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an alternate approach to aa


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Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with A:club:, A:spade:. 7 folds, Hero calls.Flop: (1.50 SB) 5:heart:, T:diamond:, Q:diamond: (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.Turn: (1.75 BB) J:heart: (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG calls.River: (5.75 BB) 3:heart: (2 players)Hero bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 9.75 BB

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I'm doing an experiment. Everytime I have the black or red aces or kings, I cold-call a raise preflop, and limp UTG or UTG+1 if I'm first in.It's worked pretty well, so far, ESPECIALLY the cold-calling a raise with AA. It's a small sample, but I've been getting lots of value out of sacks on turns when people decide I'm full of it.I wouldn't suggest it to everyone else, but to be honest, hero's line here isn't bad. In a heads/up pot, your opponent's not going anywhere based on the an extra preflop raise, and waiting for the turn's not bad. When I'm in blind battles I do this all the time, or if I'm against an aggressive opponent (or two) I have good control over. I'll slowplay AA or KK and plan on waiting for the turn. It's not uncommonWang

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Dont mind it really. I stay away from open limping and checking with AA but often will factor just call a raise from the CO or button with AA if i'm in the bb and know it will be heads up.If you take out the river action everyone will tell you this looks good.

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i saw a thread entitled "an alternate approach to AA" in the micro-limit forum and puked in my mouth.this is not horrible in a heads-up situation, but i really think you are making a significant mistake not getting aggressive early an often with AA unless your very significant and extreme reads on your opponents.in a heads-up situation, you risk scaring him off early, but you may also miss a lot of value since many people assume you are full of crap in a blind match situation.

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This isn't really a blind situation, UTG raised. I think if I 3 bet here from the BB I don't get discredited because I'm in a blind. He put in a UTG raise and I would be 3 betting that raise, that's strength. I generally always raise AA up preflop as much as I can but this was finally a situation where I could play the hand like this profitably in my opinion. Villain was too loose, but stayed aggressive with continuation bets etc, I think it was okay.

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Just look at the preflop value you're missing...Microlimit hold'em is all about exploiting value. There was a thread in strategy that says something like your net profit with AA will make up a huge portion of your winrate, like 40% or something silly.

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But the question is, is the value of 3 betting preflop and having him likely fold to a bet out if he misses the flop or turn worth it compared to giving him some rope and letting him make bets when he doesn't have a hand?

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Yes. You'll get outdrawn more and you'll overplay AA more on post-flop streets when you're behind by just calling preflop.The value of the 3rd bet preflop isn't the important thing. There are all kinds of reasons to try to make the pot huge at any cost as quickly as possible with AA, in any position.

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I'm doing an experiment. Everytime I have the black or red aces or kings, I cold-call a raise preflop, and limp UTG or UTG+1 if I'm first in.It's worked pretty well, so far, ESPECIALLY the cold-calling a raise with AA. It's a small sample, but I've been getting lots of value out of sacks on turns when people decide I'm full of it.I wouldn't suggest it to everyone else, but to be honest, hero's line here isn't bad. In a heads/up pot, your opponent's not going anywhere based on the an extra preflop raise, and waiting for the turn's not bad. When I'm in blind battles I do this all the time, or if I'm against an aggressive opponent (or two) I have good control over. I'll slowplay AA or KK and plan on waiting for the turn. It's not uncommonWang
I think this is ok on tight tables, where a preflop raise often leads to a wonderful 1.5 SB net win. Once in a while.OP's situation may be a good place to do this preflop, but that flop is one I'd prefer to go a little crazy on. UTG likely has a draw if not a piece of that flop, unless his OOP limping standards include low PPs. I want to collect bets from him if he's got something like KQ or charge him/force him out if he's on a draw with something like KJ.
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Yes. You'll get outdrawn more and you'll overplay AA more on post-flop streets when you're behind by just calling preflop.The value of the 3rd bet preflop isn't the important thing. There are all kinds of reasons to try to make the pot huge at any cost as quickly as possible with AA, in any position.
Saying you will get outdrawn more is a mistake. 3-betting preflop then betting on the flop still wont fold a gutshot draw or a flopped pair or something along those lines. 3-betting would be purely for value not to protect your hand since its already heads up.
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Fair enough.Let's also think about how much value we're GUARANTEED to have.The EV graph in SSHE says AA is like +3.7, KK is like 1.9, and QQ is greater than 1.And on down it goes to 0 from there, where 0 is EV neutral.We are guaranteed to be orders of magnitude ahead of every other hand preflop. By NOT 3-betting here, if I'm noodling it right, we have to make up 3.7 times the small bet purely from the deception value of not raising for just calling to be correct.So just raise, everyone.

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Fair enough.Let's also think about how much value we're GUARANTEED to have.The EV graph in SSHE says AA is like +3.7, KK is like 1.9, and QQ is greater than 1.And on down it goes to 0 from there, where 0 is EV neutral.We are guaranteed to be orders of magnitude ahead of every other hand preflop. By NOT 3-betting here, if I'm noodling it right, we have to make up 3.7 times the small bet purely from the deception value of not raising for just calling to be correct.So just raise, everyone.
Duh, TJ. You can't apply the GENERAL value of AA to this specific hand. If the pot were multiway (which SSHE assumes it is on almost every occassion), then a 3-bet would be very very easy. But here we're H/U. There's nothing we can do to punk him off a draw, as has already been mentioned. If we 3-bet lead, he'll still be getting incorrect odds to chase a gutshot. I don't advocate getting tricky. I just think people need to do a little work on thinking of the occassional hand you might consider playing nonstandardly. Don't just regurgitate SSHE. Think about WHY what Ed Miller says is right. What TJ did in the post I quote is terrible. He looked at a chart and totally misapplied the information held within. There are probably better times to make this play, namely when the PFRaiser is likely to be weak (the UTG player is NOT position aware, or the raise came from MP or LP). But this is absolutely NOT a bad time to wait for the turn. Doing this all the time would be silly. But waiting for the turn with a hand that is NOT very vulnerable to draws isn't dangerous, and often gets lots of value out of weakish hands. Wang
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To me, the importance of varying play is overruled by the weight of the importance of playing AA correctly.Occam's Razor cuts you to ribbons, especially at Ultimate Bet's 1/2. Six months into grinding the 80/160 at the Mirage, maybe. But at UB 1/2, I'd guarantee you'll make more money always raising every time over any large sample.My misapplication of charts serves the greater good. Always raise AA. The ends justify the means. You can't handle the truth.lol i'm in one of my moods again... wheeeeeee...

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My misapplication of charts serves the greater good.  Always raise AA.  The ends justify the means.  You can't handle the truth.
Fine, I'll change... you don't understand what the chart's trying to say.I'll never complain when someone 3-bets AA from the BB and leads any flop.But waiting for the turn HU is a perfectly acceptable way to play the hand.I wasn't arguing for "varying one's play" at all, just so that's understood.Wang
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That last part was me being a retard. "You can't handle the truth!" is from a movie.Don't worry Wangy, I still like ya (:
The disrespect you showed there suggests otherwise. As if I haven't seen A Few Good Men. As if I'm not a huge Aaron Sorkin fan. As if I don't own every season of the West Wing. As if I don't google "Studio 7 on the Sunset Strip" every day hoping for new information or a copy of the pilot script that generated so much fervor in Hollywood.... I'm Colonel Jessup.
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I'm going to make some assumptions and do some complicated math in this thread after I get home from class in a couple hours. I think this is getting interesting.

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This isn't really a blind situation, UTG raised. I think if I 3 bet here from the BB I don't get discredited because I'm in a blind. He put in a UTG raise and I would be 3 betting that raise, that's strength. I generally always raise AA up preflop as much as I can but this was finally a situation where I could play the hand like this profitably in my opinion. Villain was too loose, but stayed aggressive with continuation bets etc, I think it was okay.
sorry, hand history was confusing.outside of a blind battle, my post loses some meaning.you are showing strength by 3-betting, however i think you can make two assumptions:1 - he has a strong hand. he's raising UTG...2 - he can't be confident that you have a stronger hand, even if you are showing strength.combine those two, and the fact that he has position, and he will be pretty certain that he has the stronger hand until several bets go in. by the time all those bets go in (at least 3 on the flop with or without a preflop cap) you are doing better than you would be with a turn CR.
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It depends on the player you are against. I wish I had PokerTracker stats to show you about Villain. I ran out of handspace and still need to purchase it. Anyway, Villain was raising preflop a lot with marginal cards and betting if checked to heads up.If I had to guess at some PT stats they'd be something like 40% VPiP, 25% PFR, and AF of 4He's not a maniac, but he will keep betting if you don't show any strength with any of his holdings.Now, onto the math.First let's figure out Villain's range.It's tough for me to this non results based since I know what he held this hand, so I'll try to think back to what I was thinking during the hand.Unpaired hands: A10, AJ, AQ, AK, or KQ suited or unsuitedThere are only 8 combos for hands containing an ace, since I hold 2 of them already, and 4 hands containing an ace, so that's 8x4 = 32 combos + KQ which is 16 combos so that's 48 combos.Paired hands: 88, 99, 10s, JJ, QQ, KK, AAThere are 6 combos for all pairs besides AA, which can only be the two red aces. That's 6x6 = 36 + 1 aces combo = 37 combos.85 possible combos.Preflop we are either calling or 3-betting, so let's calculate value based on anything we make beyond 2 small bets preflop.First let's explore the value of 3-betting preflop and taking the lead in the hand.Let's assume he will call a 3-bet preflop with any of the hands in the range. Let's also assume that when I 3-bet preflop, he will cap the red aces and 6 combos of kings, i'm not sure if he caps queens, but to give the 3-betting preflop thinkers the benefit of the doubt, we will say that he does, so that's 13 combos that he caps preflop. (+2 small bets)Any other of the 66 possible combos we will assume he just calls the 3-bet preflop with. (+1 small bet)Flop is 5:heart: T:diamond: Q:diamond:We bet out...Let's say he caps after our bet/3-bet with AA(1) and KK(6), 7 combos. (+4 small bets)He raises our bet and just calls our 3-bet with AQ(6), and KQ(12), 18 combos. (+3 small bets)He calls the flop bet with QQ(3), JJ(6), 10s(3), AK(8), AJ(8), A10(6), 34 combos. (+1 small bet)He folds the flop bet with 88(6) and 99(6), 12 combos. (+0 small bets)Turn is J:heart:We bet out...He raises with AA(1)/KK(6)/QQ(3)/JJ(3)/10s(3)/AK(8) and we just call. 24 combos. (+2 big bets)He calls with AQ(6)/AJ(6)/A10(6)/KQ(12), 30 combos. (+1 big bet)He folds nothing.River is 3:heart:If he raised last round, we check with the intention of calling. He bets AA(1)/KK(6)/QQ(3)/JJ(3)/10s(3)/AK(8)/AhQh/Ah10h/KhQh, 27 combos. (+1 big bet)If he called last round, we bet again. He calls with AQ(5)/AJ(6)/A10(5)/KQ(11), 27 combos. (+1 big bet)He folds nothing.Value Results:AhAd = +.125 BB.KK = +6 BB.QQ = We lose value? I think I giveup on this method!I feel like this is taking too long and there should be an easier way to calculate this without assuming tons of stuff throughout the whole hand and looking at results. This is obviously a board that AA doesn't fare that well on after the turn. Is there any other way to figure this out? I felt too bad with how we assume we're losing value by either play with QQ, I want to try and calculate the basis of value for the 2 different plays without taking into account THIS actual board, tryng to figure out which play is better over time, not for this hand alone. Anyone have any ideas? I'm bad at this kind of stuff.

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