player as well as he can... most can't

[Awful 0]

Dan Harrington states that you should slow play big pocket pairs 1/5th of the time....I think I will defer to the advice of this poker great....

Opponent dependent. He's playing slow-blind live tourneys with observant opponents. The limp is for the sake of future hands. Before he even mentions that he'll limp them a portion of the time, he specifies that that's for big live tourneys, he says he'll always raise them online.Reread where he discusses small-stakes online tourneys, and the section you pulled that nugget of misunderstanding from. Short blind rounds+constant player shuffling+frequent player busting=play your big pairs fast.

[Devilkin 0]

Try it for... 45Suited / 88 / QQ / 10J suited And check your results... the point is, if I'm dealt AA 100 times.. I might slowplay it once... and I'll probobly kick myself afterwords.

Good Jason this is helpful = here are the results preflop:AA - 39.845s - 17.688 - 13.7QQ - 13.810Js - 15.1Rags flop (J92 rainbow) - I changed it from Q92 rags since I wanted to demonstrate how AA compares to drawing hands, not superior made hands.Odd become - AA - 54.945s - 4.988 - 8.8QQ - 8.910Js - 21.7So again, with a strong bet, I can hope to have calls from 10Js and QQ in a loose table - off chance 88 may struggle in.Again, the purpose of this is to demonstrate how well AA works against drawing hands with a rags flop. A coordinate flop is very dangerous with drawing hands, but rags, its very strong and a strong bet can force out the drawing hands that need runner runner to hit.Ok Jason (or anyone else), now using these numbers, why wouldn't I try an AA slowplay?Dev

[Devilkin 0]

It'd be a pretty easy game if you got to see all the cards. When your reads are good enough that you know what all the cards are, you can start limping in with AA.

Fair comment - so lets assume THE BEST opposition - super tight, super agressive.Give me four other hands that top pros would limp in with that will give AA a good run with rags flop, and we will look at the numbers.Dev