PocketBoat 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 One of the most transparent shell games is to complain on others' behalfs when the only one who is complaining is the complainer. DN, you are upset YOU weren't chosen as one of the 3 exemptions. You are probably doubly irritated that Bill Fillmaf (I mean Phil Hellmuth) was one of the 3 chosen. Please don't try to make us believe you really think that the folks you mention who earned the right to play in the tourney are really that upset about $500 in lost equity..or having to play against a 3% larger field. Come on...YOU are upset not FOR the others but for yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
tobytobey 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 YSALGKY Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I made a HUGE stink about this at the very first Circuit event. I made sure to talk to everyone I could about how it was important that they stuck to their guns... so yes, I'm upset, but if I was asked to play I would have declined because I like to sleep at night. Link to post Share on other sites
Oziumrules 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 One of the most transparent shell games is to complain on others' behalfs when the only one who is complaining is the complainer. DN, you are upset YOU weren't chosen as one of the 3 exemptions. You are probably doubly irritated that Bill Fillmaf (I mean Phil Hellmuth) was one of the 3 chosen. Please don't try to make us believe you really think that the folks you mention who earned the right to play in the tourney are really that upset about $500 in lost equity..or having to play against a 3% larger field. Come on...YOU are upset not FOR the others but for yourself.You are obviously missing the boat here buddy, its has to do with principals. If they can get a away with this...what next, take away your spot in a qualifier because you earned online and not live? How would you feel in this situation? Link to post Share on other sites
PocketBoat 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 I got the point...and I'm quite positive that just as with any contest, giveaway, promotion, there is fine print that gives the offerer the right to change the rules, cancel the event, etc... How would I feel? I would be thrilled they didn't cancel the event and that I still get a freeroll at a lot of $. If any of those 100 have a serious issue with that, they have a complex. Link to post Share on other sites
princeof56k 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Daniels blog is correct. Giving these players a free ride was a very bad idea.We all understand why they want these players in the tourny. Its the same reason that the TV networks want the Yankees in the World Series or the Lakers in the Finals. But they just dont put these teams in the championship. They have to play by the rules just like everyone else and qualify. If they dont qualify, too bad.The most important thing in any sport or competition is for fans to believe that the competition is fair and real. And while this incident seems small and harmless, its opens up a whole new world of conspiracies. The next thing you know someone will be complaining that the tourny was rigged to get higher ratings. If that ever happens, it could seriously hurt the game of poker for a long time.So you cant give certain players special treatment. Just the slight implication that certain players will be given special treatment to generate ratings is a bad thing. Link to post Share on other sites
PocketBoat 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 I made a HUGE stink about this at the very first Circuit event. I made sure to talk to everyone I could about how it was important that they stuck to their guns... so yes, I'm upset, but if I was asked to play I would have declined because I like to sleep at night.surely there are more important things in your life to be an activist and make a stink over... Link to post Share on other sites
PocketBoat 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 Daniels blog is correct. Giving these players a free ride was a very bad idea.We all understand why they want these players in the tourny. Its the same reason that the TV networks want the Yankees in the World Series or the Lakers in the Finals. But they just dont put these teams in the championship. They have to play by the rules just like everyone else and qualify. If they dont qualify, too bad.The most important thing in any sport or competition is for fans to believe that the competition is fair and real. And while this incident seems small and harmless, its opens up a whole new world of conspiracies. The next thing you know someone will be complaining that the tourny was rigged to get higher ratings. If that ever happens, it could seriously hurt the game of poker for a long time.So you cant give certain players special treatment. Just the slight implication that certain players will be given special treatment to generate ratings is a bad thing.You are comparing apples and oranges...a promotion (offering a freerool) is different than a competition. Whoever is putting on a promotional event, always leaves themsleves the right to change the format, the participants, or cancel the event altogether. It's part of promotions. The World Series is not a promotional event...this is. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I made a HUGE stink about this at the very first Circuit event. I made sure to talk to everyone I could about how it was important that they stuck to their guns... so yes, I'm upset, but if I was asked to play I would have declined because I like to sleep at night.surely there are more important things in your life to be an activist and make a stink over... Actually, this is a very important issue to me and it always has been. As for your othe rpost about it being a promotion, there is one key thing you are missing: people PAID money to be a part of this promotion. It wasn't a freeroll, as there was no chance you could get in for free. Link to post Share on other sites
Rowdy 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Although I don't post here much, I would like to say that I can see both sides of this issue, Daniel's concerns, and even the first poster's concerns. I agree that Daniel's blog came off (if you were just the casual reader that has not followed Daniel and his beliefs) as just sour grapes. But I truly from following all that Daniel has had to say over the past several years, know that he is just not STEAMED because he was not invited. I think he has a legitimate point here, i.e. changing the rules mid stream, the politics involved, the money and obvious "poker" lobbying here that is involved in the world of poker and mass media and profit.On the other hand, I guess I don't feel so slighted in that, I think letting these three particular players (especially Doyle Brunson and Johnny Chan, as I won't talk about Phil Helmuth, as he irritates the hell out of me with his whiney ass attitude), anyway, I think letting in men that have continually honored the game and brought it to the level that it is today is, in my eyes a non-pro poker player enthusiast who has followed the game for years, a honor to see these men invited. I think that for those who won their seat into this event getting the privilege to say that they waded through a field with these great champions (in addition to the qualifiers like Phil Ivey and Chris Ferguson) would be truly a GREAT WIN if you were able to place high or win this tourney that included these elite players. I think any of the qualifiers that are not PROs would feel this same way. I also heard that other professionals, specifically Chris "Jesus" Ferguson was quoted as saying that he thought it was "with great respect" that Doyle and Johnny were given a seat in this event, but I didn't hear this from Jesus' mouth so take it as you will.Anyway, those are my thoughts. Daniel, I am sorry that this has upset you, but coming from a poker novice who would be happy to put my money into this event, even if this little curve ball had been thrown at me at the last minute. At least they took the pros that truly deserve this honor this year and not just because they have the pro name (meaning each of these men either won a bracelet or in Phil's case, cashed severel times and made it to final tables). FLAME AWAY EVERYONE - "Getting my fire extinguisher ready" Link to post Share on other sites
jaaaaakke 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 DN: have you talked with chan/brunson/hellmuth about their seat in the TOC? what do they have to say for it... im sure they wont give up the chance to win a million bucks...wouldnt they feel somewhat sheepish joining a tournament they never qualifed for? Link to post Share on other sites
princeof56k 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 You are comparing apples and oranges...a promotion (offering a freerool) is different than a competition. Whoever is putting on a promotional event, always leaves themsleves the right to change the format, the participants, or cancel the event altogether. It's part of promotions. The World Series is not a promotional event...this is.First, the TOC is a competition. Thats why its being televised. People are watching to see these people compete for the prize. Just because they call it a freeroll doesnt mean its not a competive event.Second, people played in the other matches with the full knowledge that they were also playing for a chance to be in the TOC. Its unknown as to whether or not it affected people play. You can consider those other events qualifying matches. Just like a larger scale tournament. You can not change the rules and structure of a tournament just because your not satisfied with the results. Seriously how far do you take this. Why not just put Doyle at the final table? Link to post Share on other sites
PocketBoat 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 I made a HUGE stink about this at the very first Circuit event. I made sure to talk to everyone I could about how it was important that they stuck to their guns... so yes, I'm upset, but if I was asked to play I would have declined because I like to sleep at night.surely there are more important things in your life to be an activist and make a stink over... Actually, this is a very important issue to me and it always has been. As for your othe rpost about it being a promotion, there is one key thing you are missing: people PAID money to be a part of this promotion. It wasn't a freeroll, as there was no chance you could get in for free.They got what they were promised...a free entry to a tournament to win $2 million. If the offerer decided to offer it to others as well, that's their right. The 100 you are defending got what they were promised. Link to post Share on other sites
chrozzo 19 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 You are comparing apples and oranges...a promotion (offering a freerool) is different than a competition. Whoever is putting on a promotional event, always leaves themsleves the right to change the format, the participants, or cancel the event altogether. It's part of promotions. The World Series is not a promotional event...this is.First, the TOC is a competition. Thats why its being televised. People are watching to see these people compete for the prize. Just because they call it a freeroll doesnt mean its not a competive event.Second, people played in the other matches with the full knowledge that they were also playing for a chance to be in the TOC. Its unknown as to whether or not it affected people play. You can consider those other events qualifying matches. Just like a larger scale tournament. You can not change the rules and structure of a tournament just because your not satisfied with the results. Seriously how far do you take this. Why not just put Doyle at the final table?Good point. They'll take it as far as they can to make endorsement dollars from those who watch to see Phill Hellmuth Pi ss and moan about losing. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 of course because of the drastically front-weighted payout structure if one of those 3 wins it will cost the legit qualifyer who finishes 2nd $675,000. Link to post Share on other sites
Webslayer 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I agree with DN. I'd be upset. Probably would say something to someone if I had qualified. This is not some weak freeroll where people got in on some cheap $40 internet tournament. The players that qualified are good legit players. They are not there for the story. They want the money. They are over that fangirl "OMG!!! Doyle is at my table *SQUEEEE!!!!*" crap. The point is, it was a qualifier compitition, not an invitational. Who else did they invite? The tournament director's second cousin? Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 DN: have you talked with chan/brunson/hellmuth about their seat in the TOC? what do they have to say for it... im sure they wont give up the chance to win a million bucks...wouldnt they feel somewhat sheepish joining a tournament they never qualifed for? Doyle Brunson agreed with me 100%. He felt like it was unfair. Phil, on the other hand is your prototypical "yes man" and somehow thinks he just "deserves" it because he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. As for Johnny, he had no comment, lol. Link to post Share on other sites
typesick 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 daniel, did phil actually say that...or are you just making jokes? Link to post Share on other sites
mr_english 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I think the whole thing is totally unfair, I asked my two kids and they both think I am great at poker and if anyone should be invited to play for 2 mil for free it should have been me, think I need to have my girls write to the tournament director and complain about this obvious omission on their part, as I am sure I would have got there anyway maybe they can still seat me at the final table.I agree we Daniel 100% the whole thing is a rip off if they change the rules after you have your money invested. But if Doyle really agrees with you why is he playing ? Link to post Share on other sites
ajs510 122 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Because this is how Doyle makes his living and you don't turn down a free chance at 7 figures...You can't blame the players for accepting a free ride, you have to blame the organizers who gave it to them. It's all well and good that, given a choice, DN would have taken the moral high ground. I can honestly say that if I had received a phone call out of the clear blue sky asking if I wanted a free shot at 7 figures just for showing up, all I would say is "Thank you very much for the opportunity, see you then." I don't think there are many people who could afford to pass up that kind of opportunity. The fact that the organizers shattered their own rules just because they didn't necessarily like the field those rules resulted in is disgraceful. The fact that Hellmuth, Brunson, and Chan allowed themselves to benefit from that is human. Link to post Share on other sites
chrozzo 19 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 daniel, did phil actually say that...or are you just making jokes?I dont think that matters, you know he was THINKING it. Link to post Share on other sites
Stackraider 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Remember when Tiger Woods started to dominate everyone. All the other players bithced and complained that all the attention was going to Tiger. Tiger was responsible for changing the game of golf for the better. Even though all the attention was on him, more people were watching. More people watching meant bigger prize pools and bigger endorsements. Not just for Tiger, but for all the golfers.Same thing is true here. You put Johnny Chan, Doyle Brunson, and Phil Hellmuth in the tourney and more people will watch. DN, I know you are able to look at the big picture and see that anything that will grow the game is good for all poker players. WSOP is trying to grow their brand which will result in huge payoffs for you and all the other great players. Link to post Share on other sites
sniper6121 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Remember when Tiger Woods started to dominate everyone. All the other players bithced and complained that all the attention was going to Tiger. Tiger was responsible for changing the game of golf for the better. Even though all the attention was on him, more people were watching. More people watching meant bigger prize pools and bigger endorsements. Not just for Tiger, but for all the golfers.Same thing is true here. You put Johnny Chan, Doyle Brunson, and Phil Hellmuth in the tourney and more people will watch. DN, I know you are able to look at the big picture and see that anything that will grow the game is good for all poker players. WSOP is trying to grow their brand which will result in huge payoffs for you and all the other great players.I agree with you but I think Daniel was just upset with the way they handled the situation they should have said we will be having 3 professional players that will also be added to the tournament. If they would have said that in the begining then no one would be pissed about the way this tournament is playing out. I hope the WSOP learns from this HUGE mistake and doesnt ever repeat it. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Doyle Brunson agreed with me 100%. He felt like it was unfair. Phil, on the other hand is your prototypical "yes man" and somehow thinks he just "deserves" it because he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.why is doyle playing then? how is he any better than phil? Link to post Share on other sites
sniper6121 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Doyle Brunson agreed with me 100%. He felt like it was unfair. Phil, on the other hand is your prototypical "yes man" and somehow thinks he just "deserves" it because he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.why is doyle playing then? how is he any better than phil?Doyle hasnt said he is or isnt playing yet... and to think Phil is better than Doyle hahahaha Phil is horrible just start messing with his head and anyone can beat him. Link to post Share on other sites
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