studioxxvi 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hello all, If any of you read Pokerpages, more specifically, the player profiles, you'll already be well aware of one of the questions -"What would you like to change about the world?"Well, I could take the saintly route and say, "world peace," but after a massive argument with my girlfriend, I now know what my absolute biggest pet-peeve is about the world outside of poker. Yes, you've all heard it before, but ignorant people who think poker is gambling!!! It drives me absolutely crazy. My girlfriend happens to be one of those irrefutably ignorant individuals who thinks I'm gambling every time I sit down at a poker table. Of course my knee-jerk reaction is, "Why do you think there are professional poker players who make a living from playing? Why do you think players like Daniel Negreanu win repeatedly? (And she's actually watched him play on TV on more than one occasion with me). DO YOU THINK THEY'RE JUST LUCKIER THAN EVERYONE ELSE?!" But no, she won't budge. I'm a winning player and after only playing a little over 12 months am beginning to build my bankroll more rapidly. Sure, I might lose 2 days out of the week, but I'll win the other 5. WEEK-IN-WEEK-OUT!! But she still doesn't see the light. I'm asking for help - can anyone give me some ammunition that is so concrete, so undeniable that she will HAVE to respect poker and the players more, and not just say it's pure gambling??Look forward to hearing from you. Studio Link to post Share on other sites
JaysonWeber 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Have her watch rounders with you... Ask her how many professional craps, 21, roulette, slots players there are... and ask her why the state of California considers poker a game of skill and not a game of luck Tell her its about math etc etc etc...give her the two-bit about why there are consistent winners... she might catch on, some never do. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 just ask her to find you one example of anyone who has made their living for more than a decade off of blackjack, roulette, craps, or any other casino nonsense. Heres a hint: she wont find any. the reason is it cant be done. its mathematically impossible. Then provide her with a long list of people who's sole source of income is poker. Ask her to explain this phenomenon by some logical reason other than that these people are exceptionally skilled at playing poker. heres another way: ask her to flip coins with you for 25c a flip. heads she wins, tails you win. after a few minutes she'll realize no one is gonna win cuz its 50/50. Now, tell her you will pay her 50c every time she wins, and she only has to pay you 25c if you win. after she cleans out your roll of quarters, ask her why she won. Then tell her the answer before she can respond: the answer is that the math was immutably in her favour. given enough time SHE COULD NOT LOSE. So it is with poker. The skill is in finding the coin tosses that pay 2:1 (this is an oversimplification but you get the picture.) If she could go around and find people to play this cointoss game with her for the rest of her life, she would never need to work. Poker players go around and find other players who are willing to put in money time after time when the math is against them. Link to post Share on other sites
AceyDeucy 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Who do you play blackjack against? Who do you play craps against?Answer: the house. And in both games the house has a mathematical edge. Over time, the house always wins. Gamblers hope to catch a run of improbably (if not terribly unlikely) luck and beat the odds.Who do you play poker against? Other players. As long as you are better than the other players, YOU have the edge, and over time you will win.That is the fundamental difference between poker and gambling. In poker, the house is not a player. Every one has the same CHANCE of winning, but it is skill that directs the flow of money. Link to post Share on other sites
dna4ever 2 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Have her watch rounders with you... Save time and just let her listen to this 11 second clip ...http://www.roundersmovie.com/sounds/skill_game.wav Link to post Share on other sites
LIPOKERPACK 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Poker IS gambling. Poker IS Gambling. If there is luck involved, it is gambling.Dont kid yourself dude.It is a lesser version of gambling because a great deal of skill goes into it, but any jackass can hit runner runner against you and wipe you out.My girlfriend is the same way, but I just tell her to shut the hell up, JK. She actually plays sometimes if there is a homegamne with friends, i will bankroll her, she sees the difference between poker and roulette, or craps, but it is still gambling.If you say poker is a game of skill ,that determines that it isnt gambling, then what about blackjack. BJ uses a great deal of skill to gain only a 2-3% odd in you r favor, and you still could lose sustantial amounts of $$ in 1 session. Link to post Share on other sites
Spidurman 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Poker is just like the stock market - especially a floor traderYou compete with imperfect information vs other people with the house taking a cut (commissions/rake).There is a tremendous amount of short term luck and varience, but over a long period, skill wins out.Is poker gambling, yes. It is gambling with an edge - yes. Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Poker IS gambling. Poker IS Gambling. If there is luck involved, it is gambling.Dont kid yourself dude.It is a lesser version of gambling because a great deal of skill goes into it, but any jackass can hit runner runner against you and wipe you out.My girlfriend is the same way, but I just tell her to shut the hell up, JK. She actually plays sometimes if there is a homegamne with friends, i will bankroll her, she sees the difference between poker and roulette, or craps, but it is still gambling.If you say poker is a game of skill ,that determines that it isnt gambling, then what about blackjack. BJ uses a great deal of skill to gain only a 2-3% odd in you r favor, and you still could lose sustantial amounts of $$ in 1 session.if you want to look at it this way, everything is gambling. When you drive your car, you are betting that you wont get into a crash. Of course, driving skill can make this a better bet for some than for others. When you walk in to work, you are betting you wont get laid off. Of course, past performance can make this a better bet for some than others. Is football a skill game? Did you see Brien ring that FG off the crossbar and in against SD? was that not lucky? a slightly stronger wind would have pushed it wide. There is a luck element to everything. How much skill can influence that luck factor determines whether its a gamble. In poker, skill can neutralize the luck factor in the long run. It is not a gamble. it is mathematical certainty. In blackjack, a prefect strategy will still leave the odds in the houses favour. This is gambling. Gambling is playing a game where the mathematical odds are immutably against you. When you go to church/synagogue/mosque, you are betting that your god is THE god, and that you will be admitted in to heaven when you die. In my mind, Religion is in fact the ultimate gamble. Think of how many religions are out there. What are the chances your god is THE god. Link to post Share on other sites
Pupsta 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Poker IS gambling. Poker IS Gambling. If there is luck involved, it is gambling.Dont kid yourself dude.It is a lesser version of gambling because a great deal of skill goes into it, but any jackass can hit runner runner against you and wipe you out.My girlfriend is the same way, but I just tell her to shut the hell up, JK. She actually plays sometimes if there is a homegamne with friends, i will bankroll her, she sees the difference between poker and roulette, or craps, but it is still gambling.If you say poker is a game of skill ,that determines that it isnt gambling, then what about blackjack. BJ uses a great deal of skill to gain only a 2-3% odd in you r favor, and you still could lose sustantial amounts of $$ in 1 session.if you want to look at it this way, everything is gambling. When you drive your car, you are betting that you wont get into a crash. Of course, driving skill can make this a better bet for some than for others. When you walk in to work, you are betting you wont get laid off. Of course, past performance can make this a better bet for some than others. Is football a skill game? Did you see Brien ring that FG off the crossbar and in against SD? was that not lucky? a slightly stronger wind would have pushed it wide. There is a luck element to everything. How much skill can influence that luck factor determines whether its a gamble. In poker, skill can neutralize the luck factor in the long run. It is not a gamble. it is mathematical certainty. In blackjack, a prefect strategy will still leave the odds in the houses favour. This is gambling. Gambling is playing a game where the mathematical odds are immutably against you. When you go to church/synagogue/mosque, you are betting that your god is THE god, and that you will be admitted in to heaven when you die. In my mind, Religion is in fact the ultimate gamble. Think of how many religions are out there. What are the chances your god is THE god.Brilliant post through and through. Link to post Share on other sites
chuckf410 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 But no, she won't budge. I'm a winning player and after only playing a little over 12 months am beginning to build my bankroll more rapidly. Sure, I might lose 2 days out of the week, but I'll win the other 5. WEEK-IN-WEEK-OUT!! But she still doesn't see the light. I'm asking for help - can anyone give me some ammunition that is so concrete, so undeniable that she will HAVE to respect poker and the players more, and not just say it's pure gambling??There is not alot you can do. Give her the stats and all the proof that you can find. If she still chooses to belive it is gambling, and you can't accept her seeing it that way, you have a choice to make. Her or poker.Personally, I belive that poker is gambling. But like others have said here, you can minimize your exposure with skill at reading your opponents and playing solid hands. I've been lucky with the girls that I've dated understanding that gambling is my hobby to me and the money that I lose is MY money. (Somehow the winnings become 'ours' but that's another thread) *After reading the quoted message again, is it possible that you're playing poker 7 days a week is taking time away from her and she's more jealous over that than the actual 'gambling'.* Link to post Share on other sites
shamhawks 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 maybe, it's not soo much, as she thinks it's gambling, as to the fact you said you play 7 days a week....and she is wondering about getting her time in I also immediately tought about, just having her watch rounders, but he loses his bankroll in the first 10 min of the movie...she would probably be close minded after that. Link to post Share on other sites
TS Clark 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 As several people above have mentioned, poker IS gambling. There is no two ways about it. The people who are using Rounders as some sort of I Ching about poker might be forgetting that the first few minutes of the movie are Mike getting cleaned out of his whole bankroll. I am not denying it's not a skill game -- it most certainly is. But it's nuts to say that it's not gambling.Also, on the topic of mathematical certainty... The posters are correct that, in the end, skill will win out over luck in poker. However, you have to make sure you have the means to continue to invest into your skill until that mathematical certainty wins out. A good player WILL win out eventually, but he could go broke many times before this happens. This is not a situation that usually provides comfort or stability to a mother, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, etc..Finally, it's 100% fact that gambling can be an addiction. They don't have 12 step programs for gamblers for no reason. To equate this to another, more socially prominent addiction -- I had two friends in high school who used drugs. Both of them bright, talented guys. One of them could take or leave the drugs. He used them recreationally and they had no measureable effect on his ability to function and be productive. The other guy had his life ruined by his usage. So, clearly, a person's loved ones aren't being unreasonable to be paranoid and concerned that you are engaging in a potentially addictive, destructive behavior that they know has ruined some people's lives.There is a line in 'When Harry Met Sally," where one character responds to another character's assertion that he has good taste by saying: "Of course you think you have good taste. Everyone thinks they have good taste and a great sense of humor. But they couldn't all possibly have." Same thing with poker players -- they all think they're the predator, not the prey.The original poster sounds like a decent, winning player. And some of the other posters are absolutely correct when they assert that poker is no more of a gamble than opening a restaurant or playing the stock market. And these are both vaid comparisons to use when talking about what you do. My point in this (long) post is just to say that it (gambling) isn't an unreasonable thing for people to be concerned about. In the end, of course, the only thing anyone can do is just to tell the person who is fighting with you on your playing poker that you are a grown person and fully capable of making your own decisions about the direction of your life. She/He/They can either accept this, or you have to make a decision about what to cut loose -- the game or the people. Link to post Share on other sites
LIPOKERPACK 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 very eloquently said Clark, Kudos. ! Link to post Share on other sites
JistTheFist 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Really easy fix for this situation.... 1 ) win a few thousand dollars and buy her a really big and expensive ring then say "we wouldn't be able to have all these wonderful things without poker"if that doesn't work just slap her and say "I do what I want with my money... whether it's gambling or wiping my butt and you can't tell me what to do!"just kidding... don't hit women. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 just ask her to find you one example of anyone who has made their living for more than a decade off of blackjackWell...that's probably not the best example. She might have seen "Rainman" after all... Link to post Share on other sites
justblaze 0 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 just ask her to find you one example of anyone who has made their living for more than a decade off of blackjackWell...that's probably not the best example. She might have seen "Rainman" after all...heh. yea. yea. im dancing. yea. wanna go home. yea. Link to post Share on other sites
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