how did men "cheat" in a tourn?

[Pokerghost2 0]

I have read the email from daniel implicating that Men Nguyen is a tourn cheat. I know he wouldnt say this if he werent 100% sure it was true. My question is how in the world can u cheat in a tourn?

[deviper 0]

again that would be something danny would have to tell you.

[AvoidReality 0]

I have read the email from daniel implicating that Men Nguyen is a tourn cheat. I know he wouldnt say this if he werent 100% sure it was true. My question is how in the world can u cheat in a tourn?

By employing people to ship their chips over to you is one way

[smurdogg 0]

Or i could tell you how someone could cheat:Have people on the other side of the table picking up hole cards and signaling you. Have vested interest in other players, play differently knowing it benifits both of you to win, or have them give you their chips by folding when they shouldnt.

[mark33f 0]

I heard that people were dumping chips to himYou also might find this interesting...not sure of validity thoughhttp://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.ga...b7a05762534196b

[Smasharoo 0]

Have vested interest in other players, play differently knowing it benifits both of you to winIf that's cheating half the players in tournamnets are cheating.

[TS Clark 0]

I must have missed this post from Daniel with the Men info. Can someone please post a link so I can read the source material on this topic?Thanks.

[iveyfan30 0]

ive heard the dumping of chips to men rumour before...not saying its true, but alot of ppl have talked about it in forums

[deviper 0]

I must have missed this post from Daniel with the Men info. Can someone please post a link so I can read the source material on this topic?Thanks.

look at the bottom of the Big game cheats in the forum. Youll find wat you need there

[Absolute 0]

Smurdogg said: Have vested interest in other players, play differently knowing it benifits both of you to win Smasharoo replied: If that's cheating half the players in tournamnets are cheating.Smash is right here. Paul Phillips has a lot to say about this issue on his livejournal. In any big tournament, I would say at least half of the players have a piece of someone else in the tournament.This isn't so much cheating, because I don't think people buying in to a 10K tournament are sending their chips anyones way.But look at it this way. (Completely hypothetical)If Daniel decided to take a piece of John Juanda, the odds are he can get at least his buy-in back, if he believes either John or himself can make it in to the serious cash.It's just smart finance.

[Awful 0]

It depends on the size of the pieces swapped. In addition, Men had "rules" for opponents to softplay with him or chip-dump to stay in good standing with him and (according to what I half-remember from RGP posts) if not, they'd suddenly lose their backing. He blackmailed them with threats of withdrawal of support to have them do collude with him in pots when at the same table, essentially.Now, why does all this old, old, old RGP stuff come up? I've seen the old Danny-Annie feud come up, someone mentioning crazy Russ G, Daniel's email to Russ G where he falsely outs cheaters to get a response from Russ, and now Danny's statements on Men and tourneys. Leave RGP alone, the news is outdated, the conflicts dead, and the archives misused as these things come up here, IMHO.Men has changed how he treats his backees as a result of that long-ago posting as well IIRC, and now plays tournaments cleanly.

[Smasharoo 0]

It depends on the size of the pieces swappedIt does?It's worse to have 50% of someone than 5% of ten people??

[Awful 0]

I think it does for several reasons, Smash.1. The larger a portion of someone's entry you've covered, the more commitment they have to you, and you're more likely to have the influence to get them to collude with you. 2. You're more likely to end up with a swapee at your table, but the amount that you have with the smaller swapee is trivial enough in comparison with your keep from the prizes that you're far less likely to softplay them or collude. If you do something not kosher to help a 5% swapee, you're risking as much for far less benefit than with someone you have 1/2 of. Conversely, if you bust a 50% swapee without increasing your tournament equity by a factor of 2, you've lost a great deal on that transaction, and therefore are more likely to softplay when the situation arises.It IS worse to swap 50% with 1 than 5%with 10 people because the 50% will weigh heavier in decision-making than 5% will affect someone, both in the value of plays and also in the allegiance between those exchanging pieces of action. I'm not really a fan of anyone swapping action because it's much more clean-cut and fully honest without it, but there are levels regardless.

[Smasharoo 0]

It IS worse to swap 50% with 1 than 5%with 10 people because the 50% will weigh heavier in decision-making than 5% will affect someoneI don't think that's nessicarily so. I think it more matters how much of YOURSELF you've sold to other players in terms of softplay.If I have 5% of you and have sold 95% of myself and you're the chipleader....

[Mandelbrot 0]

It should be against the rules (is it?) to stake in a major tourney.

[Awful 0]

I see where you're coming from now, but your rather extreme example was beyond the instances of swapping I was thinking of when making that statement.Also, in your example, with 5% of yourself left and 5% of the chip-leader, you're value-wise better off soldiering on. Your elimination adds less to the tournament equity (use an ICM calculator) of the leader than the amount it takes from you, some layover is distributed among all remaining players, causing your dumping to the leader to be -EV despite what may seem to be the case. If you had a greater % of the leader than remaining in yourself by a factor I forgot to calculate, you move into the +EV realm.The real key is to swap out 5% of yourself to 100 different talneted people who don't talk much amongst themselves, then finish conspicuously out of the money.

[Awful 0]

Mandelbrot, as I said, it'd be much cleaner, simpler, and much less seedy-seeming when they don't, but it's also almost impossible to stop. You can just hand someone a wad of bills in the parking lot beforehand, make informal arrangements to swap over dinner; the transactions would be hard to trace, attribute, and respond to properly and fairly.

[Smasharoo 0]

The real key is to swap out 5% of yourself to 100 different talneted people who don't talk much amongst themselves, then finish conspicuously out of the money.Sure, but that'd be cheating.

[Awful 0]

Sure, but that'd be cheating.

OK, that's the LAST time I accidentally divulge my plans to scam everyone on a public forum

[Batch 0]

What I remember reading is that Men was in a tourney at foxwoods and there was a fire in his room.The people at foxwoods took a look at his room after the fire and they found a bunch of tourney chips in his room.Sounds like him and his chronies were taking chips from the tables and midway through certain levels they were pulling the chips out.I als9o remember a hand in 7 stud on espn where mihn Nguen had pocket Queens and he was very short stacked and men had a jack showing and he raised the pot up and Mihn got out.It just looked to me like a hand he should have played in.From what I understand Men stakes up to 10 people in some tourneys so I find it very easy to cheat.I will admit that Men is one of the funniest guys to watch on tv.

THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!

[rsigley 0]

What I remember reading is that Men was in a tourney at foxwoods and there was a fire in his room.The people at foxwoods took a look at his room after the fire and they found a bunch of tourney chips in his room.Sounds like him and his chronies were taking chips from the tables and midway through certain levels they were pulling the chips out.I als9o remember a hand in 7 stud on espn where mihn Nguen had pocket Queens and he was very short stacked and men had a jack showing and he raised the pot up and Mihn got out.It just looked to me like a hand he should have played in.From what I understand Men stakes up to 10 people in some tourneys so I find it very easy to cheat.I will admit that Men is one of the funniest guys to watch on tv.

THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!

The hand was like this4 called initially wasForrest: (8S, 8D),6DWheatly: (AH, JD), 10H (All in)Minh: (QH, QS), 9D (Didn't raise pre flop just called all in)Men: (AS, 4S), JSForrest folded after Wheatley raised all in and 2 called behind him.Then 4th card came:Wheatley got 2DMen got JCMinh got ASMaybe he thought Men had JJJ and folded it?The only thing suspicious woulda been not raising pre flop with the QQMen ended up with JJKK anyway

[Petoria 0]

There's nothing wrong with staking. It happens everyday, and you wouldn't see the best players in the world compete unless they got staked. Tournaments cost too much for it to depend squarely on your own BR, and have to beat so many ppl just to get your money back.

[iveyfan30 0]

There's nothing wrong with staking. It happens everyday, and you wouldn't see the best players in the world compete unless they got staked. Tournaments cost too much for it to depend squarely on your own BR, and have to beat so many ppl just to get your money back.

staking isnt really the issue i dont think...its when you stake ppl then instruct them to dump chips to you is when the problem starts....i dont know if this is true about men, but ive heard it about him

[princeof56k 0]

I understand that staking other people is a normal occurance, but it definately creates a conflict of interest during the tournament. To make a comparison to professional sports, this is exactly why an sports owner cant own 2 teams in the same sport. Would one team dump games to another if it helped the other team win their division? The leagues try their best to insure the compition is legit and both teams are trying to win.In the poker world we have come to accept this as part of the game and thats fine. I dont think it hurts the game all that much since people have come to accept that staking is part of the game. Although I think its rare, we cant be naive and think chip dumping never occurs.

[smurdogg 0]

To: SmashI was trying my darndest to paraphrase Daniel-he said the rules should be that you can't have more than ten percent of someone or something like that. So although its not cheating now, I think it is in a lot of people's minds.