horse at wsop and advisory panel formed

[Big Mike Watters 0]

I dunno about this at all. It reeks of the PPT, which just died out(almost...we'll see) with barely a whimper. If they do this tourney...I think Harrah's should sponsor it....but it should NOT be a bracelet event.50K is alot of money. I know that it will keep "Joe PokerNovice" out of it mostly...but I have NEVER thought that to be of any consequence...when it comes right down to it. A pro player should be able to dominate no matter what. If they lose...well...there IS luck in the game.

"If luck weren't involved...I guess I'd win every one."

Someone said that once... But I'll be damned if that doesn't ring true for alot of players...they just censor themselves on camera.I'd bet that, in the world, there are 2500 players that could be considered "game" for a big tourney. 2500 players that make their living off poker in some form, and do it well...well enough to pay bills and such. What if all 2500 world class players showed up for the Main Event...and it was capped at that. Nothing but these players. Would people feel the same about their chances? Probably not...they would PRAY for the fish to come back.During Raymer's year...there was a newbie explosion and definately it showed by all the first timers winning events...guys like Gerry Drehobl and the like. But last year...the pros fired back, and showed once again that a pro is a pro for a reason. They adjusted the game(or didn't...varience is a b**ch for fish as well), and defeated the insurgency of flush chasers and two out catchers. THAT...is why I personally feel last years WSOP could be considered one of the best.Bringing back HORSE is awesome, and a great move...but the 50K buy in screams "pro's only", and that is NOT what the World Series of Poker should be, IMHO. They advertise the WSOP as the chance for anyone to become a "World Champion"...this to me goes against that. 25K for the Main Event, and 10K events in NLHE, Omaha, O8B, Stud, Stud H/L and a mixed game(HORSE or SHOE), and the rest of the schedule would work great.It would be hilarious if 2500 bought in for this event. LOL...would the pros complain then?But I'm just some schmoe on a message board.

[leebs12 0]

You people spewing about how it shouldnt be a bracelet event are either really stupid, or really ignorant. The reasoning is because the skilless donkeys have taken over the WSOP, ans harrahs has only helped that by adding cheaper buy in events then before. This 50k turney doesnt go far enough in preserving the integrety of the game. It keeps good players playing in events. It will be harder to satellite i nto it therefore the lucky donks will have a harder time gaining entry. This is a start, but harrahs needs to fix the WSOP to preserve itws status as the WORLD SERIES. There are no minor league players in the MLB's world series, why should minor league players be in the WSOP?

[meijin 0]

leebs12:While I agree with alot of your sentiment, I disagree with how you try to make an example.There are no minor league players in the MLB world series because it is not open to them. Were MLB to say that, for a price, a minor league player could buy his way in so that he could showcase his talents and get a percentage of the money paid to the players...don't you think they would all be falling over themselves to do so? Of course they would...and in the WSOP it is open to everyone who can plunk down the required amount of cash to play.However, to say that a $50K buy-in HORSE or HOSE or any other multi-game tournament should not be a bracelet event is silly. Every poker web site will be running 24x7 satellites and will stick more than their fair share of fish (and a few good players as well) into the event. As many as the 410K main event? No...the buy-in is higher...so that will have an effect on it.As for me personally, I'd rather watch a smaller group of more talented players play than 5,000+ less talented players. I know enough about the game that I don't need a one and a half hit wonder like Chris Moneymaker to know that anyone can win.Michael

[mx957 0]

You people spewing about how it shouldnt be a bracelet event are either really stupid, or really ignorant. The reasoning is because the skilless donkeys have taken over the WSOP, ans harrahs has only helped that by adding cheaper buy in events then before. This 50k turney doesnt go far enough in preserving the integrety of the game. It keeps good players playing in events. It will be harder to satellite i nto it therefore the lucky donks will have a harder time gaining entry. This is a start, but harrahs needs to fix the WSOP to preserve itws status as the WORLD SERIES. There are no minor league players in the MLB's world series, why should minor league players be in the WSOP?

Oopppssss MLB is a professional League. Let's try and compare the WSOP to the US Open Golf. Again the whole idea was to allow any person with the skills a chance to compete. So don't compare MLB or the NFL to this event. It doesn't compare at all. Now that being said should they allow any donkey with 10k or more a seat, that's debatable. If you can figure out a good qualification method then we can cut down the field from 5600+ to some more managable size. But again, these qualification procedures would need to allow anyone the chance to at least give it a shot.The US Open Golf Championship holds regional and sectional qualifiers. Golfers compete for the chance to move on to ultimately compete. Pro's are given a certain number of exempt slots based on prior results, and those pro's and amatuers alike are able to compete for the remaining "OPEN" slots.With pokers "Luck" factor, it makes the qualification process extremely more complex.

[leebs12 0]

You people spewing about how it shouldnt be a bracelet event are either really stupid, or really ignorant. The reasoning is because the skilless donkeys have taken over the WSOP, ans harrahs has only helped that by adding cheaper buy in events then before. This 50k turney doesnt go far enough in preserving the integrety of the game. It keeps good players playing in events. It will be harder to satellite i nto it therefore the lucky donks will have a harder time gaining entry. This is a start, but harrahs needs to fix the WSOP to preserve itws status as the WORLD SERIES. There are no minor league players in the MLB's world series, why should minor league players be in the WSOP?

Oopppssss MLB is a professional League. Let's try and compare the WSOP to the US Open Golf. Again the whole idea was to allow any person with the skills a chance to compete. So don't compare MLB or the NFL to this event. It doesn't compare at all. Now that being said should they allow any donkey with 10k or more a seat, that's debatable. If you can figure out a good qualification method then we can cut down the field from 5600+ to some more managable size. But again, these qualification procedures would need to allow anyone the chance to at least give it a shot.The US Open Golf Championship holds regional and sectional qualifiers. Golfers compete for the chance to move on to ultimately compete. Pro's are given a certain number of exempt slots based on prior results, and those pro's and amatuers alike are able to compete for the remaining "OPEN" slots.With pokers "Luck" factor, it makes the qualification process extremely more complex.

raise the buy in.

[meijin 0]

mx957:And golf is, as far as I know, legal in all states...so it is not an issue to hold multiple regional and sectional qualifiers. With poker, there are but a few locations you could do this...a more complicated situation. But I agree with your point.

[dreamcrusher28 0]

Does anyone know have a general idea of how they set up the structure of the HORSE or SHOE tourneys?After rummaging through my contacts, I finally found a handful of players who play other things beside NLH live, and I'm trying to set up a SHOE or HORSE home game, to go with my normal NL game.Since the players I found aren't very experienced in other games, I think a tournament style game would be best, since they probably won't be reloading too often if I made it a cash game.

What type of buy in we talking here???If reasonable, are ya looking for any players???

[meijin 0]

Raising the buy-in would only serve to limit a very few number of players to the WSOP in general and the ME in particular. Pokerstars by itself accounted for slightly more than 20% of the 5,600 or so people that played (over 1,100). So, of the 5,600 there, how many do you think got there through Pokerstars, UltimateBet and PartyPoker? Not to mention all of the other sites? They could raise the entry fee to $100,000 and the online sites would still be sending a vast number of people there. They would just have to start the process earlier in the year and I bet they could send even more people as the record amount of the payout would draw even more people who want to, essentially, freeroll into it.

[Big Mike Watters 0]

My head is all over about this...so I apologize for the mixing up of your quotes, leebs12...

There are no minor league players in the MLB's world series, why should minor league players be in the WSOP?

There is no comparison here. Poker is not a league. The World Series of Poker is not a league. Even the World Poker Tour is not a league...although they'd like it to be. They tried the PPT, and we have yet to see the fruits of that labor.

This 50k turney doesnt go far enough in preserving the integrety of the game.

How does shutting out money preserve integrity? Pros LOVE donkeys! Ask one! They want that dead money in there! The World Series of Poker was designed so that someone with 10K and a dream can play with the big boys and become a champion. Harrah's is setting a precident here towards a Pro Tour...and if that is the case...then so be it. But don't mince about saying you're not. 50K is TOO MUCH MONEY. Make it 10K. Is there going to be a 5K or 2.5K HORSE event? It was made that much because Harrah's caved to pressure from top pros, like DN(I love ya Daniel...you're the best...but its how I feel), who seem to think that playing only with top players and big bankrolls is the mark of a WSOP champion. I simply don't see it that way.And let's be frank here...if you are in the WSOP...whether you bought in, or won a seat online or at a B&M room...you know something about poker. You are NOT ignorant. You are not the penny table player on PokerStars. I know someone is gonna come in here and claim otherwise....I played last year...the play was so terrible...blah blah blah...I claim BS. Alot of poker had to be played, and played reasonably well if you won a seat, and if you are willing to plunk down 10K plus fees and hotel and food expenses to play in a multi day tourney(imagine playing in Day One next year and having to foot a hotel for 3 more days until you play again if you survive)...if you paid that money...you are confident that you have SOME chance at cashing or winning. NOBODY...or very few people...are that loose with their money, and if they are...well...good for you. You have a donator at your table. People aren't sitting at a free Yahoo! Poker table, playing for a month and going to the WSOP, folks.

It keeps good players playing in events.

If this event was 10K...the pros would still love it. If it was 2K...the pros would love it. MOST pros will not skip the WSOP for anything. Doyle skipped the WSOP because of a personal issue(as I understand it) with the lady who ran Binion's after Benny died. That's different than "WAH!!! There are too many donkeys in the field! I'm not playing for 10 million! WAH!" Give me a break.

This is a start, but harrahs needs to fix the WSOP to preserve itws status as the WORLD SERIES.

No it does not...save maybe boosting up the buy-in of the Main Event a bit...25K like the WPT is. The World Series of Poker is supposed to be an event for anyone around the world to compete with the big boys to see who is the best. You can make an argument that one tourney does not a great poker player make...but that is how I look at the Series. Boosting a buy in that high makes it only available to those with fat bankrolls...and that alone should be the reason it should not be a Bracelet Event.IMHO

[bcook823 0]

To participate in US open golf qualifiers you have to have a handicap under 2. That means you can play. Poker has no such qualification, and never will. The idea that there will be subqualifiers to such poker events is a nice idea, but the participants will be coming from online card rooms. If the online poker rooms feel like the 50k HORSE event will give them exposure only to be outdone by the mainevent, then they will give everyone a chance to qualify. So how many people will play in the first 50k HORSE event? Howard Treesong over on RGP set the over/under at 100. Others think there will be 50 or so.

[mx957 0]

mx957:And golf is, as far as I know, legal in all states...so it is not an issue to hold multiple regional and sectional qualifiers. With poker, there are but a few locations you could do this...a more complicated situation. But I agree with your point.

Yes it's not legal in all states, so that does complicate it. I think Harrah's tried to go in the right direction with it's "WSOP Series" events. With the TOC being the "reward" for good qualification play. But then they screwed that up with the after the buzzer exemptions of Brunson, Chan and Hellmeuth. I have no problem with them being exempted into the field, but it should have been stated before the Series began. Tradition is a hard thing to change. Someone will always complain. Change the buyin, set rules for qualification....all of these things will and should be explored for the future I am sure.

[bcook823 0]

It has been tossed around that you have to let the average joe play against the big name pros. Golf uses this with the US and British Open Championships, and I played golf competively in college, so that really tickels my fancy. However, I stand no chance in the world of beating the top pros. Not on any day not ever. NASCAR says that anyone can bring a team in and compete. The big NASCAR teams have some much exposure to technological advances that it makest this idea moot. If you dont have a ton of money you cant run a NASCAR team. Poker is different. You really can compete and you really can win. It doesn't even have to be in a tournament format. If you have the money, you can sit with any number of pros, any given night, and bang heads with them. The ME at WSOP will be a donk fest for a long long while, even making the buyin 25k wouldn't change that. However, this HORSE event will be different. Even if the buyin were less, and the turnout was greater, the experienced pros will have a huge advantage. Could you donk your way to the 50k HORSE bracelet? I dunno, you would have to be awful lucky.

[jooka 0]

I think in a way its very funny how this whole thing is going down. Few years ago the pros had a 'huge' advantage over the 'dead money' when you heard there interviews and they couldnt be happier! Now, the 'dead money' is to much and ruins the whole 'best of' for pros. I like that there will be a mixed event(and hopefully on TV in that form and not NL) but the 50k part seems a bit much, especially if it will be played during the main event run and then promoted as the 'real best of' becase pros stand less of a chance to win the main event these days and is really a ploy to get major pro names some TV time. because at 50k thats pretty much what your going to get, pros basically buying ESPN TV time.

[bcook823 0]

I think in a way its very funny how this whole thing is going down. Few years ago the pros had a 'huge' advantage over the 'dead money' when you heard there interviews and they couldnt be happier! Now, the 'dead money' is to much and ruins the whole 'best of' for pros. I like that there will be a mixed event(and hopefully on TV in that form and not NL) but the 50k part seems a bit much, especially if it will be played during the main event run and then promoted as the 'real best of' becase pros stand less of a chance to win the main event these days and is really a ploy to get major pro names some TV time. because at 50k thats pretty much what your going to get, pros basically buying ESPN TV time.

They still like the dead money. However, it makes winning the ME, more unlikely for anyone who plays in it. If they had 100 horses run in the Kentucky Derby, then it would be a crap shoot. They have 20 now and the favorites never win (almost never). As for the pros buying TV time. This would be true, if it were not an open event. 50k is a ton of money to me, but to others its nothing.

[jooka 0]

50k on a mixed event is 100x different than a 50k NL event. Id be suprised if over 400 ppl even played.

[bcook823 0]

50k on a mixed event is 100x different than a 50k NL event. Id be suprised if over 400 ppl even played.

well bro, 400 ppl would make a $20,000,000 prize pool. I dont think anyone is suggesting they will get 400 ppl to pony up 50k for the HORSE event.

[bcook823 0]

Are there any online sites that spread a HORSE or even a SHOE game?Michael

Fulltilt has HORSE tournaments often, and they are going to be adding a mixed game as a part of ring games spread all the time.

[bcook823 0]

So who are the favorites in this event?IveyDanielDoyleBarryFischman (he won the last Horse event)thats a real short list, but are there any internet pros that are excellent in all the games?

[meijin 0]

I am sure you can add Chip Reese, Barry Greenstein, Lyle Berman and Jen Harmon to the list...as well as just about anyone who is a regular member of the "Big Game"

[greatwhite 0]

I don't know if this will start a big boom in a HORSE poker format, but I bet there will be satellites for this. However, I doubt more than 200 people will enter this event and there will be alot less "dead money." It would be funny to see a Moneymaker win this event. Imagine if "John Money" who started playing poker 6 months ago won the $50k HORSE.

[Big Mike Watters 0]

If this were a POKER Advisory Committee...I'd say there would be nobody more qualified than the Big Game players.But this is a WSOP Advisory Committee...me thinks a list of tourney pros might be better. Daniel fits, although his recent CardPlayer interview read to me like he was sipping Barry Greenstein's kool aid a bit.I think the choices they made are a nice mix....I wonder who the Wildcard is gonna be?

[bcook823 0]

If this were a POKER Advisory Committee...I'd say there would be nobody more qualified than the Big Game players.But this is a WSOP Advisory Committee...me thinks a list of tourney pros might be better. Daniel fits, although his recent CardPlayer interview read to me like he was sipping Barry Greenstein's kool aid a bit.I think the choices they made are a nice mix....I wonder who the Wildcard is gonna be?

Steve Danneman wouldn't be a bad choice.Barry G is very reasonable, he doesn't make decisons to curry favor with the masses. I'd say he would be someone they should talk with, but he certainly wouldn't qualify for the "average joe" of the group. Not sure Danneman would be willing, or would qualify

[bcook823 0]

I was shocked to see Daniel didn't mention all this in his most recent blog entry.

[FellKnight 0]

Are there any online sites that spread a HORSE or even a SHOE game?Michael

Fulltilt has HORSE tournaments often, and they are going to be adding a mixed game as a part of ring games spread all the time.

Where did you hear this?Fell

[FellKnight 0]

So who are the favorites in this event?IveyDanielDoyleBarryFischman (he won the last Horse event)thats a real short list, but are there any internet pros that are excellent in all the games?

FellKnight ;)Fell