big call downs...or big laydowns...

[DougieG 0]

I'm not an expert in +/- EV or anything like that so i'm throwing my question out to y'all. When i play 1/2 NL at the casino I make big call downs. I like to think i have the instinct however, there are times where i'm way off base and make a call down with bottom pair and he's got top set. Things like that. Then there are times where i call them with A high and they have to show down the busted draw or something along those lines. I'm curious as to mathematically what is more profitable. Making big lay downs, or making big call downs. First without taking into consideration the table image you get by calling down vs. laying down. Then if you consider how your table image changes, people making bigger bets into you and giving you more action because they think you'll call them down with nothing. Basically, what's more profitable in your opinion?

[nikatha 0]

I think there is only one reply to this. !!!!Pot Odds!!!!!

[DrZebra 0]

I think that you should not be making many big laydowns at 1/2 NL.Depends where you play. If you play at some B&M casino where people are nuts, just wait for hands. No big call downs or laydowns.By the way, call downs are not just "shot in the dark"s. You have to have a reason and a read.

[DougieG 0]

I don't take shots in the dark, i'm saying my reads have a tendency to be spot on, or way off. In general i make good reads and play them as such, but like i said there are times when i'm way off base.

[Dynon07 0]

I feel making big laydowns is a better quality to possess. Most of the time when I see someone call down with low pair in a situation where all signs point towards disaster I just think they are a fool. People are perpetual doubters and attempt to hero each other all the time (hero = someone who makes ridiculous calls frequently ). So every now and then they look like a genius cause they called 50 on the river with Ace high and it was good somehow. The difference between a hero and myself is that my dream is to get someone all in for a million dollars when I have a straight flush vs their quad kings, and heros dream about calling 1 million with ace high and having it be good. This may seem like a ridiculous point but a lot can be pulled from that statement. I am not saying that you are like this in any way, you probably have legit reading abilities however this is what I think when I see this normally. So for table image making good laydowns, and calling someones hand makes you much better of a player in my eyes. As an aggressive player I feel that you should never just be calling giant bets, you should find out where you stand as soon as you can, however there is the occassion where I will try to expose someone by just calling down. I guess I just have a different perspective than some but I definetly give more credit to the guy who folds the lower flush , or the lower 2 pair, then the guy who calls all in with ace high or a low PP when the board is all overs.

[AceJackOffS 0]

If your reading ability os sometimes way off then you should be making more laydowns. more profitable in the long run.

[DrZebra 0]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoaI didn't realize when you said big calldowns you were talking about calling with bottom pair or ace high (tongue in cheek.)The question being asked (in essence) is "if my reads are inconsistent by being either spot on or way off, should I call down with two pair when the fourth straight card comes..."The answer to this question is YES. "Should i laydown top pair when i got reraised on the turn"If your reads are that inconsistent (and you're possibly being taken advantage of) then NO.Don't consider calling down with ace high until you're already killing your 1/2 NL game.

[anselm 0]

When you say that your reads are spot-on except when they're way off, I can really relate because when I'm playing I win all the pots I'm involved in except the ones where I lose.

[jack24bauer24 0]

If you are constantly making big calls on the river with bottom pair or ace high, well, you aren't going to win much money.

[Abbaddabba 0]

It's such a vague, retarded question.How big the laydown is and how big the call is should directly relate to how unlikely it seems like the right play based on the pot size and the bet size.You should be doing neither without spot on reads, and those reads can go in both directions.

[DougieG 0]

The difference between a hero and myself is that my dream is to get someone all in for a million dollars when I have a straight flush vs their quad kingsSo you dream of holding the cooler over somebody's quads...i dream of hitting the lotto. You probly entered the pot that you hit your straight flush as an underdog, a pretty big one. So you dream of entering a pot as an underdog, outdrawing somebody, and then hitting a hand against one that could not ever get away from it.And table image is greatly affected by the way y'all perceive a call down with A high. Like one guy said, you think i'm an idiot so you try to get into pots with me and such when in reality i'm probly not as bad as you think i am. Or, you stay out of hands with me in which case i may have some trouble getting action, but there's generally enough people who think they're hot shots and can outplay me to make up for it.

[Dynon07 0]

The difference between a hero and myself is that my dream is to get someone all in for a million dollars when I have a straight flush vs their quad kingsSo you dream of holding the cooler over somebody's quads...i dream of hitting the lotto. You probly entered the pot that you hit your straight flush as an underdog' date=' a pretty big one. So you dream of entering a pot as an underdog' date=' outdrawing somebody, and then hitting a hand against one that could not ever get away from it.And table image is greatly affected by the way y'all perceive a call down with A high. Like one guy said, you think i'm an idiot so you try to get into pots with me and such when in reality i'm probly not as bad as you think i am. Or, you stay out of hands with me in which case i may have some trouble getting action, but there's generally enough people who think they're hot shots and can outplay me to make up for it.[/quote'']I'm just saying I have a lot more respect for the guy who is betting then calling. Aggressive people seem to have better poker skills then people who just call, generally. If you are leading the hand you know where you stand, you should either be calling or folding. That hand btw it was raised 3 dollars preflop. I called and everyone checked the flop. I turned my straight and everyone checked it to me where I bet got raised, got one call, and another small reraise, plus it was a 100 room, so I just called. That one hand doesn't define me entirely as a player and I mentioned it was a bad play me and some friends were just having some fun. People call twice pot with Ace high when the board is paired twice to get their 2 dollars back, I'm sorry you have to lean on people who make bad decisions. A great deal of the people online have terrible judgment. Making giant calls is something I feel people should get away from, make the game cut and dried, not some fancy magic show.

[RISEorFall 0]

HAHAHAHA my account still works.one of the biggest mistakes a low - mid limit player can do it lay down too many hands. Too often you have the best hand. It'll cost you more over time to fold in spots where you should call than to call in spots where you think you should fold but you should not. Example: on Absolute the other night, I have 10 - 7 clubs in early mid position. Loose table, 2 limps before me, I limp, several others limp, BB raises, we all call. Flop is something like A 7 3. The SB bets, and the BB just calls. One other caller to me, I call. The pot's big enough that I want to see another card. I'm fairly sure I'm beat so I'm not raising. It won't protect my hand anyway. A raise if I better my hand on 4th street will. 2 or 3 more callers and the turn is a 10. Bet, call, and I raise, everyone folds but the SB who 3-bets. I call. River is another A. He bets. I'm beat right? Nothing he is betting I am beating. But I'm getting something like 15 - 1 to call, so I do. He flips over K 3, I win the pot. I find out an hour later he loves to do stuff like that.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

one of the biggest mistakes a low - mid limit player can do it lay down too many hands. Too often you have the best hand.

This may have more merit in online card games, especially the loose ones like you mentioned.

The difference between a hero and myself is that my dream is to get someone all in for a million dollars when I have a straight flush vs their quad kings, and heros dream about calling 1 million with ace high and having it be good.

I'm pretty sure what's being said here is that his dream is to win a monster hand by getting an inferior hand to call all-in, while for many new and inexperienced players, they want nothing more than to "showcase" how skilled they are by exposing someone's bluff.Exposing someone's play can be good, but I think, especially in live games, that it is far more profitable and safe in the long run to be able to lay down when you think you are beat rather than always calling down because you have a hunch the other guy has nothing.

[MasterLJ 0]

If you think laying down bottom pair is a big laydown, you're playing -EV somewhere!!In all seriousness, there's generally little point to keep calling people in low limit NL. If you honestly think that your bottom pair is the best, you need to raise/re-raise/bet out on the flop, get your opponent to fold.Ego kills players. People are so afraid to be bluffed out of the pot at the expense of their manhood, that they lose tons of hands and tons of dollars calling "bluffers" down with middle pair.In NL cash games it's better to stick with a straight up aggressive approach. Take control and realize there's no urgency. If you're not in control and you don't like the situation, fold and move on to the next hand.You're trying to win buy-ins, not a pissing contest.For example: You have AJos. UTG bets out with $5 (1/2 NL game), UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, you are next. I'd fold. I don't like re-raising there with AJos, it's just not strong enough. Both UTG and UTG+2 have demonstrated hand strength.I had this situation last night in the casino:Flop came J 9 3: Jack and 3 were of hearts.Turns out in my game there were 3 other callers after me (5 in the hand). I wouldn't have been satisfied with tptk... and I would have had to bet strong.Turns out UTG had AA, there were a few callers on the flop to UTG's 20 dollar bet (he lead out with 15, was a $5/$2 game). Q10 hung on to river the 8 and the nut straight.The point is, you want to be in the driver's seat.

[MasterLJ 0]

If you think laying down bottom pair is a big laydown, you're playing -EV somewhere!!In all seriousness, there's generally little point to keep calling people in low limit NL. If you honestly think that your bottom pair is the best, you need to raise/re-raise/bet out on the flop, get your opponent to fold.Ego kills players. People are so afraid to be bluffed out of the pot at the expense of their manhood, that they lose tons of hands and tons of dollars calling "bluffers" down with middle pair.In NL cash games it's better to stick with a straight up aggressive approach. Take control and realize there's no urgency. If you're not in control and you don't like the situation, fold and move on to the next hand.You're trying to win buy-ins, not a pissing contest.For example: You have AJos. UTG bets out with $5 (1/2 NL game), UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, you are next. I'd fold. I don't like re-raising there with AJos, it's just not strong enough. Both UTG and UTG+2 have demonstrated hand strength.I had this situation last night in the casino:Flop came J 9 3: Jack and 3 were of hearts.Turns out in my game there were 3 other callers after me (5 in the hand). I wouldn't have been satisfied with tptk... and I would have had to bet strong.Turns out UTG had AA, there were a few callers on the flop to UTG's 20 dollar bet (he lead out with 15, was a $5/$2 game). Q10 hung on to river the 8 and the nut straight.The point is, you want to be in the driver's seat.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I've always been of the approach that laying down isn't a big deal. Sure, you're probably getting bluffed out on occasion, but with as terrible as everyone plays, it's not super -EV to make these laydowns. This approach has been very profitable for me...avoiding difficult decisions.That said, over the past few weeks, I've been switching up my game and sometimes playing more passively against aggressive opponents. I've encouraged and picked off quite a few bluffs in that time. One of the best ways to make call downs easier is to not inflate the pot with a marginal hand.