bubble and big slick

[CodyHartman 0]

Great point guys, I miunderstood pieces of each of yur posts. It's all godd. It is just the way I would play the situation is all. ROI is nice, I will admit that there are times when I will play for the money. Maybe since your stack is pretty small yet there are 9 ppl w/ lower stacks, then folding to get the $$ may be right. Anyway ya do it stand by your discesion and don't second guess it, we are all right in our way of playing it and we could make a case for both sides.

[AllenRay4 0]

i was in almost that exact situation last night on Full Tilt, 18 paid out, i was 19th of 23. i got AK mid pos and didnt even think about it, pushed all-in. the huge chip leader called me with A8! later on i got low again and pushed in with AQ and was called by AJ. i honestly think some people think of an all-in as a weaker hand in some cases....like they might be thinking to themselves "well if he he ad Aces, Kings or AK he might only raise a little to invite more people in" Nopefinished 3rd for $430 bucks, doubling my bankroll. push it in next time, there is always another tourney starting soon. i never play 'just to make the money' , there are too many blinds and antes to be stealing

[gobears 0]

I was in a Pokerstars $100 + $9 tournament a few months ago, 36 would get paid, and we were in hand to hand play as there were 37 left.I was in about 20th with the #1 chip leader to my right. He was the SB and I was the BB. He pushed all-in and I had AKo in my hand. I called, he flips over Q3o; the turn brought a Q and I was out as I didn't improve.I finished 37th and some bubble boy was very happy.I can't remember the economic theory term but everybody has a pain point where the pain of getting nothing outweighs the correct EV play. In the blog on the Pokerstars Atlantis tournament, there was a story about a player near the bubble who stopped playing anything (even pocket rockets) until he was in the money.It's sort of like if someone said that we could flip a coin once; if I call it right, he'll give me $50K; if I call it wrong, I owe him $40K. I have the right odds, but I'm not going to take this bet because of the pain if I lose.I figure that my bubble pain point is somewhere north of $100

[DwayneWayne 0]

I pushed with the AK and I would push again, but I would def consider folding given the proper circumstances (which this scenario fits pretty closely, IMO).I guess the theme that I keep getting is that you have the best of it a lot more then you don’t with AK. But my point is that can it be that much of a mistake to fold the AK, get into the money then push with AJ. Is the power lost by droping from AK to AJ or even 88 once in the money and pushing with the 6200 worth getting nothing?Pain point @ $100....i don’t think my second guessing had to do with dollars in cents as far as hey $50...great! It had to do with the smartest +EV move at that particular moment. Pushing is probably a better play for the times you survive and place in the money a lot higher then if you go card dead and blind off into small money. But I still think folding is closer behind the “right” play then ppl are giving credit for.***Check out the Cardplayer Article by Mark Gregorich, it deals with the same thing.....kid had a pair!"

[ErikM 0]

But my point is that can it be that much of a mistake to fold the AK' date=' get into the money then push with AJ. Is the power lost by droping from AK to AJ or even 88 once in the money and pushing with the 6200 worth getting nothing?

This is a good question... the only problem with it is... who's to say you will get a AJ or 88 soon enough for it to make a difference?I can see a scenario where you get a whole bunch of 5-3, 7-2, and 8-4...than when you finally do get a wired pair or two big tickets... you are so short stacked that doubling up doesn't help all that much.

[maxone22 0]

I fold here and take the small payday. At 6100 and 24th of 33, this is probably the last hand before the money. After 2 to 3 hours I want to see something, even if it is just a free buyin to the next. Some will say this is very weak play and will not get you a final table. True. At this stage in this tournament, I'd say your not making the final table anyway. Top 10 by now have 30-40x your stack. By now they've made a habit of calling all-ins with almost any 2 and catching. To me its not worth it. I make the final table another tourney....maybe using the buyin I got from this one~

[AllenRay4 0]

no way...that is essentially giving up. i have been in last or close to last numerous times and never do i think "oh i wont make the final table"....the blinds/antes are so big you can quickly go from 20th / 22 to 8 or 9th in a couple all in pots. in fact, when i got 3rd the other day in a $20 tourney, i was in last place 6 diff times with less than 25 people to play...not to mention dead last coming into the final tablenever give up...its such a cliche but if you are playing to win your money back, unless you have a reason to NOT put your chips all in with what is probably the best hand (ex...maybe you are 4th in chips, chip leader put you all in after a series of raises....then MAYBE i fold kings or something) or you are just costing yourself time/money/chips

[Bonobio 0]

You're either going to be -$30 or +$50. That's an $80 swing and you aren't going to blind out anytime soon. Being on a shorter stack, I say make your money. Other chances will arise.That's just how I feel right now. During play my results may vary :wink:

[ddudley 0]

Play to win, second place is the first place loser.

[Stewy 0]

I would fold my way into the money. It may not sound macho or whatever. I have already put over two hours of my time and would atleast like to have something to show for it. At this stage of the tournament I am a short to medium stack surviving to the money or I am the big stack stealing pots at every chance. Many times I see it in tournaments once everyone is in the money things can change so fast. The big stacks have trouble changing gears and make some horrendous calls and alot of the medium sized stacks change gears and run over the table. I have had most succes in tournaments surviving into the money and catching a rush against some loose calling big stacks.

[Guest XXEddie]

3x bb raise, try to pick up the pot preflop. Fold to any significant reraise. We play conservative unless the flop beats us over the head, knowing that our 4000 stack will likely get us to the money anyways. But that 2100 in the pot pre would be very nice right now.

3xB B in 1/3 your stack if your gonna raise here go all-in. And you have a better chance picking up the blinds with an allin than a standard raise

[Metro 0]

A few things I consider as I get closer and closer to the bubble - 1. How low are the lowest stacks. If there are 2 people with say... 1000 on different tables, the pressure is on them, not you, to double up. You apparently had 9 people stacked at this point, so clearly there are a few in very rough shape. 2. Where are the big stacks at my table, and what are their stack sizes in relation to mine. A much larger stack behind me will probably be eager to call. However, he might also be more likely to sit back and use the tight play of the short stacks to his advantage. Big stacks have all kinds of power over stealing blinds from the small stacks in this situation, so why would he risk losing all of the potential cash he could pick up from the blinds over the next few hands while everyone is ultra-tight just for your 6k. 3. What percentage of my stack do I stand to gain by just pushing all in at this point. 6200, 2100 in the pot. That's 1/3 of my stack simply by stealing the blinds, if I get called, I might be in great shape to a loose big stack that's just trying to get rid of the small stacks. You're in MP. EP, Someone would probably put you on a premium if you pushed in. From MP and being a short stack, this looks more like a blind-steal, so you might get action from hands you have dominated. 4. Which is more important to me, profiting, however small it is, from this tournament, or making a run at the serious money. If you can say to yourself that you are content to just take the $50 and buy into the next tourney, so be it. I think you won't find many people here that agree with you though. The time invested in one of these things, for a $20 profit translates to less money/hour than you would probably have made playing a microlimit table for that duration.All that being said, I push all in here. And I'll be honest, I don't want to get called. In the majority of situations that you are called, you're going to find yourself behind, and I'm more than happy to take my stack from 6200 to 8300. Gives me that much more to work with the next time I run around to steal the blinds.

[bobbytheo3 0]

it hasnt been said and it may seem passive, but i think limping is a good, tricky play here. after all, AK is a drawing hand essentially. if you dont hit the flop, your probly not gonna win the hand. this way, you can fold if an ace or king doesnt hit the flop. and if one does, someone might make a play on you and go all in representing the A or K. also, by limping, you might entice one of the blinds to make a steal attempt preflop with a weaker hand like A-x or K-Q since you have feigned weakness.

[DwayneWayne 0]

"it hasnt been said and it may seem passive, but i think limping is a good, tricky play here. after all, AK is a drawing hand essentially. if you dont hit the flop, your probly not gonna win the hand. this way, you can fold if an ace or king doesnt hit the flop. and if one does, someone might make a play on you and go all in representing the A or K. also, by limping, you might entice one of the blinds to make a steal attempt preflop with a weaker hand like A-x or K-Q since you have feigned weakness.["Limping?? Are you serious?So your gonna call off your stack and a chance to win the 2100 of dead money in the pot?Limping is not an option here.

[bobbytheo3 0]

haha, hard to believe you are so against that play considering you actually think folding is a viable option at all. folding is by far the worst play. going all in or a 3xbb raise are also good plays. i just think limping in gives you the best chance to double up here with a trap, which is what you are tryin to do to set yourself up to get to the final table. taking the blinds isnt bad, but you are enticing someone to make a bluff at the pot if you limp, especially one of the big stacks who thinks everyone on the bubble will be playing super-tight. folding is laughable, even if you raise 3X BB and somone goes over the top all in, you have to call at that point. your only dominated by AA or KK, but there are a number of hands you dominate and your pot odds are way to good to fold against any other pocket pair in a coin flip situation.

[holman3rd 0]

haha, hard to believe you are so against that play considering you actually think folding is a viable option at all. folding is by far the worst play. going all in or a 3xbb raise are also good plays. i just think limping in gives you the best chance to double up here with a trap, which is what you are tryin to do to set yourself up to get to the final table. taking the blinds isnt bad, but you are enticing someone to make a bluff at the pot if you limp, especially one of the big stacks who thinks everyone on the bubble will be playing super-tight. folding is laughable, even if you raise 3X BB and somone goes over the top all in, you have to call at that point. your only dominated by AA or KK, but there are a number of hands you dominate and your pot odds are way to good to fold against any other pocket pair in a coin flip situation.

this is horrible advice, and you clearly do not understand bubble play.

[DwayneWayne 0]

Folding is much better then limping. I would love to see some other thoughts on this. Why do I know I’m right? Because we’ve had 40 posts and no one said it!Limping and calling a raise? Why not just raise in the first place with a chance to win it right there. Poker 101.I pushed in real life but argued that with the bubble right that and you in no danger of busting out why folding wasn’t a superior play. You might want to re-read the thread.Limping is 100% the worst of the 3 options.Folding. 100% make the money.Limping....????? for what? What are you gaining....? What are you doing the 66% of the time that you miss the flop and are now even more short stacked?

[holman3rd 0]

Folding is much better then limping. I would love to see some other thoughts on this. Why do I know I’m right? Because we’ve had 40 posts and no one said it!Limping and calling a raise? Why not just raise in the first place with a chance to win it right there. Poker 101.I pushed in real life but argued that with the bubble right that and you in no danger of busting out why folding wasn’t a superior play. You might want to re-read the thread.Limping is 100% the worst of the 3 options.Folding. 100% make the money.Limping....????? for what? What are you gaining....? What are you doing the 66% of the time that you miss the flop and are now even more short stacked?

I agree that folding is better than limping. In fact, I don't even consider limping an option.But, I think that 3x BB raise or a push is better than folding. True, there is a chance you'll bust out and not make the money. But, if you fold and hope to crawl into the money, chances are you'll be so short-stacked that you won't finish anywhere near the top, which is where the real money is at. Personally, I'd make a 3xbb raise if tight, skilled players were behind me. I'd push if weaker players were behind me. Some players are satisfied to make the money...nothing wrong with that.I prefer to try and finish near the top. AK is a very strong hand when you are short-stacked on near the bubble. Since I want to finish near the top, I'm not mucking it and then waiting around hoping to limp into the money.

[bobbytheo3 0]

"Why do I know I’m right? Because we’ve had 40 posts and no one said it! "hahah, good logic. if the expert posters on fullcontact all say it, it must be true. i said pushing all-in would be a good play as well. cant go wrong there. youll probly steal the blinds. i just see it as a better chance of doubling up if you limp. i dont know, i could be wrong, but if you were someone behind me and saw me just limp, wouldnt you be more likely to make a move on me with a weaker hand thinking you could take the blinds plus a limper now. and if i miss the flop and someone bets out, i can fold and still have 5400 in chips to play with. but if i hit the flop, ill have position on the blinds and another great chance to double up. who knows. maybe ill ask one of the pros on the PP million cruise what they think.

[holman3rd 0]

"Why do I know I’m right? Because we’ve had 40 posts and no one said it! "hahah, good logic. if the expert posters on fullcontact all say it, it must be true. i said pushing all-in would be a good play as well. cant go wrong there. youll probly steal the blinds. i just see it as a better chance of doubling up if you limp. i dont know, i could be wrong, but if you were someone behind me and saw me just limp, wouldnt you be more likely to make a move on me with a weaker hand thinking you could take the blinds plus a limper now. and if i miss the flop and someone bets out, i can fold and still have 5400 in chips to play with. but if i hit the flop, ill have position on the blinds and another great chance to double up. who knows. maybe ill ask one of the pros on the PP million cruise what they think.

What would I do if was behind your limp? Depends on my read on you at that point.But, with no read, a limp looks highly suspicious to me, given your stack size. Smells like a monster looking for action.If I had a big stack, I might play back. Short stack, no way.Limps from short stacks at this point in the tourney look very suspicious.

[DwayneWayne 0]

PP Millions.Is that your claim to fame.A min raise would accomplish more then limping by giving you a shot at the 2100 no?

[holman3rd 0]

PP Millions.Is that your claim to fame.A min raise would accomplish more then limping by giving you a shot at the 2100 no?

I agree.Let me add that stack size of those yet to act is critical as well. Against all big stacks, I just shove the whole thing in. Don't want to tempt anyone to mess with me. If I run up against AA or KK, so be it.Against short stacks, I 3xbb raise (or thereabouts), especially if the players are tight. Granted, I may have them covered, so a push is no different here.

[bobbytheo3 0]

i agree with that. that means there is a good chance the blinds check to you after the flop and you can make a steal attempt there even if you miss it. if they are puttin you on a monster, they will only be able to call you if the they hit the flop real hard. either way, your hand is disguised well. thats why i think its a good outside the box play. the fact that no one out of 40 posters suggested it means no one else is puttin you on AK if you do it. any time your hand is disguised, you have an advantage over your opponents, whther they think your hand is stronger or weaker than it truly is.

[bobbytheo3 0]

why would you not want to tempt someone to mess with you??? thats the whole idea, you want somone to mess with you at this point. you probly have the best hand. this is your chance to double up. if you raise 3xx, you are showing strength and its less likely you get all your money in with edge. i still dont mind that play though as ive said, but im looking to double up here, not take the blinds.

[holman3rd 0]

i agree with that. that means there is a good chance the blinds check to you after the flop and you can make a steal attempt there even if you miss it. if they are puttin you on a monster, they will only be able to call you if the they hit the flop real hard. either way, your hand is disguised well. thats why i think its a good outside the box play. the fact that no one out of 40 posters suggested it means no one else is puttin you on AK if you do it. any time your hand is disguised, you have an advantage over your opponents, whther they think your hand is stronger or weaker than it truly is.

now this i agree with. absolutely nothing wrong with this play if you know those to act are observant players. this gets into 'he thinks that i think that he thinks' thinking. Plus, mixing up your play is a good thing.hard to narrow down how often i'd try the limp in this spot, but i'd have to say less than 10% of the time. as usual, it depends. by the way, can you include the relevent quote when you respond to a particular post? sorry, sometimes i have trouble figuring out who you are responding to.