question about the "300x the bb" rule to play

[WaffleMcHat 0]

I am just starting to play poker at casinos and since I am a college student with a low income obviously have to play the 4/8 fixed limit tables.Unfortunately, I am losing. I am quite confident 90% is attributed to just a run of bad luck. I follow Skanksly's Small Stakes Hold Em book and have most of it memorized. I really feel like in the long run I will come out ahead but my bankroll is small and I cannot afford anymore downward swings.Anyway, I am currently down 280$ and I have a few questions:1) Should I follow this 300x the BB rule religiously? I honestly do not understand this rule and need someone to shed the light on the subject. I mean for 4/8 fixed I am supposed to have 2400$ just devoted to freaking 4/8 fixed? That sounds a little absurd. 2) How bad can "downward swings" get for 4/8 fixed? I really don't have the time to recover from another -200$ hit so should I just cut my losses and not return to the cardroom until I have a bigger bankroll? Or since I will always have an edge over my opponents at that limit should I continue to play no matter what?Any info and comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Guest]

I think you may be playing a bit over your level, perhaps not in skill but probably in money. I play $1/2 and though I'm a pretty solid player, I've had downward swings of a little over $100. You gotta have the financial strength to outlast bad luck, I"d reccomend dropping to at least $2/4 and building back up.

[Metro 0]

Remember that at levels like that, you also have to contest with the rake, not just the other people at the table.

[Smasharoo 0]

I mean for 4/8 fixed I am supposed to have 2400$ just devoted to freaking 4/8 fixed? That sounds a little absurd. Yes, and it's not. You're down 30BB. That's a bad hour and a half for me some days. It's not an indication of your play yet.

[justblaze 0]

briefly:the 300xBB rule indeed stipulates that a proper bankroll for 4-8 limit holdem is 2400$. The reason for this is that this amount has been generally agreed upon to be enough to overcome any statistically likely swings which can be accounted for by luck, or standard deviation. What you can infer from this is that you can EXPECT, over the course of a career, to experience swings as large as $2000 or so each way, all accountable to luck. Any more than this would indicate a major leak or flaw in your play. So to answer your question, if you cant stand another 200$ swing, you are in the wrong game. I play 5-10 and 10-20. at 5-10, im having swings of upwards of 300$ each session. a 1000$ swing is not uncommon. the trick is to have more +1000 than -1000. Heres another thing that would worry me:Unfortunately, I am losing. I am quite confident 90% is attributed to just a run of bad luck. I follow Skanksly's Small Stakes Hold Em book and have most of it memorized.following a book to the tee is a great way to lose money. the idea of the book is to understand the thought processes behind the play, not to memorize the few hands they show and apply those rules blindly to every situation. Forget the whole book. now go back and read it again, and ask yourself: why is he saying to do that? what is the logic?

[Awful 0]

A bankroll is how much you have to gamble for all of time. It's not absurd because the plan is you can always recover with the money remaining after all but the absolute worst runs. You lost 30 BB. That would be 10% of a bankroll. Properly rolled, you wouldn't sweat it, you'd pass it off, and you'd go back to beating the game.Furthermore, especially in low limit games, you need a big cushion relative to game size. You'll be playing a lot of big pots, and you'll win more than your fair share, but losing a few in a row might ruin you. Without a proper roll, you'll be playing only the larger edges and you'll be leaving a lot of profit on the table because you can't play as aggressively.For the casual casino player who doesn't care about poker as a job, or being a winner, or tracking things, bankroll is meaningless. It only matters if you want to play for profit and be self-sustaining, or if you have no desire to reload online.If you can't lose another 25 big bets, drop down. Especially following SSHE, as Sklansky advocates taking every edge and beating the opponents postflop as well as through preflop tightness, the "usual" advice for such games.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

1)  Should I follow this 300x the BB rule religiously?   I honestly do not understand this rule and need someone to shed the light on the subject.   I mean for 4/8 fixed I am supposed to have 2400$ just devoted to freaking 4/8 fixed?   That sounds a little absurd.

The rule is to provide a self-sustaining bankroll that can endure long downswings (your current downswing is more of a minor blip) and still allow a pro player to buy into a game without risking ruin. And it's more of a guideline than a rule - it's still quite possible to lose all 300 BBs in an especially long downswing, it's just relatively unlikely. If you don't have to provide a self-sustaining bankroll - i.e. if you have a source of income other than poker, and are willing to use that to provide stake money for poker - then you don't have to worry as much about the rule.

2) How bad can "downward swings" get for 4/8 fixed?   I really don't have the time to recover from another -200$ hit so should I just cut my losses and not return to the cardroom until I have a bigger bankroll?    Or since I will always have an edge over my opponents at that limit should I continue to play no matter what?

They can get much, much worse - being down $280 is quite possible in a couple of bad sessions; lots of pros report periods were they had a couple of bad months. Poker is a game of variance and fluctuation, after all. There's no almighty Poker God ensuring that skilled players always have the nuts. It sounds like you can't really afford to risk what money you have, so if moving to a lower limit isn't an option you should probably get out of the game until that changes.

[WaffleMcHat 0]

The problem is that I cannot drop down a level. It is the lowest they offer at our casino. I suppose I will just keep building my bankroll online at the micro limits until I can afford to play at the 4/8 table. It sure is fun to play live poker opposed to online though :(As for the comment about the books, I think in low stakes holdem with as many loose passive players that are there, it is a mistake to deviate from the book at all. Like I said, I didnt play flawlessly but most of my losses were due to circumstances I couldnt have changed.

[TheIceman05 0]

As for the comment about the books, I think in low stakes holdem with as many loose passive players that are there, it is a mistake to deviate from the book at all.    Like I said, I didnt play flawlessly but most of my losses were due to circumstances I couldnt have changed.

I think this is a serious serious problem. Unless you can say, with some confidence, that the conditions in EVERY 4-8 game you play in are EXACTLY the conditions specified by Sklansky in SSHE, then you're missing bets here or there by not deviating from their optimum strategy. Plus, you'll never get any better.If you find yourself in a situation where you're playing like a robot, you'll probably make money, but you absolutely WILL NOT maximize profits. And that's a guarantee.Ice

[ahosang 0]

There's no way around the bankroll thing if you want to play your best, and you feel you are stronger than your opposition. Only way is to play rockish and have less variance.

[Smasharoo 0]

Only way is to play rockish and have less varianceMake much less money, too.

[troutsmart 0]

IF you can't take an $800 downswing playing that casino game, then it is best to stay far away from it. Sounds like you should play a .50/1 or 1/2 game on line. If you log enough hours and beat these games, you could build a bankroll that would allow you to play that game in fairly short time. Good luck to you.

[ahosang 0]

Only way is to play rockish and have less varianceMake much less money, too.

exactly.better to play internet poker and then have the enjoyment of live games later.

[AC BillP 0]

Here's my take, as a retired pro w/7 years at the grind. The 300BB rule is true mathematically, but you interpret it the wrong way. What it says to me is if you lose over $2200 at 4/8, then it's not a bad run, it's you need to pick up some aspect of your play. Also of course they are raking a big bet out of every good pot, plus your tip---so it's a very hard limit to beat. Let me give you a true story about 4/8-5/10. I was in your place and two different world series champions sat behind me (actually a babe girlfriend at the time). Every hand they whispered what they though everyone had on the turn. Thet were right about 75% of the time!!! I had NO CLUE HOW BAD I WAS AT READING PLAYERS!! Years later when I dropped down to 5/10 for fun and drinking, it was amazing how easy it was to read the hands, and notice all the missed bets etc. But I suspect it will take you a few years of carefull observation--and losing all your obvious tells to get that way. Watch a $400-$880 game if they'll let you, and learn something. And it's NOT starting hands at that level per Slansky!!

[UglyJimStudly 0]

As for the comment about the books, I think in low stakes holdem with as many loose passive players that are there, it is a mistake to deviate from the book at all.

Hmm. I don't think this really applies all that well, for a couple of reasons. The first is, as others have noted, every table is different and you can only find the optimal strategy for a given table through your own experience and judgement. Book play can give you a solid foundation and inform your decisions, but in the end it's just a plan and no plan survives contact with the enemy. The second reason is that there's a massive amount of information in Sklansky's book, not all of which applies universally, so adjusting to conditions at a particular table is required.After all, it's true there's a lot of loose passive players in low limit play. But toss in one loose aggressive maniac, and the table texture changes. Or a couple of tight-weak players. Or a strong player. Or some combination of all of the above. Correct play in one situation will be wrong in others; there is no One True Way to beat even low limit games.

[Hardrocker 0]

Or since I will always have an edge over my opponents at that limit should I continue to play no matter what? With proper discipline you can maintain an edge over your oponents in the long run, but don't assume that you will always have the edge.If you are just starting in the B & M setting, other people are probably getting betters reads from you than you are getting from them.I manage to make a little cash playing part-time, but my game still has some flaws in it. I kept running into this same fellow at Party who almost always seemed to have my number, until I realized that he always hit the table after I did. I would agree with the consensus, and say that you should build a bigger bankroll online before moving back to the B & M.Good luck.

[hbatac 0]

I've played a lot of poker the last four months (average about 4-6 hours a day) and what you are experiencing is very normal. I've gone on winning runs of 200BB a week to losing 200BB a week. Overall, I am up 10K playing games (hold em & Omaha H/L) ranging from 1-2 to 5-10 online. If losing 30BB is a problem, then you're gonna have bigger problems down the line. If poker's a hobby, then have fun. If you want to play poker for a while, then you have to think long-term. That's what the 300BB bankroll guideline is all about. The "edge" that you may have over your opponents tends to get killed at critical times by that nasty enemy - bad luck.Great pros have all gone broke at one point or another. The key is being able to learn. Poker is about using your judgment; something that books can't teach you, only experience. The table changes ALL THE TIME, you're gonna have to pay attention to that. Some poker decisions that you make may be constant and hold true most of the time, but it's those marginal decisions that require your judgment that may mean all the difference. A correct big bet decision an hour (saving a bet, milking a bet, calling a turn raise you shouldn't) is what separates the good from great players and makes huge differences in your bankroll.So are there answers to your questions? What's the biggest downward swing at 4/8? I guess your whole bankroll. Should you follow the 300BB guideline? I would. But it's a game where anything can happen. I like Phil Ivey's advice - play lots of hours, learn and make good decisions. I'm sure he adjusts to the table and so should you.

[LuckyDevil 0]

Lets i have a bankroll of $1400. I recently switched from NL to Limit. Would it be better to play one 2/4 table or multi table a few lower limits? Pros? Cons? Where am i going to make better money most likely? I've heard the rake at the lower limits is killer (i'm playing Party right now). Thanks in advance.

[WaffleMcHat 0]

First off, I would like to say thanks for all the feedback and advice. It has helped a lot. I have decided I will stick with microlimits until i build my bankroll up more. I think im still going to play at the BM room every now and then but not quite as heavily as i was before. I know its best if I didn't but its too much fun to pass up and I seem to learn a lot more.As for the comments about my playskill, I do not deny the fact that I am a novice but most of the lost money was due to people drawing out to me on the turn/river. If I had to estimate I would say around 100$ is attributed to poor play on my part so I guess if I take that into account its not even really that bad of losing streak. If you guys want the details on the hands I lost I can note them (my notes are pretty decent but no betting details just pot size) but most are just your uniforn gutshots/two ragged pair on river stuff that we are all familiar with.But as for the other players there. I can say with 100% certainty that 98% are absolutely terrible. Reading my opponents is definately not the problem. It's a new casino in a state that just got gambling (oklahoma) legalized so they are all loose passive garbage chasers that only raise pre flop with big premium hands like AA,KK. I tried check raising a lot (with success) to cut down on the chasing but most seemed to call everytime. This is the main reason I like it there so much more than online is because the players are much worse and easy to read. Anyway, thanks again for all the replies. You guys have helped out a lot.

[DiverDown4 0]

I belive that the biggest misconception in poker is that the online player is "inferior" to the live player because there is no "persona" attached to hte player, you cant pick up reads and tells online, (atleast not as much in live poker), but the fact is, that online players are often killing live cash games and tournaments. The reason being, im my opinion, is that online players dont have to look for those types of things, they are so grounded in the "numbers" that we havea huge understanding of the game. My advice is to play as many hands online as you possibly cant before setting into the b&m casinos. If you play 6 hours a day, theres no reason you cant log 10,000 hands/week online. You wil get signifaicantly better/faster online than in b&m. So play low limits online for a LONG TIME, then play both online and b&m and you'll see the difference. Remember, if you got some money to play, take 300, play .50/1 and build a bankroll/learn the game.