my dealing mistake (long post)

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I realize this should go in General, but the only opinions I value all post here.For those of you that know a little about me, or would care to, I've just moved back in to my new apartment in Athens, GA, to re-attend UGA as a chemistry major. I'm returning from a 1-year "sabbatical" that had something to do with a little too much football and slightly more than social drinking.The best card game in town is one I helped set up over a year ago. The same guys still run it and I was one of their first dealers. I'm probably going to start a semi-regular dealing schedule there too, and I'll post as things come up.Here's what happened. The game is $1/$3 NL hold'em, with a rake. The environment is pretty laid back... but when there's a dispute we fall back to the rule book. The game is mostly older (middle aged) people, with a couple of students. It leans on the tight/passive side, though some people have shown flashes of greatness.I was dealing when this dispute came up and it's really been messing with my head.Player A is SB with approximately $36 left. He's one of two students (20ish year old guys) at the table, and he's definitely one of the strongest players there. This guy is a regular, he deals occassionally, and is a nice guy.Player B is in the cutoff with $91 left. This is his first night here and he's played really quietly. He's on the tight-passive side.Player C is Button with over $150. He's an older guy and has been a steady regular since the game started a year ago. He's a fantastically nice guy, very tight/weak player, very easy to read, and everybody thinks he's great (for one reason or a combination of reasons).Two early position limpers, then players B and C limp as Player A completes. BB checks and we're 6-handed for an $18 pot and the flop comes T-9-2 rainbow.All check to player B, the cutoff new guy, who bets $10. Player C calls. Player A in the small blind says "all in" and then puts out $10 for the call, and in a separate motion reaches back for the rest of his chips (though he said "all in" first). I didn't hear the verbal declaration, and so I burn one card and prepare the turn. The table stops me before I got the turn out. All fold to the CO, who calls, as does the button.Pot is $115ish, and A is all-in while B and C have a side pot.Then I burn and put out the turn, an 8. Player B bets 20 of his $45 stack, and C raises him all in. B calls. There is a $90 side pot and approximately a $115 main pot, and all remaining players are all in.I burn for the river, and realize there are now 4 burn cards. I stop immediately, re-think things, and realize that I double-burned before the turn. The 8 was not supposed to be the turn, but B and C acted on it.We call the floor over, and we basically flip everyone's cards up. Player C, weak/tight nice regular, of course has the nuts, QJ. Player B, the new guy, has ATo for TPTK. Player A, the young guy regular dealer, has 78, and is drawing dead now, but was live on the flop with odds.One of the other players turns over what should have been the turn. It's a 6, and player A would have HIT his draw, and NOT player C had the hand been dealt correctly. The mistake was made AFTER player A was already all in. After the mistake happened, we didn't catch it until the AFTER the turn action, and ATo would have been ahead of QJ if he didn't nut on the turn.The floor looks it up in the book, and the book says that if there is a card out there that isn't supposed to be out there, if TWO players have acted on it, then that is the card. You can burn cards, muck hands, and other things, but you can't un-do action. If an Uno card comes up on the turn and it goes bet/call, then that's what the turn is period.The new guy is ballistic because the winner of the pot, player C, wouldn't have won the pot if there were no mistakes AND player B would still have $45 dollars left.A couple things worked in my favor here. Players A (a dealer himself) and C, the regulars, both immediately took my side and supported the floor, who deferred to the book. Furthermore, I didn't alter the odds of the deck. That was still a random turn card and it was acted on accordingly. Finally, at no point, mistake or otherwise, was the ATo holding up because either one or the other draws would have hit for the main pot. The table generally agreed that it was a collosal mind-fuck of a situation, but the consensus was that what was done was the best possible solution to the situation once it could have been corrected. The new guy stormed out and said he's never coming back.Questions: barring my mistake which was of course unforeseeable and unpreventable, did I do everything as perfectly correct as I could have?Should I have offered the new guy $45 dollars (his loss of the side pot) out of my tips for the evening?What do you think?

[GrinderMJ 0]

I'm sure you don't value my opinion but, I don't think you did anything wrong here. You made a common mistake that's gonna happen occasionally in live action play. It was extremely unfortunate for the player who stormed out, but you owe him nothing. You were doing your job and made a mistake, but like you said, the turn was a random card. It was a crappy situation but you did nothing wrong and shouldn't worry about it.

[shpaget 0]

I generally fall back to this question:would Mr. Upset have given his money back if it was the 8 that was double-burned, and the 6 that came up as a benefit?It was a mistake - I can't say I'd be happy with you if your mistake cost me a chunk of money, but, like bad beats, all luck evens out, and dealer mistakes will work in my favour as well.This is just one of those situations where the mistake is amplified and visible. Like a referee missing a call in the final minute of a football game...no one mentions the missed call in the first quarter that was just as important.A flashed card can be just as costly/beneficial, but, because of the nature of how most hands proceed, the impact of a flash card is rarely noticed or evident, though it can still be major.Another example is when a dealer accidentally grabs 4 cards to flop...you put them back, reshuffle, and reflop...it happens...your mistake was just more visible.You did everything right...you caught your mistake, you admitted your mistake, and you remedied it to the limit of the rules.

[Stylin_Fish 0]

It worked against him=he's mad, other guy is happyIt worked for him=he's happy, other guy is madCan't make everyone happen, it's the law.

[akishore 0]

TJ, hold on!!i'm going to find an article by rolf slotboom from cardplayer that talks about an almost IDENTICAL situation.aseem

[akishore 0]

http://live.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/...4857&m_id=65567aseem

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I'm sure you don't value my opinion but, I don't think you did anything wrong here. You made a common mistake that's gonna happen occasionally in live action play. It was extremely unfortunate for the player who stormed out, but you owe him nothing. You were doing your job and made a mistake, but like you said, the turn was a random card. It was a crappy situation but you did nothing wrong and shouldn't worry about it.

By that I meant I value the opinions of strategy posters, not just veterans. If you're posting thoughtfully in strategy, newbie or not, I value your opinion. Much moreso than as compared to general poker, anyway.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

http://live.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/...&m_id=65567aseem

Enjoyable read. I really like Slotbloom also.After the game broke up I talked to the floor guy and asked again if maybe it would have been a nice gesture if I offered Mr. Upset $45 out of my $115 in tips for the evening. He said that was a really bad idea, and that he defended me emphatically for a reason.When disputes come up, he said, we always have to fall back on the rules every single time, with no chopping pots privately or money-back expectancies at all. If that kind of precendence is established, and something like that happened in a 700 dollar pot, nobody should even think about asking for $350 back.I felt a lot better after he told me that... and realized that it was handled as correctly as it could have.Thanks for your input.

[RayPowers 0]

I think you handled your mistake fine. Obviously you shouldn't have made the mistake, but it happens, and you handled it as well as could be..except.....My only issue with this is why in the world anyone let a player flip over the the card? No good can come from that card being flipped, and in fact, no good DID come from that card being flipped. There is nothing that says a player has the right to see what could have been in this situation, all it does it create ill feelings (which it did).That's all I would say to do differently. Do not let them flip the card if this happens again. A random card came out, and that's really all the players need to know.Ray

[DCWildcat 0]

You were fine.The most important thing was that you didn't affect the odds in any way. So it didn't really matter.

[shpaget 0]

My only issue with this is why in the world anyone let a player flip over the the card? No good can come from that card being flipped, and in fact, no good DID come from that card being flipped. There is nothing that says a player has the right to see what could have been in this situation, all it does it create ill feelings (which it did).That's all I would say to do differently. Do not let them flip the card if this happens again. A random card came out, and that's really all the players need to know.Ray

Very true - the players shouldn't be touching any cards but the two dealt to them. Cardinal rule.

barring my mistake which was of course unforeseeable and unpreventable,

Mistakes do happen, but never think they are unforeseeable or unpreventable...they are mistakes because they ARE foreseeable and preventable.You made two mistakes:1. burned two cards2. missed the guy's "all in" which led to the two burn cards - these were preventable in a few ways:a. verbally repeating the last player's action (not always feasible)b. putting the burn card back on top of the deck (the burn card's job is to protect the next playable card...it can't do that while sitting in the muck during the action)c. declaring, verbally, to the table that you have already burnedand, finally, d, the most important:The players at the table were aware enough to correct you on the "all in" call...they should have been aware enough to notice you were going to double-burn as well, including player b.Everybody at the table participated in that mistake, and player b is no less to blame than you are.In fact, what if player C knew you double-burned...he waits to see if the turn helps him...if it doesn't, he tells you, you put the turn and the second burn back in the deck, shuffle, and draw a new turn....if it helps, he acts and hopes no one else notices...it's win/win for him. This may not be the case, but the fact is because of possibilities like this you can't be held fully responsible, and shouldn't feel obligated to pay anybody back.They are foreseeable, proven by the fact that your rulebook addressed your specific mistake, which not only tells me that the mistake is foreseeable, but that it is also (somewhat) expected.

[Egarim 0]

I think you made the right decision. Once i read that u double burned (and didn't read what the other players had), I immediately thought someone made their straight and another person isn't going to be happy. Well, any ruling should not favor any player and should not take into account the player's hole cards. First, the "real" turn card should never have been turned over. Second, you shouldn't let the player's turn over their holecards before a ruling is made since the players will want the ruling in their favor to help their hand. By not turning them over Player B wouldn't be as pissed since he wouldn't know that the other guy had the nut str8. Third, he acted on the turn card and willingly put his money in after seeing it. The rule seems like common sense to me and without even knowing the rule (from the rule book) I would've done the exact same thing. BTW, you don't owe Player B $45. He willingly put the money in on the turn, it's his fault. I wouldn't sweat it. You made the right decision. You can't always make everyone happy.Also, here's a link to a somewhat similar situation. This is absolutely sick. If you think what u dealt with was bad... just read this...WARNING: INVOLVES A BAD BEAT. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archive...es/angelo08.htm

[bdams19 0]

No one's perfect. You made the mistake, but you also handled it the correct way. As you said, you didn't alter the odds of any of the remaining cards in the deck coming out. And I definately agree with your floor person. The rules are the rules, and if you want to run a respectable establishment you have to follow that procedure. Although it would have been a very generous gesture, you should not give the guy the money out of your tips of what would have been the sidepot. The guy is going to be mad knowing that he would have won the pot, but that's human nature. You did everything correct given the situation.

[Governator 54]

My only issue with this is why in the world anyone let a player flip over the the card? No good can come from that card being flipped, and in fact, no good DID come from that card being flipped. There is nothing that says a player has the right to see what could have been in this situation, all it does it create ill feelings (which it did).Ray

I agree, unfortunatly that added the fuel to fire.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

My only issue with this is why in the world anyone let a player flip over the the card? No good can come from that card being flipped, and in fact, no good DID come from that card being flipped. There is nothing that says a player has the right to see what could have been in this situation, all it does it create ill feelings (which it did).Ray

I agree, unfortunatly that added the fuel to fire.

I definitely didn't want that card flipped up because it could do absolutely nothing but inflame things further.The guy in Seat 1 (neither A, B, or C actually) just grabbed it once my table control went to fubar, and that's when things got more animated.Once I found the mistake I stopped everything and tried to re-evaluate so that I could make sure I took the right course of action. I wasn't going to flip up any more cards (off the deck, out of the muck, or anywhere else) until I knew exactly what the right thing to do was.

[macphec 0]

Also, here's a link to a somewhat similar situation. This is absolutely sick. If you think what u dealt with was bad... just read this...WARNING: INVOLVES A BAD BEAT. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archive...es/angelo08.htm

I think pokerpages stole this storey from Cloutier's book

[Egarim 0]

How do u know cloutier's book didn't steal it from poker pages???Either way, it's an article by the writer who can allow anyone they want to publish it.

[shirtless 0]

I deal, although not poker, yet, and there is an easy solution to all of this: Don't stop the hand and admit your mistake.If I'm dealing doubledeck blackjack and forget to burn a card before I start pitching I'm not supposed to say shit. unless a player notices and says something about it I keep going. The cards are still random, you didn't purposefully **** anyone over, just keep going. On the highly unlikely chance anyone notices, THEN you call floor and sort it out.