preflop adventures with ak

[Snowman 0]

$10+1 SnG at StarsPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converterHero (t3190)BB (t1250)UTG (t740)UTG+1 (t780)MP1 (t1470)MP2 (t2460)MP3 (t1780)CO (t1450)Button (t380)Preflop: Hero is SB with [Ah], [Kh]. 1 fold, Hero...Still early and I've been somewhat unfocused so I don't really have any reads.What's the best play?The last two raisers, CO and Button, have less than half my stack. Should this affect my decision?

[Scott3705 0]

Blah. Calling is probably getting one of the raisers to push all in. You can't get everyone to fold, so you've lost a lot of the value of AK. Maybe I call and hope no one pushes all in. maybe I fold AK. yuck.

[shpaget 0]

I probably fold.You're probably against at least one pair, and the other two guys probably have at least two of your outs.The only other alternative is to push and get isolated against the button, but he probably has the best hand of the three.If you're lucky, you push, at least one of the other two call you with AQ, and, even if you lose 380 to the button, you win 1400 off them.

[Hobbes 1]

I agree that calling will get one of the raisers to push all in, specifically the CO. I think MP3 and the two limpers will fold if you're in the pot. You don't really have to worry about the button since he is such a short stack and is already all in.A lot of the value in AK, besides a strong pre-flop hand to get people to fold, is being able to see it through to the river. If you push here, CO might call, but you're probably racing with the right odds. Or you're dominated. Tough situation here.Stack sizes always factor into your decision. What you want to avoid is just spewing chips because you're the chip leader. Just because you'll still be very much alive if you lose an all in to the CO, doesn't mean you should make the call.Yuck, I hate this spot. I'm interested to hear other's opinions; I'm probably folding with no reads, but could be convinced to push pretty easily. I'm not calling because of all the live players behind me.

[Scott3705 0]

I probably fold.You're probably against at least one pair, and the other two guys probably have at least two of your outs.

I did not consider this that ontop of possibly being dominated here, if we aren't dominated probably 2 out of our outs might be taken.

[Snowman 0]

I probably fold.You're probably against at least one pair, and the other two guys probably have at least two of your outs.

I did not consider this that ontop of possibly being dominated here, if we aren't dominated probably 2 out of our outs might be taken.

Neither did I. Good point.

[Pupsta 0]

raises don't mean that your outs are gone...could be TT and JJ raising or something....i'd never assume outs are gone here...might be spewing here, but i think i'm pushing.

[gobears 0]

My first inclination was to fold but I think that I'm pushing here instead.The key here is that you still have a decent stack relative to the blinds if you lose but you can gain a ton of chips if you win. Based on the bets, CO is really the only hand that you have to worry about. If he has AA or KK, then that stinks but otherwise, you have a decent shot.One of the benefits of gaining a big stack early is that you can take some reasonable chances without going broke.

[shpaget 0]

raises don't mean that your outs are gone...could be TT and JJ raising or something....i'd never assume outs are gone here...might be spewing here, but i think i'm pushing.

What three hands do you think are here?Sure, it could be 88, TT and QQ (which means 6 cards make you drawing reeeeeaallly thin and you're a 2:1 dog collectively)...but in most cases it's KQ, AQ and JJor AJ, AQ and KK - one outer here...good luck...or something similar.Though once in a blue moon you're facing three pairs below K, or 6 cards below K, you're usually facing a pair and at at least one strong ace or king, or both.9 times out of ten at least one of your outs is in one of those three hands...and probably 7 times out of ten at least two outs are.But if it is AJ, AQ and KK...this is where you want the button to have KK, and the other two to call you - you lose the allin to the short stack, but you win more on the sidepot.

[strategy 4]

My first inclination was to fold but I think that I'm pushing here instead.The key here is that you still have a decent stack relative to the blinds if you lose but you can gain a ton of chips if you win. Based on the bets, CO is really the only hand that you have to worry about. If he has AA or KK, then that stinks but otherwise, you have a decent shot.One of the benefits of gaining a big stack early is that you can take some reasonable chances without going broke.

When in doubt, agree with gobears and pretend that you came to the same conclusions independently.One thing I'd like to add:The CO raised minimum. You're going to war with him if you raise, and you'll typically be looking at AA-TT. I'd still take the gamble on the off chance that he calls you with a much worse hand, which will happen from time to time. You have the chips and you're really only DOA against one hand--jam and hope for the best.

[Snowman 0]

My first inclination was to fold but I think that I'm pushing here instead.The key here is that you still have a decent stack relative to the blinds if you lose but you can gain a ton of chips if you win. Based on the bets, CO is really the only hand that you have to worry about. If he has AA or KK, then that stinks but otherwise, you have a decent shot.One of the benefits of gaining a big stack early is that you can take some reasonable chances without going broke.

When in doubt, agree with gobears and pretend that you came to the same conclusions independently.

That was exactly what I was going to do.Actually, he sums up my thinking very well in this hand. I admit that I didn't think about some of my outs being gone, which is likely.My original question about stack sizes affecting this play is still interesting to me. Of course stack sizes should affect your decision, but let's make it a bit more specific. I made it vague on purpose so as not to give away too much.If we assume that pushing is the best play here, which doesn't seem too controversial, would it still be the best play if my stack was around t1400 instead? I take it from the quote from gobears that he thinks so at least.

[mk 11]

Anna says, "Fold if your stack is 1400. Jam if your stack is 3100."

[Scott3705 0]

We really like pushing AK here with virtually no fold equity and a lot of our outs taken?

[shpaget 0]

We really like pushing AK here with virtually no fold equity and a lot of our outs taken?

It depends who you are worried about - people are worried about CO here, which isn't a bad conclusion, but I'm not so sure I agree.First, he did NOT min-raise the minimum...I don't know why people think this. MP2 limped (this could be a trap)MP3 min-raised (trap? unsure? idiot?)CO raised 3x MP3....if he senses weakness he can make this move with AT-AQ - hell he can make this move with suited connectors, again, if he sees MP3's raise as weak.Button min-raised all-in - with no fold equity and a raise/reraise in front of him, I'm inclined to believe he has the best hand.You have zero fold equity against the button...you still have some fold equity against the other three players, especially being the big stack. If MP2 or MP3 were TT, 99 you might get them to fold. CO would probably fold TT as well. You might also get AJ or AQ to call you. But, I think in most cases the Aces fold and the pairs call, making you hurtin'.In the end, the only time a push is worthwhile here is if the button is best, you are second best, and you get at least one of the other big stacks to call you.It's a crap shoot which is why my initial assessment is to fold, but pushing is my 2nd choice here. Calling sucks...and any raise that is not a push sucks.

[microtech 0]

A case can be made for folding or pushing but I like pushing here. This early on it's hard to get away from this hand. Even if you lose you are more than likely still above average chip position. This is the advantage of having chips early, you can afford to take a chance on a questionable hand.

[microtech 0]

A case can be made for folding or pushing but I like pushing here. This early on it's hard to get away from this hand. Even if you lose you are more than likely still above average chip position. This is the advantage of having chips early, you can afford to take a chance on a questionable hand.

[Scott3705 0]

I honestly fold here. We have the chip lead right now and i want to keep it so i can be aggressive with it. that's the advantage of a chip lead at this stage in the tourney. Not that it affords us the opportunity to gamble. AK is a strong hand because it you are usually 50/50 against other hands that may call and it will have fold equity to give you another opportunity to wint he pot. In this case, we are sure that the button has something he's going to call with and most likely it's not AQ. it's atleast a pair. therefore, we can't win the pot by pushing here. Also, with so many people in the pot, I think 1-2 of our outs are gone. Fold it.

[Hobbes 1]

We really like pushing AK here with virtually no fold equity and a lot of our outs taken?

It depends who you are worried about - people are worried about CO here, which isn't a bad conclusion, but I'm not so sure I agree.First, he did NOT min-raise the minimum...I don't know why people think this. MP2 limped (this could be a trap)MP3 min-raised (trap? unsure? idiot?)CO raised 3x MP3....if he senses weakness he can make this move with AT-AQ - hell he can make this move with suited connectors, again, if he sees MP3's raise as weak.Button min-raised all-in - with no fold equity and a raise/reraise in front of him, I'm inclined to believe he has the best hand.You have zero fold equity against the button...you still have some fold equity against the other three players, especially being the big stack. If MP2 or MP3 were TT, 99 you might get them to fold. CO would probably fold TT as well. You might also get AJ or AQ to call you. But, I think in most cases the Aces fold and the pairs call, making you hurtin'.In the end, the only time a push is worthwhile here is if the button is best, you are second best, and you get at least one of the other big stacks to call you.It's a crap shoot which is why my initial assessment is to fold, but pushing is my 2nd choice here. Calling sucks...and any raise that is not a push sucks.

The button has seen two weak plays by the MP's and a re-raise by the cut off. The CO doesn't have to have a huge hand to make this play because he could interpret the CO's play as preying on the weak. And he's short stacked, so he thinks he can make this move and probably get heads up against CO with a significant amount of dead money in there (the MP's and the blinds). I think the button can make this play with a lot of hands (any Ace or any pair). CO, even though he could be attacking the weakness shown in front of him, still has to worry about the three players left to act behind him (if he's not worried about the MP's playing back). I'll give CO a little more credit (big Ace or medium and up pocket pairs). You could be up against two pairs or a pair and an Ace or two smaller Aces. I don't think Aces or Kings are necessarily in play here. My first thought was fold because you don't have to gamble when you're the big stack, but maybe I'll push because I could have the best of it or be a coin flip and could win a big pot. My natural tendency would still be to fold though.

[Snowman 0]

The button has seen two weak plays by the MP's and a re-raise by the cut off. The CO doesn't have to have a huge hand to make this play because he could interpret the CO's play as preying on the weak. And he's short stacked, so he thinks he can make this move and probably get heads up against CO with a significant amount of dead money in there (the MP's and the blinds). I think the button can make this play with a lot of hands (any Ace or any pair). CO, even though he could be attacking the weakness shown in front of him, still has to worry about the three players left to act behind him (if he's not worried about the MP's playing back). I'll give CO a little more credit (big Ace or medium and up pocket pairs). You could be up against two pairs or a pair and an Ace or two smaller Aces. I don't think Aces or Kings are necessarily in play here. My first thought was fold because you don't have to gamble when you're the big stack, but maybe I'll push because I could have the best of it or be a coin flip and could win a big pot. My natural tendency would still be to fold though.

I like this analysis. Not sure what I think the best play is yet though.

[copernicus 0]

I agree that most likely a couple of your outs are gone. The interesting thing about AK is that against N opponents it can lose some outs, and as long as they arent in the same opponents hand, you maintain about a 1/N chance of winning the hand vs a lower pair.The pushers are basically saying they will take marginal or even slightly inferior (because a shorter stack isnt contributing fully to your pot odds) odds early for a chance to build an even bigger stack, especially if they have the luxury of not being knocked out if they lose.You have to be very confident that one opponent doesnt hold both outs though, because another AK destroys your odds with a tie, and youre way behind AA and KK.I could have put two other players in this uncomfortable position in the first hand of satellite at the Bellagio last night. I'm in the CO and the action goes fold, raise 3x bb, raise all in, folded to me. I have 88, and think about the possibility of them duplicating Aces and being ahead,vs one of them having an overpair to me, and decided it was too early to mix it up. They both had AK, I would have flopped an 8 and been in control of the table from then on in. I wound up out fairly early.

[Hobbes 1]

You have to be very confident that one opponent doesnt hold both outs though, because another AK destroys your odds with a tie, and youre way behind AA and KK.

Excellent point. It's been mentioned that you might be up against Aces or Kings and of course that would be bad, but I don't think anyone has talked about another AK and how bad it would be to be playing for a split pot.

[Snowman 0]

You have to be very confident that one opponent doesnt hold both outs though, because another AK destroys your odds with a tie, and youre way behind AA and KK.

Excellent point. It's been mentioned that you might be up against Aces or Kings and of course that would be bad, but I don't think anyone has talked about another AK and how bad it would be to be playing for a split pot.

Since this got brought up, and I think the discussion is about to end, I'll post the results and reveal how apt the title of the post really is :-)MP3 called with AKoCO called with AKsButton had 22I guess button was very happy the split second it took for the flop to bring the remaining king. And that I, CO and button were kinda happy after that until the turn and river brought runner-runner flush to CO.Anyway, what do you think of the other players' actions in this hand?

[copernicus 0]

Buttons out of his mind with 22!

[Hobbes 1]

You have to be very confident that one opponent doesnt hold both outs though, because another AK destroys your odds with a tie, and youre way behind AA and KK.

Excellent point. It's been mentioned that you might be up against Aces or Kings and of course that would be bad, but I don't think anyone has talked about another AK and how bad it would be to be playing for a split pot.

Since this got brought up, and I think the discussion is about to end, I'll post the results and reveal how apt the title of the post really is :-)MP3 called with AKoCO called with AKsButton had 22I guess button was very happy the split second it took for the flop to bring the remaining king. And that I, CO and button were kinda happy after that until the turn and river brought runner-runner flush to CO.Anyway, what do you think of the other players' actions in this hand?

Nice. That's one of those good TV hands. MP3 played it poorly. CO was put in a similar position as you were.

[strategy 4]

First, he did NOT min-raise the minimum...I don't know why people think this.

Initial raise was to 190, he raised to 380... is he allowed to raise any less than that? If so, then I retract my original "beware of the min-raise" comment. I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong--I only tend to notice these things when I see the chips lined up on the virtual felt.