folding kings pre-flop?

[Blacksheep626 0]

Alot of times it isnt unreasonable to fold KK pre flop if there is already someone all in and another person has called behind. Most of the time one if not both of them have atleast an ace and all it takes is another one to hit for you to go broke. Ive seen Phil Hellmuth fold KK pre flop because he didnt wanna risk his entire chip stack at that point in the tournament. So again it always depends on where you are in the event if its late in the tournament and you are a few places from the money then i would say to definitely get out of there as there is no need to go broke on the bubble especially when there is already someone all in that will probably get knocked out.

[Nutcracker 0]

As I stated previously, his limp signals strength to me, not weakness. He may very well be sitting on AA (or any A for that matter). If I call and an A flops, I just saved myself from going broke, and I've still got enough chips to play comfortably.

If he really does have AA and you just smooth call, with the intention of going all in if no ace falls, you realize you'll be going all in 85% of the time anyway (since 2 of the aces are gone). Your chips are likely getting into this pot one way or another, why give him the advantage of seeing if he makes a hand before deciding to put the rest in? Absolutely horrible.

i agree, with Iboarts completely on this issue. If you raise anymore there is a good chance you are going to end up all in. Now that probably isn't the worst thing in the world, but at the same time, if an ace hits that flop i'd say between one of the two of them you are probalby dead . I think if you move all in on the big stack he is probaby going to call you anyway and the isolation didn't work.

The thing being that if (like in this situation) the small stack has the ace and the big stack has the smaller pp or other speculative hand, you'd rather win a big sidepot between yourself and the big stack. In this situation, the big stack had QQ and the small stack had A6. What happens when the flop comes AJ5? You probably end up checking it down or maybe getting bluffed off your hand, like lboarts would do (hopefully no bluffs into dry side pots though!). So instead of being up to 2600 and gaining money on this hand, you'd just lose the 450 to small stack and have no sidepot with big stack. Way to go.Look, it's simple. By pushing all in you either chase the big stack away and get a nice overlay on a hand where you're likely a big favorite, or he's going to call and you're going to be a 70% favorite to MORE THAN double up. If you can't take this chance, you need to stop playing poker. By calling you give someone a peek at the flop to outdraw you. It would have been nice if the big stack had A4 in this situation and would have clearly folded to an all in, only to have an A flop and punished the weak/tight for being such a weak little bitch.

[lboarts 0]

Your chips are likely getting into this pot one way or another, why give him the advantage of seeing if he makes a hand before deciding to put the rest in? Absolutely horribleOnly if your so undisciplined that you can't tell when your beat. Call anyone you want weak, but weak is not being able to lay down a good hand when you're beat. Weak is not recognizing that you can increase your chances of surviving this hand by seeing the flop first. Weak is pushing in pf and hoping for the best. Weak is not having enough confidence in your post flop playing abilities to even want to see the flop.Weak is cashing in only 30% of your MTTs and 50% of your STTs.I got your weak right here. :roll:

[alf13 0]

Last night i was knocked out of a tourmanent with Kings becasue i moved in preflop. I mean yes i had a dominant hand, but when that ace hits on the flop you are so often dead. (Alf called my 3000 chip rerasie and then moved in on me with his aq). You know Kings are one of those hands with an achilles heel. amnyway boss is calluibg git to go.

I had made the standard raise out of early position....and ChuckSty did a very smart thing......He oversold his hand to make it look like he was protecting a vulnerable pair to AK, AQ......namely JJ, TT, 99...etc...In my mind.....If I had lost the hand...I would have still been in the top 4 in chips at the final table....and I needed to race to get chips to hold off the anslaught I was recieveing from my right from a big stack.....If I wanted to win...I needed to gamble....so I made my mind up that I was in a classic coin flip...and I was not going to lay down that hand after I had already layed down 88 and AJ to allin raises earlier.As it turned out.....He got me to commit because of the oversell...and i got lucky.....That pot was the one I used to beat back and beat up the big stack on my right by calling his raises and using position to take some pots off him..That "gamble" was what allowed me to finish second.Too bad it was a semi-suckout.... :wink:On the flip side of the arguement....had he taken the flop....and no Ace hit..he could have moved in then and chopped away a pot from me and kept me in the precarious position of having to deal with the big stack to my right playing alot of pots.

[Nutcracker 0]

Only if your so undisciplined that you can't tell when your beat. Call anyone you want weak, but weak is not being able to lay down a good hand when you're beat. :roll:

The flop comes Q94 and you're first to act. Tell me, are you beat? How are you so "disciplined" to know if you're beat when you're first to act postflop and have absolutely no visibility since the big stack could be calling here with nearly any two cards. About the only "safe" flops for you have a K in them. You're gambling with your tournament a whole lot more by playing so weakly, giving him a chance to catch up before getting the chips in. The only way you say you're gonna know you're beat is if an A falls, but you know what, more often than not, he doesn't have an A, so you're only setting yourself up to get bluffed out of a pot.

Weak is not recognizing that you can increase your chances of surviving this hand by seeing the flop first.

I'd say your chances of surviving the hand improve quite a bit if you get the big stack out. Considering 2/3 of the time you're going to think you have a safe flop and get your money in on the flop anyway, I'm willing to bet your chances improve if you push preflop.

Weak is pushing in pf and hoping for the best.

Perhaps, but retarded is letting your opponent catch up on the flop to knock you out simply because you weren't "weak" enough to push preflop.

Weak is not having enough confidence in your post flop playing abilities to even want to see the flop.

What postflop play? You don't have enough chips to do anything postflop really. You either will all in, fold, or hope to check it down, and chances are, if he's checking it down with you, you're ahead anyway and just can't get any more chips from him. Chips you could have gotten preflop if you weren't trying to make a "great play".

Weak is cashing in only 30% of your MTTs and 50% of your STTs.

You might have more ITMs than average because of your limp to the money attitude, but I guarantee that you will make more money in the long run by pushing your large edges rather than playing weak/tight poker. You want to win the max, not lose the min.Quit pretending like you're some sort of MTT or SNG god that can make great laydowns. You're not, and you don't.

[lboarts 0]

OK nut, I've decided you and I will never agree on this issue. I've also decided replying to everything you said in your last post would take me way too long, and I've hogged enough of this thread. I respect your position without agreeing with it.And I'm not pretending.

[SapphireTiger 0]

OK nut, I've decided you and I will never agree on this issue. I've also decided replying to everything you said in your last post would take me way too long, and I've hogged enough of this thread. I respect your position without agreeing with it.And I'm not pretending.

i'll make it easy.lboarts. you're wrong.

[Nutcracker 0]

I also respect that you have your own opinion, no matter how -EV it may be

[alf13 0]

You are both right in a round about way....but look at how Chuck played his KK against me....by playing it strongly....I read it as defensive...and I "gambled" on a coin flip....and thus..he got me to walk right into an allin with the worst hand.....AQ vs. KK....

[lboarts 0]

In my mind.....If I had lost the hand...I would have still been in the top 4 in chipsAlf, this statement you made is ultimately the deciding factor why I would decide to call. I'm sure large stack in the OP was thinking this as well.

[alf13 0]

In my mind.....If I had lost the hand...I would have still been in the top 4 in chipsAlf, this statement you made is ultimately the deciding factor why I would decide to call.  I'm sure large stack in the OP was thinking this as well.

Yes...but remember that I thought this while pretty sure that I had two overcards.......I was wrong......

[faisal 0]

this hand happen in a tournament buy in (50+5) i have a little above average(avg-1700) i have 1900 in chips. blinds at this point 25-50. Utg+1 raises all in to about 450 the chip leader has who has 5500 calls in the cutoof seat. What is my play here? i think there is only two here move in or fold... what do u guys think? can u fold here?

HMMM....if you have to ask this question, you are now officially retarded.Why are playing poker?Good move-you push all in as well.Only prob here is if chip leader folds now, you cud lose this pot, and not have a chance to gain your chips back.great move=flat call, and make a bet post flop...or even push then. Basically, making a good post flop play.horrible move-foldWhy? Because heres the deal...say mr utg has AA. OK, well your screwed, HOWEVER, you stand to lose only 450 chips, chips you can make back..and more, from the chip ldear.

[TwistedEcho 0]

urgh i really really think calling is bad.If he has AA, your going broke here regardless, thats poker.If he has something like AK/AQ, if he hits an ace, it happens, but ALL the flops where he misses, you'll bet and he folds - whereas allin preflop you get all his chips.If he has QQ-99 and the flop has an ace, or a king he probably folds, whereas preflop he goes allin.By just calling your playing really weak (scared of 3 aces?) and letting him hit his hand before he gets all his chips in, and letting him get away from a missed flop.Just push preflop, i honestly cannot see any reason not to, if you go out you play another tournament, if you win this hand you have lots of chips. I don't get why there are 5 pages for such a simple decision