wow the dumbest move i've ever seen

[NicksDad1970 0]

Damn, I thought this thread was a movie review not a move review.

[Spademan 94]

Talking about tournament strategy, I don't see how re-raising all in is a positive step towards battling for 1st place. He raised your BB a couple hundred chips, big deal. You're either badly beaten or he still holds two overcards to your lowly three's. I would call the raise and put in a pot sized bet to a baby flop, or fold to an overcard flop. Raising all-in PF is a move that most amateurs make, since they know they lack the post-flop skills necessary to become an elite poker player. They would rather push than wait for a larger edge.Honestly, what is the +EV by moving all in? You either have a coinflip and your tournament is on the line, or you win 700 chips or so by spitting in the face of his bluff. Not to mention the lowly stack is still there. Big risk for very little gain. stupid.

If I don't have a read, I may reraise to see where I stand.If I have a read, and I think he's on overcards, I push. I take the pot if he folds, and I have a slight edge to *double up and take the chip lead by near 2x in chips*. This is if I have supreme confidence in my read, mind you. Not just, "well, I think he may be on overcards... ah, what the hell, let's risk it".If I suspect he's on overpair, I fold.The difference between 2nd and 3rd is decent, but the difference between 1st and 3rd is what I'm most concerned about, and I'm willing to push any edge to get there.Too aggressive?Maybe some think so, but I know I'm the type of player I like to face least, in terms of willingness to put his chips at risk with the slightest edge.Finally, to say that AK calling off half his chips beat is better than putting a slightly worse hand to the test, is silly.Depending on their understanding of the other player, neither move was bad.

[moneymanbc 0]

Why are you guys making such a big deal about this? The guy only had 365 chips and the big blind was 200, which he is going to be the BB the next hand. Meaning he only has three more hands (maybe less if the blinds increase meantime) before he is blinded out! He figures this is probably the best shot he has and may not see another pocket pair or even high cards. The pot has become a pretty nice size relative to his stack size and figured if he wins or gets a fold, can stay around a few more rounds looking for a good opportunity to get back in the game.I don't see this as that bad of a play myself.

[GoCryWolfe 0]

It still baffles me.. the number of people who think AK, suited or non, is a re-raising hand. Granted, in this case, AK raised, then the 3rd guy reraised 3K more, and AK called that, it's still the same situation. Chances are, and mostly likely are definite, that his is the type of hand the guy wanted to be called with. AK is at a slight disadvantage preflop against pocket 3's. You raised the standard, 3x the BB, preflop, and he went all-in. I believe he was content if he was called or not. He is ahead if called, or steals your chips if you fold. Regardless, your move was not a smart one, as you could have been up against a monster.Which brings the moral... AK is NOT a re-raising hand. Sure, flame me if you wish, but although it worked out in this case, you (AK) are still an underdog.

[Spademan 94]

Why are you guys making such a big deal about this? The guy only had 365 chips and the big blind was 200, which he is going to be the BB the next hand. Meaning he only has three more hands (maybe less if the blinds increase meantime) before he is blinded out! He figures this is probably the best shot he has and may not see another pocket pair or even high cards. The pot has become a pretty nice size relative to his stack size and figured if he wins or gets a fold, can stay around a few more rounds looking for a good opportunity to get back in the game.I don't see this as that bad of a play myself.

It wouldn't be an issue if it was the low stack.The controversy is that it was the medium stack that moved with 33.

[mangwansi 0]

Sure, flame me if you wish, but although it worked out in this case, you (AK) are still an underdog.

You're assuming AK is facing a pair. The chances are much more likely he's holding a non-pair, probably a strong king or a lower ace. When I'm the chip leader by 2-1 and some guy pushes all in from the BB after I've raised, I'm NEVER folding AK. Never. There's at LEAST a 30% that the BB suspects I'm stealing so he might have raised all-in with anything from A2o or QJ. Secondly, the chances of getting a premium pair threehanded is very small. In fact, AK IS the premium hand in that particular orbit; how are you not calling an all-in? Especially counting for the fact that a player who is in second in chips, looking to vault to first, would probably never raise all-in 3500 more with a premium overpair; 85% of the time he'll choose to smooth call and try trap him. His all-in screams of non-premium hand.Spademan mentioned he'd try to get a read on the guy. His all-in raise looks like a 30% bluff and a 70% semibluff with a strong, but not premium hand. I would guess he's either holding a small pair or a smaller ace. Anything from queens to aces, it's a smooth call or a reraise, but almost never an all-in raise. With a big stack, you need to punish the smaller ones. The BB probably thought the chip leader was trying to push him around, so he moved all-in. He fell right into the chip leader's trap. I don't think pushing with threes is the worst move in the world, but raising and calling an all-in with AK threehanded while you're chipleader should never be faulted.

[Loismustdie 0]

not the dumbest move I've ever seen. what is the dumbest move I've ever seen?Lemme tell ya. ALWAYS make sure to ask if the hooker is actually a girl. you do not want that suprisesw

Unless thats what you are looking for.

[moneymanbc 0]

Why are you guys making such a big deal about this? The guy only had 365 chips and the big blind was 200, which he is going to be the BB the next hand. Meaning he only has three more hands (maybe less if the blinds increase meantime) before he is blinded out! He figures this is probably the best shot he has and may not see another pocket pair or even high cards. The pot has become a pretty nice size relative to his stack size and figured if he wins or gets a fold, can stay around a few more rounds looking for a good opportunity to get back in the game.I don't see this as that bad of a play myself.

It wouldn't be an issue if it was the low stack.The controversy is that it was the medium stack that moved with 33.

Ok, that makes more sense now. Just didn't look close enough at the hand history.

[Spademan 94]

With a big stack, you need to punish the smaller ones. The BB probably thought the chip leader was trying to push him around, so he moved all-in. He fell right into the chip leader's trap. I don't think pushing with threes is the worst move in the world, but raising and calling an all-in with AK threehanded while you're chipleader should never be faulted.

I'm in total aggreement with calling the all-in with AK here.

[faisal 0]

spademan= retarded

[Karmahoos 0]

I dont see how pushing in with threes here is playing for first. You stand to lose little(comparatively) from simply folding this hand, and if you are truly confident in your ability you can find a better spot than this. I think playing aggressively is being confused with playing for first.

[blahdot3h 0]

Why are you guys making such a big deal about this?  The guy only had 365 chips and the big blind was 200, which he is going to be the BB the next hand.  Meaning he only has three more hands (maybe less if the blinds increase meantime) before he is blinded out!  He figures this is probably the best shot he has and may not see another pocket pair or even high cards.  The pot has become a pretty nice size relative to his stack size and figured if he wins or gets a fold, can stay around a few more rounds looking for a good opportunity to get back in the game.I don't see this as that bad of a play myself.

I think you saw things wrong...the guy with 4k chips went all in not the guy with 365 chips...

[Spademan 94]

I dont see how pushing in with threes here is playing for first.   You stand to lose little(comparatively) from simply folding this hand, and if you are truly confident in your ability you can find a better spot than this.  I think playing aggressively is being confused with playing for first.

Let's see, he got called by a hand he beats more often than not.Meaning he was more likely than not to become the chip leader x2 of second stack.And you don't see how it's playing for first?Jeez, it's not that tough.If he puts his opponent on overcards, he either get's him to fold or is favorite to double up.

[Spademan 94]

spademan= retarded

faisal= gaytarded

[Pudge714 0]

I dont see how pushing in with threes here is playing for first.   You stand to lose little(comparatively) from simply folding this hand, and if you are truly confident in your ability you can find a better spot than this.  I think playing aggressively is being confused with playing for first.

Let's see, he got called by a hand he beats more often than not.Meaning he was more likely than not to become the chip leader x2 of second stack.And you don't see how it's playing for first?Jeez, it's not that tough.If he puts his opponent on overcards, he either get's him to fold or is favorite to double up.

Here are the three potential things that happens to threes if he pushes, assuming we don't know what Keith Crime has. Keith folds, threes wins a small pot, Keith calls with overcards they are racing, Keith calls with a pocket pair and threes is screwed. With his push he will most of the time by winning a small pot, or losing a big one, simply he should have waited for a better spot. There is a difference between playing for first, and playing recklessly. Simply this push is -EV.

[Spademan 94]

Here are the three potential things that happens to threes if he pushes, assuming we don't know what Keith Crime has. Keith folds, threes wins a small pot, Keith calls with overcards they are racing, Keith calls with a pocket pair and threes is screwed. With his push he will most of the time by winning a small pot, or losing a big one, simply he should have waited for a better spot. There is a difference between playing for first, and playing recklessly. Simply this push is -EV.

Maybe I'm the only person here who actually tries to put my opponent on a hand, and, when I do so with a measure of certainty, has the courage to trust that information.If I have no idea what my opponent has here, obviously a push it bad.I trust my reads, and, if this guy put keith on overcards, the push is fine.And, for my style, it's better than fine.I don't know the guy that pushed, so I don't know what his reasoning was, maybe he's just a reckless "push any pair at any time" type. If so, it's a dumb push.But, if he put keith on AK-AJ, KQ, ect... it's the exact move I'd make.When he flipped AK I would nod my head and say, "thought so", and watch to see if my edge comes thru, putting me in 2x chip lead, or watch and see him spike a card he needs, leave the table and start a new one.A third quaility of this move, if the move is made for the correct reason, is my opponent realizes I can't be pushed around, and will put the test to him.If he folds, I have the aggression initiative in my favor.Anyway, not pushing the 3's is fine also. There are different styles, I wouldn't fault someone for 'waiting for something better' here, there is time to do so.I get my chips in if I feel I have the best of it late in a tourn, and it works for me.

[Karmahoos 0]

For the sake of argument lets apply some math here. Lets say that here, 4 boy folds and lets the ss get blinded off in the next two hands and then plays for first. Given Keith Crimes over 2-1 lead I would say 30% of the time 4-boy will win 1st, and 70% of the time he will win 2nd. A fair estimation of the first place prize money based on sng payout structures would probably be 225$. So 30% of the time he wins 225 ( for a value of 67.5 ) and 70% of the time he winds 135 ( for a value of 94.5) making the total moves ev a whopping 162$. If however he pushes, and is one hundred percent confident that his opponent holds overcards... 47% of the time he gets 3rd for a payout of 95$( for a value of 44.65) 53% of the time he doubles up, the ss gets blinded out and he now holds the 2-1 chiplead. So in that 53% of the times, 70% of the time he will win first for 225( for a value of 83.475 ) and 30% of the he gets second for 135( for a value of 21.465). This makes the push with the 4s total ev estimation to be about 149.59. So every time you make this push 100% confident your opponent holds overcards, you lose over 10 dollars. Correct me if you feel differently.Edit: This discounts the possible gains from fold equity, though I feel you would have to be reasonably confident in a fold for that 1000 chips to make up 10 dollars in tournament equity, which to me looks to be pretty unlikely.

[Spademan 94]

For the sake of argument lets apply some math here.  Lets say that here, 4 boy folds and lets the ss get blinded off in the next two hands and then plays for first.  Given Keith Crimes over 2-1 lead I would say 30% of the time 4-boy will win 1st, and 70% of the time he will win 2nd.  A fair estimation of the first place prize money based on sng payout structures would probably be 225$.  So 30% of the time he wins 225 ( for a value of 67.5 ) and 70% of the time he winds 135 ( for a value of 94.5) making the total moves ev a whopping 162$.  If however he pushes, and is one hundred percent confident that his opponent holds overcards...  47% of the time he gets 3rd for a payout of 95$( for a value of 44.65) 53% of the time he doubles up, the ss gets blinded out and he now holds the 2-1 chiplead.  So in that 53% of the times, 70% of the time he will win first for 225( for a value of 83.475 ) and 30% of the he gets second for 135( for a value of 21.465).  This makes the push with the 4s total ev estimation to be about 149.59.  So every time you make this push 100% confident your opponent holds overcards, you lose over 10 dollars.   Correct me if you feel differently.

If everyone were equal players, played the same every game, every time, I would agree.But aggression skews the numbers. Weak/tight skews the numbers. One person having a dead on read on another skews the numbers.If I have no read, or a tenative read on the other players I agree with your assessment 100%.If I feel I can put the other guy on cards with a certainty I trust, it changes the numbers all around.

[keith crime 8]

Just to take this down to the real world for fun. I think Spade makes some interesting points but I'm guessing the guy with the threes said to himself "wow pocket pair" didn't even know the other guy was short stacked and went all in. On the other hand is there anything better than having 365 chips and seeing the other two morons go all in?

[bgdon420 0]

I dont see how it was the dumbest move ever, like everyone was saying you were playing from behind. He could have made that same move with Jacks, 9s or even 10s and it's still a coin toss. Depending on the player and position most would not move in with only 3s but its a strong play at a chip leader. Ive seen alot dumber things than that, it was actually a normal play preflop.

[Spademan 94]

Just to take this down to the real world for fun. I think Spade makes some interesting points but I'm guessing the guy with the threes said to himself "wow pocket pair" didn't even know the other guy was short stacked and went all in. On the other hand is there anything better than having 365 chips and seeing the other two morons go all in?

Heh, ya, short stack was lovin' it.You're totally right, he could have just been the "WOW, POCKET PAIR! ALL-IN" type. Good chance of it actually, in my expeirence.And if that's the case, he's a donk and the move is terrible.

[MDXS 0]

I dont see how it was the dumbest move ever, like everyone was saying you were playing from behind. He could have made that same move with Jacks, 9s or even 10s and it's still a coin toss. Depending on the player and position most would not move in with only 3s but its a strong play at a chip leader. Ive seen alot dumber things than that, it was actually a normal play preflop.

If you know for a fact that he has AK. Placing an opponent on overcards with threes is a lot different than doing the same with jacks. The move with jacks is better because in the best case scenario you're dominating a lower pair. There's also a chance that your opponent may gamble and make the call with AT or even Ax, leaving you in a strong position. With threes, unless you're getting called by dueces, the best you can reasonably hope for is the coin flip against overcards. So I can't equate pushing with threes to pushing with jacks here. As for being a strong play at the chipleader, I think it would be better to pull that once the micro stack busts out.

[Spademan 94]

If you know for a fact that he has AK. Placing an opponent on overcards with threes is a lot different than doing the same with jacks. The move with jacks is better because in the best case scenario you're dominating a lower pair. There's also a chance that your opponent may gamble and make the call with AT or even Ax, leaving you in a strong position. With threes, unless you're getting called by dueces, the best you can reasonably hope for is the coin flip against overcards. So I can't equate pushing with threes to pushing with jacks here. As for being a strong play at the chipleader, I think it would be better to pull that once the micro stack busts out.

I'd much prefer JJ for the reason's you've stated, also that that take away two possible straight cards, making the edge slightly better.As for waiting for the micro stack to bust first, nothing wrong with that.Me, I push the edge immediately and show that, even with second stack, I'm the table leader, and am not afraid to push big with slight edges.

[Jordan 1]

it's a dumb move because the dude with 3s put himself in a position to be elimanted when he didn't need to.He put his tourney life on the line with a small pair against a chip leader who is more than likely going to call there.He could have easily waited for the small stack to bust out and then work on first.The push with 3s is silly and a bad tournament strategy no matter your "read" or showing that you will play back at a big stack when there is a guy who can't post more than 2 blinds. It basically shows how dumb his tournament strategy is. Spademan, you're off here. Be the table captain all you want, this is a bad play when you have a super short stack behind you and the second smallest pair possible.- Jordan

[brian67 0]

It's called a coinflip. You have to win a few to win a tournement. Neither the 3 3 or the A K made a bad play in this case, but if you're going to call the move with the 3 3

the dumbest move ever

then you simply need to play a lot more poker. Not only did he have the better hand (even if only by a few percent) but by making the move first he will get a lot of hands to fold there.