loose low limit cash games

[Actuary 3]

I fully agree with you.We do tend to talk in terms of an ioslated bank roll environment here, as if all of us our pro-bound or without extra income.Nonetheless certainly there is no reason someone shouldn't feel free to play live or online just for the fun of it. And maybe make some money along the way.Later, if it becomes a more regular affair, BankRoll management should be addressed. :-)

[HCarl 0]

Agreed

[SomethingWicked 0]

I fully agree with you.We do tend to talk in terms of an ioslated bank roll environment here, as if all of us our pro-bound or without extra income.Nonetheless certainly there is no reason someone shouldn't feel free to play live or online just for the fun of it.  And maybe make some money along the way.Later, if it becomes a more regular affair, BankRoll management should be addressed. :-)

Well, put.

[scottrude 0]

I am blown away that this whole thread has been about poker. Nice work everyone. There are obviously some really good limit players giving advice in this thread. I have had the same run as described. Local 3-6 casino, I cant win because they chase and get lucky (My impression at the time). But after reading SSII and SSHE, I can tell you that these games are surely beatable. It seems to me as if you are either playing too many or too few hands. You can't play big cards only at this game. You get married to aces lose a few hands and you're done. You HAVE to play the hands that give you the best EV. And most importantly you have to play position on every hand. I think with this much action you need to see flops with small pairs, and suited connectors but not in early position, you dont want to call 3 more bets with 44. Also, allow yourself to fold when you think you are beat (your right you are beat). Finally, this is a quirky one, SLOW DOWN!. These tables get too fast too quickly. Pause for 5-10 seconds before calling or raising, soon the others will too. Think about each play, don't rely on emotion. Buy in for 40 BB, don't play if you are afraid of losing it. Do you ever beat this game???

[QMCertain 0]

I have just finished reading most of SSHE by Miller. I feel that I have a strong grasp of the concepts here, like raising to buy outs in big multiway pots, and tending to fold in smaller pots. However, the 2/4 game I usually play on PStars doesn't resemble the loose games described in SSHE. Where can I find these really loose games? I feel that if I was in a game where 6-8 people took a flop everytime, I'd be able to crush it. But alas, most of the pots that I play in are contested HU or 3-way. Because of this, my results are quite modest.Also, for anyone who has read SSHE, what main adjustments should I make to the book's recommended style of play for the 2/4 PStars game?

[HCarl 0]

If cardrooms are legal in your area, the lower limit live games (up to 4/8) are usually extremely loose. Most people are recreational players who are there to gamble.

[QMCertain 0]

I live in Toronto, so there aren't really any good cardrooms around that I know of. I've never played in a B&M before, but the closest one to my area that I can think of is Casino Niagara or Casino Rama.

[jerry441 0]

Please help me.What is the complete title of the book SSHE everyone is referencing?Thank you.

[AlanBostick 0]

What most of the replies are overlooking is that the game the original poster describes is a high-variance game. Another way to think about it, though, is that instead of being a wild rollercoaster of a 3-6 game, it's a very passive 12-24 game (or 15-30, if it's a four-raise max rather than three).You're playing two-card Omaha here. Every hand, even pocket aces, is a drawing hand. Play pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces. If you're playing pairs, you're hoping to flop a set. Overpairs to the board will hold up ... sometimes ... so you have to take them to the river. Otherwise, you're drawing to sets and boats, to straights, and to flushes.Because it's equivalent to a passive 12-24 game, you need a stack size correspondingly big: buy in for $300 rather than $100.Because every hand is a drawing hand, you will usually miss your draws. The key to winning in this game is to get the right price for drawing, so that when you do make your draws, it makes up for the times that you don't.If you can handle the swings, and accept that quite often your big pairs are going to be snapped off by someone who four-bet before the flop holding 10-4 offsuit, games like this can be very, very sweet.

[scottrude 0]

Small Stakes Hold Em By Ed Miller, David Sklansky, and Mason Malmuth

[Mattnxtc 0]

yes, you can ignore good bank roll mangement, if you have an endless source to replenish it.  but then, in effect, you have an infinite bank roll.the 300 BB rule is good for players who don't want to mess with the other stash.

Insisting that casual players need to have 300 BB to sit down at the lowest limit cash game is rediculous. Maybe that's why everyone here is playing micro limits. GL building the bankroll.

you seem to be hitting on why the casual player goes broke...think about it. the 300BB rule is a general standard for people are wanting to be more serious and want to make sure they have enough BB to sustain variance...if you wanna get technical pros will even say 500-1000BB is what you want.

[iggymcfly 0]

What most of the replies are overlooking is that the game the original poster describes is a high-variance game. Another way to think about it, though, is that instead of being a wild rollercoaster of a 3-6 game, it's a very passive 12-24 game (or 15-30, if it's a four-raise max rather than three).You're playing two-card Omaha here. Every hand, even pocket aces, is a drawing hand. Play pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces. If you're playing pairs, you're hoping to flop a set. Overpairs to the board will hold up ... sometimes ... so you have to take them to the river. Otherwise, you're drawing to sets and boats, to straights, and to flushes.Because it's equivalent to a passive 12-24 game, you need a stack size correspondingly big: buy in for $300 rather than $100.Because every hand is a drawing hand, you will usually miss your draws. The key to winning in this game is to get the right price for drawing, so that when you do make your draws, it makes up for the times that you don't.If you can handle the swings, and accept that quite often your big pairs are going to be snapped off by someone who four-bet before the flop holding 10-4 offsuit, games like this can be very, very sweet.

Bullsh1t. When I'm in Pullman, the only casino I can get to has one game and it's 3/6. Half the time it plays wild and wooly like that, and in about 20 or 30 sessions (averaging 5 hours each), I only lost $300 once. The one time I lost that much, it was playing 5-handed, it was getting capped preflop almost every time, and I didn't win one pot for over 2 hours. Not even throwing away winners; just went completely card-dead. Anyway, the point is, that to play a typical 3/6 game, you don't need anywhere near the bankroll requirements that people are suggesting here. Just set aside $200 for every trip, and if you win, then you already have your buy-ins for the next time.

[Actuary 3]

we already figured this out folks.BR management is critical if you don't want/cant fund your poker hobby from other sources.If you play for fun, like I bowl, then do whatever you want.geesh. The simplist threads get so long.

[DrZebra 0]

Look up Izmet Fekali's "Playing with the fish"There was a thread about this guy recently and his unorthodox approach to "no fold'em hold'em" --he rapes the game.

[AlanBostick 0]

Bullsh1t. When I'm in Pullman, the only casino I can get to has one game and it's 3/6. Half the time it plays wild and wooly like that, and in about 20 or 30 sessions (averaging 5 hours each), I only lost $300 once. The one time I lost that much, it was playing 5-handed, it was getting capped preflop almost every time, and I didn't win one pot for over 2 hours. Not even throwing away winners; just went completely card-dead. Anyway, the point is, that to play a typical 3/6 game, you don't need anywhere near the bankroll requirements that people are suggesting here. Just set aside $200 for every trip, and if you win, then you already have your buy-ins for the next time.

Sounds to me like you're sacrificing EV to reduce variance.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

What most of the replies are overlooking is that the game the original poster describes is a high-variance game.  Another way to think about it, though, is that instead of being a wild rollercoaster of a 3-6 game, it's a very passive 12-24 game (or 15-30, if it's a four-raise max rather than three).You're playing two-card Omaha here.  Every hand, even pocket aces, is a drawing hand.  Play pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces.  If you're playing pairs, you're hoping to flop a set.  Overpairs to the board will hold up ... sometimes ... so you have to take them to the river.  Otherwise, you're drawing to sets and boats, to straights, and to flushes.Because it's equivalent to a passive 12-24 game, you need a stack size correspondingly big:  buy in for $300 rather than $100.Because every hand is a drawing hand, you will usually miss your draws.  The key to winning in this game is to get the right price for drawing, so that when you do make your draws, it makes up for the times that you don't.If you can handle the swings, and accept that quite often your big pairs are going to be snapped off by someone who four-bet before the flop holding 10-4 offsuit, games like this can be very, very sweet.

Bullsh1t. When I'm in Pullman, the only casino I can get to has one game and it's 3/6. Half the time it plays wild and wooly like that, and in about 20 or 30 sessions (averaging 5 hours each), I only lost $300 once. The one time I lost that much, it was playing 5-handed, it was getting capped preflop almost every time, and I didn't win one pot for over 2 hours. Not even throwing away winners; just went completely card-dead. Anyway, the point is, that to play a typical 3/6 game, you don't need anywhere near the bankroll requirements that people are suggesting here. Just set aside $200 for every trip, and if you win, then you already have your buy-ins for the next time.

I think Alan has some clue what he's talking about. Read his blog and you'll realize, he's been around the block a time or two, and knows quite a bit about which he speaks.

[HCarl 0]

I'm sick of this thread.... I think it's rediculous to tell someone that they need 300 bb to sit down at the lowest limit live game they can find. Given that you don't have a 300 bb bankroll, why is it wrong to play a lower variance style? You'll still win. Playing a low variance game with a bankroll of 100 bb is a good way to build your bankroll up to 300 bb and higher. Of course this only works as long as you're playing weak enough opponents that they don't figure out your strategy, but that's usually the case in 4/8 and lower (possibly higher).

[AlanBostick 0]

I'm sick of this thread.... I think it's rediculous to tell someone that they need 300 bb to sit down at the lowest limit live game they can find. Given that you don't have a 300 bb bankroll, why is it wrong to play a lower variance style? You'll still win. Playing a low variance game with a bankroll of 100 bb is a good way to build your bankroll up to 300 bb and higher. Of course this only works as long as you're playing weak enough opponents that they don't figure out your strategy, but that's usually the case in 4/8 and lower (possibly higher).

I didn't say 300 BB. I said 300 DOLLARS. Try reading for content next time?

[iggymcfly 0]

I don't get what you're saying at all here. All I was saying is that I just play my normal game, and I hardly ever need more than $300. I don't get where you thought I was trying to reduce variance.In fact, my mistakes came when I got bored and started playing more hands to try to increase variance.Honestly, though I might have overestimated how weak that 3-6 game was that I played. I went and played in a 5/10 kill game in Missoula last night (with real loose kill requirements; over half the pots were 10/20), and it was a lot looser than the 3/6 game I was used to. I think the problem with the Pullman game is that you get all these nitty college students that can't really afford to put $100 down, so they scream at the weak players every time they take a bad beat, until the really bad players either leave or wise up and only the decent players are left.

[AlanBostick 0]

I don't get what you're saying at all here. All I was saying is that I just play my normal game, and I hardly ever need more than $300. I don't get where you thought I was trying to reduce variance.In fact, my mistakes came when I got bored and started playing more hands to try to increase variance.

First of all, I was attempting to respond to you more politely than you responded to me. I'm virtually certain I succeeded there, seeing as I managed to completely avoid using words like "bullsh1t." Secondly, in the game the original poster described -- $3-$6 hold'em with multiway action with capped betting on all streets, including the river -- to take a hand to the river is going to cost a player $48 and to show down a hand costs $72. That's half to three quarters of a $100 buy-in. A player who misses two draws after sitting down is going to be all-in the next hand, if she bought in for $100. A $200 buy-in means that our luckless hero will have to rebuy after missing four draws in a row. I defy you to look me in the eye and tell me you have never in your life missed four 2:1 draws in a row.Thirdly, just because you aren't aware that your playing style might have the effect of sacrificing EV to reduce variance doesn't mean that it isn't happening. You say you're playing your normal game. Has it occurred to you that the game conditions we're talking about here aren't normal, and that your normal game might not be optimal?Fourthly, there are many sorts of wild-loose games. OP is talking about the kind where the action remains wild to the end. The sort where the betting is capped before the flop but proceeds more cautiously after the flop is a different animal requiring a different strategy. Different still is the game where two or more players are pummeling the rest of the table by playing pump-it-or-dump-it. And so on. Is the game in Pullman really the same sort that OP is describing?

[Actuary 3]

my favorite threads are ones where the OP is long gone and others stay to argue or misunderstand each other over trivial differences.

[thehidden 0]

I think you need to be a more selective chaser. 1. Do the players that are capping out usually have anything?2. If I catch my card to get my flush or straight draw are their bigger staright or flush draw possibilities out there.....nothing worse then catching your card and someone having bigger staright or flush.3. As was said earlier.....when you think negative bad things happen.4. Tighten up a little bit and drill some of the chasers when you DO have the nuts. This might slow them down a little bit when you are in the pots.5. You may need to bump up a level to get away form the insane play but make sure it is something your bankroll can handle.

hello, new poster to the strat catagory. I find the adive by JEFROCK interesting, esspecially #5. It's an interesting proposition to move up in limits so your more skilled level of play is rewarded. But conversley couldn't your winning end up still being the same as more sophisticated play could be smelled out more often, and you won't be gettting those 7-8 players preflop? I find this interesting, because it's actually what i'm planning on doing when i get back to Toronto. I have been out in Edmonton playing 3/6 for 7 months and it's just god awful, I was a consistant winner for 5 months but currently i'm on close to a 200 BB downswing, and can't crack these fish. I find myself licking my lips at the prospect of getting into 5/10 (played a few times at Rama before i left). Anyone have any pros and cons they can throw out there for the OP and I?ThanksIra

[thehidden 0]

I live in Toronto, so there aren't really any good cardrooms around that I know of. I've never played in a B&M before, but the closest one to my area that I can think of is Casino Niagara or Casino Rama.

rama spreads a juicey 5/10 game...port perry i have heard has a cool room. As for cardrooms i know of one but never been to it, bit sketchy i hear

[Razor 0]

my favorite threads are ones where the OP is long gone and others stay to argue or misunderstand each other over trivial differences.

LOL ... I'm still here, just reading for the time being though.

[Razor 0]

I think you need to be a more selective chaser. 1. Do the players that are capping out usually have anything?2. If I catch my card to get my flush or straight draw are their bigger staright or flush draw possibilities out there.....nothing worse then catching your card and someone having bigger staright or flush.3. As was said earlier.....when you think negative bad things happen.4. Tighten up a little bit and drill some of the chasers when you DO have the nuts. This might slow them down a little bit when you are in the pots.5. You may need to bump up a level to get away form the insane play but make sure it is something your bankroll can handle.

hello, new poster to the strat catagory. I find the adive by JEFROCK interesting, esspecially #5. It's an interesting proposition to move up in limits so your more skilled level of play is rewarded. But conversley couldn't your winning end up still being the same as more sophisticated play could be smelled out more often, and you won't be gettting those 7-8 players preflop? I find this interesting, because it's actually what i'm planning on doing when i get back to Toronto. I have been out in Edmonton playing 3/6 for 7 months and it's just god awful, I was a consistant winner for 5 months but currently i'm on close to a 200 BB downswing, and can't crack these fish. I find myself licking my lips at the prospect of getting into 5/10 (played a few times at Rama before i left). Anyone have any pros and cons they can throw out there for the OP and I?ThanksIra

Well, I'll tell you my plan of attack for the next time I sit down. I used to rake it in at these tables. I mean, I'd have to pick up the girlfriend from work, so I'd hit the casino for a half hour and I was sure to rake in $100, it was sweet. But alas, the tables have turned, and I'm fighting long hours and pulling little or no profit when I do. I've tried to tighten up a ton! ... pretty much only playing top 10 hands, and playing them hard, but this definitely not working. These hands aren't as profitable obviously in such a loose game. And if I'm only playing these hands, and letting them go when they miss, I don't feel like I'm giving myself a good enough chance to make hands. Soo.....My next experiment will be to see a gawd awful amount of flops and ram and jam only when I hit monsters. I think everyone's strategy for these games should be playing well after the flop, and not worrying about pre-flop requirements as much. I think the small amount I'll lose, in calling preflop bets will be much less than the huge pots I'll scoop when I've got it. And post flop play is easy in these scenarios. When you hit it big, bet! and raise.. that's it ... you know ppl are going to call you. If you flop quads or a boat, bet and raise ... no one is folding!!! .. This is why the pots are so big in the first place. If you flop top 2, or an oesd or flush draw try to see the turn cheap, or just dump it and wait for a better opportunity. Anyway, this is my next trial ... I know I've got a lot of improving to do, and this site is helpful, so time to put some of this advice to work.cheers,Ray.