i need help playing against bad players

[Tantalar 0]

I know it may sound wierd, but I just cant beat bad poker players. Maybe im overbetting the pot in certain situations. I dont know, I just can't win. Maybe im playing too loose...I have a home game every friday and sometimes saturday night. We used to play one big rebuy tournament with like 6 people, and it would last forever, and we would have a big reward for first place. I mean with only a $10 buyin and infinite rebuys until like, an hour and a half, the ammount of money would really grow!First off, One of my friends goes to the same community college as me, so we both live in our home town still. The kids we play with are roughly a year and a half younger than us. BOK is pretty much a Jackal, as described by hellmuth. ROY is a calling station. BRIAN is a Jackal and a Calling station. CASEY is a calling station and NEVER raises EVER. LIZZI is a tight/agressive phil ivey type who really knows how to play the game.Lizzi goes to the same college as me, (community college) and we are both at about the same level in skills. We have both read a ton of books, watched tons of poker, played lots of online poker, and lots of live poker. We both went to the casino and had a great time and made slight profit including travel and room expenses. (Although we are only 18 and 19 we went to Turningstone in NY)Also there's ALAN who is a little tighter than lizzi and a LITTLE easier to bluff. They are both really good players. ALAN has gone off to college and only plays when he comes home for something like thanksgiving.So we get together at ROYS house. We draw for seating, and start playing. we start with 2,500 in chips, and the blind structure is 10/20,20/50,50/100 and then doubles from there. And they raise every 45 minutes.I like to play tight agressive. But I cant pass up a suited connecter, and I can't pass up a pocket pair. I'm not like Sam Farha at all, but I enjoy seeing a flop and outplaying my opponent on the flop. The trouble is that I keep trying to outplay dangerous, wreckless, bad players. For example, this is a common problem I have.I raise pre flop with KJ of hearts from middle position since it was folded to me. Lets assume I have an equal ammount in chips as everyone else (2,500) Now since the blinds are 10/20 ill raise 80 more. Lets assume that only ROY goes to the flop with me. The flop is Kc 5c 10d. Now naturally I am not going to slowplay this. If he had AJ then he can hit a gutshot or an ace to win. Not to mention he could have an open ended striaght draw, or he could have a flush draw. I cant slow play this. Seriously, I need to bet to get him to fold. So I bet the pot, since its not that big of a pot. And I dont want him to get the right odds to draw at it. Naturally he calls. I know I have the bets hand right now, on the flop, but I just know im going to get sucked out on the turnThe turn card is a 8 of diamonds. Great, now there are 2 flush draws out there. I decide its time to raise it up. I dont want him to see the next card without paying dearly for it. The pot is now larger, so Im going to bet about 80% of it, certainly enough to scare away someone with just a flush draw. Ok, he calls. Right now Im thinking he might have a similar hand to me. What else could he have, How could someone go this far with a flush draw? he must have a soilid hand I think, he must.Well the river card is a a 2 of clubs. That's scary, I think he has a flush draw. He usually doesnt take a top pair this far, but what else could he have. Did he actually call me down that far with just a flush draw? If i dont bet he's going to think im weak, and maybe bet with a middle pair, or top pair mediocre kicker. I have to bet something. So I bet half the pot. I want him to call with top pair mediocre kicker, or medium pair. I pray and pray that he doesnt have a flush. So I bet half the pot, and he raises me about the same ammount that I raise. Great, he obviously hit a flush. But I have to pay it off, dont I? I mean I bet half the pot, he raised the same ammount that I just bet, so I cant not call here. I have to pay it off. I cant assume "hes got the flushg every time a 3rd suited card comes down" Logic tells me that theres no reason to call that far, and them make a weak raise on the river when you finally DO hit your lucky card.Anyway, I do pay it off, and he shows me 9c 4c. 9c 4c? what a joke. he called a bet 4x the BB with 9c 4c? with only him and myself in the hand? Incredible. that's just terrible on so many levels. Sure, he had position, but with a hand like that, in the hands of a player who rarely bluffs, and NEVER uses a read on an opponent... what the hell... I cant believe it, and the whole table laughs about how I got sucked out and owned. Great, im down a fair ammount of chips, now that ive been sucked out by that idiot.I don't let it get to me though, because I dont go on tilt very often. After all, it wasnt that bad of a suckout. Even though he played it horribly, and got lucky, I dont care. Im going to get rewarded every 4/5 times that that happens, right? Yeah right, not at ROYs house.Now when I play against LIZZI, I can actually check raise him with King high when the flop is not very dangerous. I mean like, Ill miss the flop completely. And it will be something like 10h 5d 2c. And it will be checked around to lizzi. I will just check, because it didnt help my KJ of clubs very much. Now Its checked to lizzi and he bets a ton. He loves to overbet the pot to try to steal it, and only lately have I Picked up on this one, but ive check raised him and stolen the pot from him with junk, because I know that he's raising me with junk. And even if he did have something like middle pair, My check raise would get respect from him, because hes a good player, and he is capable of folding the best hand to a bluff. (I dont mean that he will, because he is hard to bluff, but he can if you play your cards smart) Essentially, you can actually use strategy to beat him. And the same goes for ALAN. They are by no means TIGHT/WEAK at all.Anyway, Every time I play in these games at ROYS house, I get sucked out and lose. I always lose with the best hand going in. Someone who called my raise out of position with junk gets lucky, and its the end of the story.In a situation like this, with the blinds the way that they are, should I be playing tighter and seeing less flops, so I get sucked out less? I was reading in sklansky's book about playing more hands against bad players so you can outplay them. But there is really no way to outplay the fish/donkeys in this game. Now im not saying that I read what every book tells me and just follow it word by word, but I wanted to give his advice a try. It just hasnt been working. I feel like Im trying to play 50/100 NL holdem with people who are playing .01/.02 NL holdem. And I pretty much am. Im at a different level than BOK, ROY, BRIAN, and CASEY. LIZZI and ALAN are too. I need to build up my bankroll though, because I seriously can't play well against bad players. It's just something about losing my entire tournament because some idiot called me down with a gutshot straight draw... Its more enjoyable to play the way I like to play. The way I like to play is like DN, cause I like raising when I have the best hand, or when i KNOW my opponent is weak, and being able to beat them with my pair of 5s because I KNOW all they have is 2 overcards. Anyway, yeah... How do you play people who suck at poker?I recently lost $69 in online poker because Id flop a top pair, and get called down when I went all in by just AK, two overcards. BOOM, King on the turn, I lose $15that happened about 4 times and it was all gone. Brutal suckouts. That's what its like at ROYS house. How can I beat them? Do you guys think I should play TIGHT?

[Suited_Up 2]

The post was long, and I only read the first paragraph, but I came up with the problem already....If you're using anything Phil Hellmuth says in his book, as strategy... That's the problem.Forget you read that book.

[No_Neck 0]

you shouldn't try out outplay/ bluff someone that is going to call anyway. Try showing down some quality hands for a while then make a move.

[Lee2k 0]

I tried to read this but lost attention mid way, sorry......damn tv

[Ktiger48 0]

when playing against bad players, i generally wait for big hands and push hard with them. no point in really trying to make sophisticated plays or bluffing, because a bad player will call

[HelioCentric 0]

when playing against bad players, i generally wait for big hands and push hard with them. no point in really trying to make sophisticated plays or bluffing, because a bad player will call

[AlphaOmega 0]

No offense, but if you can't beat bad players, you have problems. Not to worry, because this isnt an unheard of problem. It involves what's known as "changing gears" or switching styles to best attack your opponents. If your opponents are loose/passive, then being loose yourself is generally -EV. Tighten up, and pound them when you have the nuts or close to. Above anything else it is important to be patient. These players want to give you their money, you just have to make sure that you have a hand to cooperate.Don't bluff.

[ChipLeader7 0]

Ok i read the entire post and can sorta relate to it. I play in a simmilair game about every other week. What you need to do is just play tight. Wait for strong hands and bet them hard the whole way. Theres nothing you can do about suckouts there going to happen and you have to get used to them. Dont try any crazy bluff plays that you saw Ivey make on the wpt a donkey doesnt even relize you check raised them.

[Jennings7 0]

I'm at work and have nothing better to do than read this post, yet I still lost interest about half way through.

[whoomprat 0]

I don't know what's more ridiculous, losing poker players blaming it on poor competition or rigged websites.

[kiwi 0]

Lets face it, you're using wrong strategy. Just play solid. What's the point of trying to outplay opponents that don't think the way you need them to think in order for your 'plays' to work? And don't be afraid of going all-in with a decent hand on the turn. Also, how many of these tourneys have you played together?

[PokerZealot 0]

woa, you said a mouthfull

[Stylin_Fish 0]

Just make quads like I did in a headsup match and you'll win easily.It may sound stupid but Online, especially in pokerroom SNGs(ESPECIALLY the $5 dollar ones) I just play super aggressive when I get a monster hand and I always seem to do pretty well in them.I change my play up a little bit, but I'm just really aggressive in those SNGs.Also, be willing to raise a lot when you get to 4 handed, they fold faster than superman on laundry day. It helps a little to get paid off later. I was super aggressive with junk hands and when I actually made quad aces, I took all of his money.