why is hellmuth such a fish?

[TS Clark 0]

My little bit of psychoanalysis on Hellmuth is that a lot of his cash game woes come from the fact that he's said that he's averse to losing a lot of money. After he won his world championship, he lost almost all of his money trying to play the big cash games. I'm not sure that this kind of near-disaster would ever fully wear off a Midwestern boy brought up in a very traditional academic household. Let's face it, Hellmuth does not come from a risktaker kind of background and he doesn't appear to be a "gambler" personality -- which I think it essential to play big cash games.The effect of his conservative upbringing, near financial ruin, pathological need to appear to be the smartest guy in the room when it comes to poker (which causes the massive tilt issues several people have referenced), and the fact that he almost exclusively plays tourneys (which are a whole different animal than cash games) combine to make him a weak-tighty in cash games. And people like Farha, Brunson, Daniel, Harman, Giang, Chan, etc. just feast on people with a risk-averse, weak-tight outlook.That's my two cents from the analyst's couch.

[thatguy 0]

I heard that Hellmuth kills the big game on a regular basis. I mean, he is a nine time world champion, and he only loses to bad beats. How could he be a fish?

[Loismustdie 0]

Hellmuth tilts easily, and when he does, he plays very weakly, making him easy to bully around, from what I can see. Loses a ton playing on UB 50/100 NL as well.

...cause I am sure you watch him play online ALLLLLL the time. All I can say is....he sure must make ALLLOOOOTTTT of money from outside ventures to make up for how horrible of a poker player he is.

He has a few books that appeal to the masses for the war stories and there simplistic approach to the game- I used to have a lot of respect for Phil but watching him in the WSOP this year has shown me how out of touch he really is with the game. As far as how much he loses, I am not sure that he really does anymore, in that on UB he's never really buying in for much, and what he does buy in with is probably house money. Point being that to be a great player you have got to have some gamble in you- I don't see that in Phil anymore- he doesn't have what it takes to get through these big fields.

[GoldenTee 0]

Hellmuth should put his ego aside and follow the examples given by Chris Ferguson, TJ Cloutier and other great tournament players who rarely play cash games. Stick to what you are best at and avoid -EV situations. Who remembers Jordan playing baseball?

[GrinderMJ 0]

Hellmuth tilts easily, and when he does, he plays very weakly, making him easy to bully around, from what I can see. Loses a ton playing on UB 50/100 NL as well.

...cause I am sure you watch him play online ALLLLLL the time. All I can say is....he sure must make ALLLOOOOTTTT of money from outside ventures to make up for how horrible of a poker player he is.

He has a few books that appeal to the masses for the war stories and there simplistic approach to the game- I used to have a lot of respect for Phil but watching him in the WSOP this year has shown me how out of touch he really is with the game. As far as how much he loses, I am not sure that he really does anymore, in that on UB he's never really buying in for much, and what he does buy in with is probably house money. Point being that to be a great player you have got to have some gamble in you- I don't see that in Phil anymore- he doesn't have what it takes to get through these big fields.

I disagree with that, i think the hand where he put it all in with ak vs. the kj shows that he is willing to gamble pre flop in spots when he thinks he has the best of it. I think his problem is he is just incredibly unstable. You would think that a world champion who has been playing for 20 something years would be able to control himself at the table. What donkey plays has he not seen in twenty years of playing? Why does it still suprise him, and why can't he deal with bad players? It's pathetic to watch a guy berate players for making bad plays. HE even talks down to people who flat out play him, example: guy raises with qq, phil defends bb with j10 off. Phil dark checks and the flop is ax10 and the qq guy checks. Turn is a non threatening x and the qq guy value bets, which phil calls. River is another unthreatening x and the qq guy value bets it again which Phil calls. After he sees teh qq he makes a sarcastic comment about value betting qq twice and how it was "strong poker". He got outplayed and paid a guy off with the worst hand, but somehow the other guy was playing bad poker. I dont enjoy watching him play and I personally hope he doesn't win another big tournament because he is such a bad example of how to act at the table.

[puros 0]

You all are just jealous of Phil. He is in complete control and uses his stunts to SELL MORE PHIL. More sponsorships, more books, movd DVDS. Come on he is in it for the Business not for the cards. Very smart guy!!! So get off him!!

[thatguy 0]

You all are just jealous of Phil. He is in complete control and uses his stunts to SELL MORE PHIL. More sponsorships, more books, movd DVDS. Come on he is in it for the Business not for the cards. Very smart guy!!! So get off him!!

You got me. How did you know? I hope I'm exactly like Phil one day.(SW)

[GrinderMJ 0]

You all are just jealous of Phil. He is in complete control and uses his stunts to SELL MORE PHIL. More sponsorships, more books, movd DVDS. Come on he is in it for the Business not for the cards. Very smart guy!!! So get off him!!

Good first post :roll:. That's why we discuss the large gap between his cash game talent and his tournament talent is because we are all jealous of him.

[AceJackOffS 0]

hellmuth believes that cash games are rigged because any player in the gamw that doesn't have 9 wsop bracelets should just give him their money and bow down to him

[Mikeh77 0]

This whole arguent is silly.....dissing Phil for being a cash game "fish" is like dissing Chip Reese for being a tournament "fish".Both great players who stick to their specialties and shouldnt be judged on the others.I mean in this same game where Phil "donked"...Daniel also got stuck for a cool quarter of a mil (3 quarters at one point) so its all relative.This thread is just as lame as starting one titled "Why is Daniel such dead money in tournaments lately?"

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Hellmuth is very good at promoting himself. He makes LOTS of money speaking at corporate events, giving private lessions to the rich, and playing in soft star game, games where they just want to play with phil. What phil ISN"T good at is playing against good players. I watch him all the time on UB, and I've never seen him do well. Not once. I've only seen him tilt and tilt and tilt.

[Hyaku-Shiki 0]

I think this is a very fair assessment of Phil's skill and behavior:http://www.barrygreenstein.com/phellmuth.htm

[poker_cutie 0]

I wonder if while he was losing anyone or all of the players beating him spelled "poker" for him so at least he could feel a bit better about himself by at least losing to guys who could spell "poker".

[GrinderMJ 0]

This whole arguent is silly.....dissing Phil for being a cash game "fish" is like dissing Chip Reese for being a tournament "fish".Both great players who stick to their specialties and shouldnt be judged on the others.I mean in this same game where Phil "donked"...Daniel also got stuck for a cool quarter of a mil (3 quarters at one point) so its all relative.This thread is just as lame as starting one titled "Why is Daniel such dead money in tournaments lately?"

I don't know that phil stays away from cash games, if you read Daniel's blog a few days ago he mentioned that Phil was playing a cash game with him and all the players were doing everything they could to keep Phil in teh game. This shoudl let you know that he is regarded as a cash game fish, and doesn't necesarily stay away from cash games.

[Mr. Blonde 0]

This whole arguent is silly.....dissing Phil for being a cash game "fish" is like dissing Chip Reese for being a tournament "fish".Both great players who stick to their specialties and shouldnt be judged on the others.I mean in this same game where Phil "donked"...Daniel also got stuck for a cool quarter of a mil (3 quarters at one point) so its all relative.This thread is just as lame as starting one titled "Why is Daniel such dead money in tournaments lately?"

Then what is Phil doing sitting down at this game? And just the other week Daniel was posting that he ran into Hellmuth in a big 400 800 cash game. I even said he (Phil) was a good tournament player, I just didn't understand why (A) he can be so good at tourneys but not cash games, and (B) why he plays in these cash games when they're a leak for him.

[jaaaaakke 0]

Hellmuth - 9 bracelets.FCP members (not including daniel) - 0.Hellmuth can afford to play in high stake games like 300-600 NL.# of FCP members (not including daniel) than can - 0.I think Hellmuth must be doing something right in the poker world.Although I do hate the way he acts on eson, its all good....its all business right?

[BradSmitty 0]

Hellmuth - 9 bracelets.FCP members (not including daniel) - 0.Hellmuth can afford to play in high stake games like 300-600 NL.# of FCP members (not including daniel) than can - 0.I think Hellmuth must be doing something right in the poker world.Although I do hate the way he acts on eson, its all good....its all business right?

Yes, there is no doubt he is a great tournament player (hence, the 9 bracelets). But, compared to the cash game players he plays against (NOT THE CASH GAME PLAYERS AT FCP...LOL) he is simply not very good. This is why, for example, the game at UB 50/100, the only place I have ever watched him play cash games, fills up IMMEDIATLY when he sits down. It isnt because people enjoy his company.

[jaaaaakke 0]

i completely disagree... i think a lot of people DO join in the 50/100 game to play against a pro.. just like full tilt where if JDAG, ivey, matusow is on, theres a bigger NL game going compared to when they're not there.we should give hellmuth some credit in cash games... he's been playing poker longer than anyone of us, he's experience in the game must be staggering. i'm going to reserve my judgements about him as a cash player and give him the benefit of the doubt :wink: or maybe he really IS a donk, and i should play him HU 30/60? hehe. as if he would waste his time...

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

i completely disagree... i think a lot of people DO join in the 50/100 game to play against a pro.. just like full tilt where if JDAG, ivey, matusow is on, theres a bigger NL game going compared to when they're not there.we should give hellmuth some credit in cash games... he's been playing poker longer than anyone of us, he's experience in the game must be staggering. i'm going to reserve my judgements about him as a cash player and give him the benefit of the doubt :wink: or maybe he really IS a donk, and i should play him HU 30/60? hehe. as if he would waste his time...

Okay, keep reserving your judgement.. meanwhile EVERY pro I've ever heard talk about the subject says he's a terrible fish AND EVERY time I've seen him on UB ( which is about 20) he's making donk plays, steaming terriblly, and losing his butt, and cursing out other players. While yes, he has more money than me, and yes he has lots of experience, do you know what he's learned from it?Not much. He still steams like a rookie player, to this day. In tourniment,s for some reason he can control his steam better, perhaps because he knows he'll bust out if he doesn't. But he isn't one of the best tourniment players in the world any more either. His "super tight" style gets exploited by the pros. What he is good at is fleecing bad players, and getting suckers to by his DVD ( which is the worst thing I've ever seen) and his book ( the worst thing I've ever read).The man just can't emotionally handle getting big cards beat. it's such an elementary thing, and he can't get over it.

[BradSmitty 0]

i completely disagree... i think a lot of people DO join in the 50/100 game to play against a pro.. just like full tilt where if JDAG, ivey, matusow is on, theres a bigger NL game going compared to when they're not there.

Well, i disagree with your disagreement. haha. I mean, come on. Sure, at the lower limits the game would fill up because a big name pro is there, but that is just not the case at 50/100NL. These guys are putting thousands of dollars on the table, most being pros, and they are doing so more often when phil is there because they have a better chance to win. Some of these guys, prahlad, mike matasow, and several online pros, are certainly not in awe of phil.

we should give hellmuth some credit in cash games... he's been playing poker longer than anyone of us, he's experience in the game must be staggering. i'm going to reserve my judgements about him as a cash player and give him the benefit of the doubt :wink: or maybe he really IS a donk, and i should play him HU 30/60? hehe. as if he would waste his time...

Again, i'm not saying I personally would have success against him, or that the high majority of people out there would. However, I do, from what I have seen and heard from people such as DN, feel that he is a fish compared to THE PEOPLE HE PLAYS AGAINST, which is all that really matters. It doesnt matter if he is a better cash game player than my grandmother or my Aunt Joan, because they dont play against phil.

[reedmcneal 0]

Conclusion: Phil is a top tournament player, but a very average cash game player, who loses money at high limits. Next topic.

[greyshark81 0]

Okay, keep reserving your judgement.. meanwhile EVERY pro I've ever heard talk about the subject says he's a terrible fish AND EVERY time I've seen him on UB ( which is about 20) he's making donk plays, steaming terriblly, and losing his butt, and cursing out other players. While yes, he has more money than me, and yes he has lots of experience, do you know what he's learned from it?Not much. He still steams like a rookie player, to this day. In tourniment,s for some reason he can control his steam better, perhaps because he knows he'll bust out if he doesn't. But he isn't one of the best tourniment players in the world any more either. His "super tight" style gets exploited by the pros. What he is good at is fleecing bad players, and getting suckers to by his DVD ( which is the worst thing I've ever seen) and his book ( the worst thing I've ever read).The man just can't emotionally handle getting big cards beat. it's such an elementary thing, and he can't get over it.

Does that mean you've bought his book and DVD? :wink:

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Conclusion: Phil was a top tournament player, but a very average cash game player, who loses money at high limits. Next topic.

FYP

[jaaaaakke 0]

good point i agree.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Okay, keep reserving your judgement.. meanwhile EVERY pro I've ever heard talk about the subject says he's a terrible fish AND EVERY time I've seen him on UB ( which is about 20) he's making donk plays, steaming terriblly, and losing his butt, and cursing out other players. While yes, he has more money than me, and yes he has lots of experience, do you know what he's learned from it?Not much. He still steams like a rookie player, to this day. In tourniment,s for some reason he can control his steam better, perhaps because he knows he'll bust out if he doesn't. But he isn't one of the best tourniment players in the world any more either. His "super tight" style gets exploited by the pros. What he is good at is fleecing bad players, and getting suckers to by his DVD ( which is the worst thing I've ever seen) and his book ( the worst thing I've ever read).The man just can't emotionally handle getting big cards beat. it's such an elementary thing, and he can't get over it.

Does that mean you've bought his book and DVD? :wink:

hahahaha hell no, I checked them both out from the library. I wouldn't spend a dime on a Phil Hellmuth product. I checked them out for laughs ( and they are good for THAT. Most of the Fillmath stuff comes straight from his DVD's. THe one I saw was HILARIOUS