folding kings pre-flop?

[workz 0]

so many posts on a pretty simple problem...

[Fnava621 0]

Well I think 99% of us agree that folding is not an option.I can see valid points for calling and pushing if the flop agrees and going all-in pre-flop.I don't think either move is bad depending on your goals in the game, your playing style and of course what you know about the big stack.Very nice debate though, one of the better ones I have seen in a long time on here.Another thing may be to switch up how you play this hand, alternating between the two. I may have missed it, but how many players were left to act after you with KK?

I was in the BB

[UNCpoker 0]

Well I think 99% of us agree that folding is not an option.I can see valid points for calling and pushing if the flop agrees and going all-in pre-flop.I don't think either move is bad depending on your goals in the game, your playing style and of course what you know about the big stack.Very nice debate though, one of the better ones I have seen in a long time on here.Another thing may be to switch up how you play this hand, alternating between the two. I may have missed it, but how many players were left to act after you with KK?

I was in the BB

Duh, sorry, brain dead there! :-) Let me say this on live play since I started playing live. I have kept track of big hands that I have all-in pre-flop late in a tourney, after second break.These are the results with KK:Just to let you know what hands I lost to. I lost to - just to give you an idea of hands that called.44 - OP hit a set1010- OP hit a setQJ suited - OP made a flushA2 suited - OP hit an aceAQ off - OP hit an ace and made flushWon twiceJJAKJust waiting for these to average out.

[troyomac 0]

but at this point is it not necessary to risk my tournament life

Are you asking us...or telling us ?If the chip leader smooth called an all in...make him pay. Push Push Push.

If you push and he's got AK, AQ, etc he's likely to call pf, knowing he still has over 3k if he loses. See the flop, and go from there. KK is a great starting hand, but you're mixing it up with someone who can afford to call you if he's got an A. You have a much better chance of surviving this hand by seeing the flop before you risk your entire stack. Pushing here preflop is not the way to go, IMO.

i love your signature "scared money never wins" when clearly you're scared to push all in with KK against a hand like AK or AQ...any poker player i've ever met would love those odds (especially the AK)...you're HUGE favourite to double up...and in tournaments, bigger stacks gives you more control of the table...so i say GO FOR IT!ps i just noticed there were 3 more pages after this, and it could have been talked about by now! lol sorry

[rog 0]

KK should definately push in here, and not even care if BigStack calls or folds. If BigStack folds, great. He donated dead money to the pot and you and ShortStack are fighting over it. If he calls, unless he's got AA, he's a big dog. Odds are he'll feel pot committed and call.Assuming he does not have AA, seeing a flop only helps BigStack. If he has a smaller pair, you let him flop a set. If he has any ace, you're letting him hit top pair. Even if he has 7-2 off, you're letting him represent if an A hit. Your hand has it's biggest edge NOW. You dont stand much a chance of improving. Push him out or get his chips in NOW while you have a big edge.

[lboarts 0]

I'd just like to say I've really enjoyed this thread, and debating this hand.It seems more people advocate pushing in pf than calling.There are 2 main reasons why I would call:1) It's early in the tournament. As I've said before, tournaments are all about survival, and if I think I have a better chance of surviving the hand by calling than I do by moving all in pf, then I call. Sure, I want to win the hand, but surviving it comes first because it is early and there's still time to build my stack if I must fold on the flop. If this were later in the tournament, or I was short stacked, then I push all in pf.2) I feel I have a much better chance of getting large stack to lay down on the flop than I do preflop. Because my starting hand is so strong, seeing the flop allows me to make a better decision as to whether I feel I'm still ahead or not, and chances are I will be. If I call and have to fold, I still have 1400 chips to work with.To each his own, and I'm not saying pushing all in pf is a horrible play, as some have said about calling. I see good points on both sides of this issue.

[rog 0]

2)  I feel I have a much better chance of getting large stack to lay down on the flop than I do preflop.  Because my starting hand is so strong, seeing the flop allows me to make a better decision as to whether I feel I'm still ahead or not, and chances are I will be.  If I call and have to fold, I still have 1400 chips to work with.

[edit...whoops...got pot odds argument wrong]Right now you KNOW you are ahead. After the flop you'll have a tough decision to make. Waiting gives you more ways to lose this hand. He can hit his flop and bet you out. He can hit his flop and you not see it so you bust out to his raggedy 2-pair flop, or a low set. An ace could come and you fold to a bet. Give him the tough decision. Isn't that the gap theory?Now I am nowhere NEAR the most experienced player here. Maybe I'm just thick, and I dont mean this to be disrespectful, but to me at least, I haven't seen any reason offered not to push other than being afraid of getting busted early. To each his own I guess, but it seems glaringly obvious that the right play is to get your money in now. Am I dumb? Do I just not get it?

[stoodz 0]

Calling isn't horrible here, but it's not the move I would make. I'm more of an accumulator than a survivor. The big stacks range of hands is so enormous that it's going to be difficult to tell if the flop is safe or scary. By calling you inherit a lot of pressure when the flop comes down to make a decision, whereas pushing pre-flop with what is going to be the best hand the vast majority of the time put all the pressure on him.I'm much happier pushing here and having the big stack lay down his hand and taking the short stack heads up for 3:1 on my money. If he happens to have AA and calls me, or calls with an underpair and flops a set, then so be it, that's poker. You aren't going to get many oppurtunities better than this to double up.

[otnemem 0]

I folded KK about two days ago.I raise big, one all in, and one quick call.  From what I knew about the guy his call meant AA, KK, QQ, or AK.  After talking to him for a little while I was sure it wasn't AA or AK, which left me with QQ and KK.  The original all in guy was a donk and would only push with an A or 1010 and higher.  A9, A10, AJ, AQ, and AK were the possible hands I figured he had.  Knowing this, I folded.From his talking, I put the caller on either QQ which I am way ahead of or KK which I don't really want to see because I am either playing for half or nothing.  I really didn't think he had QQ, though, and something told me it was KK.  Seeing as I figure him for KK and the other for about A10, I fold.I either split with the KK or I lose the pot because an Ace hit.  If the Ace was suited and/or the same suit as one of my kings, I am even more unhappy.  I am at best about 33 percent to win, and at worst about 30.I folded and the caller flipped up KK and the all-in player flipped up AJ.An ace spiked and he doubled up.

I'm sorry, but since nobody else seemed to address this (but I didn't read the entire thread) I'd like to highlight this as the most utterly inane logic I've ever witnessed.

[lboarts 0]

Calling isn't horrible here, but it's not the move I would make. I'm more of an accumulator than a survivor. The big stacks range of hands is so enormous that it's going to be difficult to tell if the flop is safe or scary. By calling you inherit a lot of pressure when the flop comes down to make a decision, whereas pushing pre-flop with what is going to be the best hand the vast majority of the time put all the pressure on him.I'm much happier pushing here and having the big stack lay down his hand and taking the short stack heads up for 3:1 on my money. If he happens to have AA and calls me, or calls with an underpair and flops a set, then so be it, that's poker.  You aren't going to get many oppurtunities better than this to double up.

This is exactly why I call. I get to act first after the flop. By just calling and then pushing all in on the flop, you still put the pressure on him, and you give yourself a free look at the flop before having to commit your entire stack. Sure, you give him a free look too, but I'll take the chance he missed the flop and lays his hand down. If he's holding AA or a small pair, he's calling preflop anyway, and if his small pr hits you're still losing. If his small pr misses on the flop, you stand a much better chance of him laying it down. And if he does have AA and an A flops, I have a much better chance of surviving this hand by check folding the flop. Basically, seeing the flop gives you a much better chance of not having to gather your things, wish e1 luck and slink away from the table disappointed that you lost with KK.

[UnionGuy 0]

There is a reason why KK is a second best starting hand.

Actually, KK is the number #2 starting hand in NLHE. It's only an underdog to AA. You should push all your chip in the middle. Every time. Period. If someone calls you with AK, then great. They are a huge dog to you.

[JSHamm 9]

This is exactly why I call.  I get to act first after the flop.  By just calling and then pushing all in on the flop, you still put the pressure on him, and you give yourself a free look at the flop before having to commit your entire stack.  Sure, you give him a free look too, but I'll take the chance he missed the flop and lays his hand down.  If he's holding AA or a small pair, he's calling preflop anyway, and if his small pr hits you're still losing.  If his small pr misses on the flop, you stand a much better chance of him laying it down.  And if he does have AA and an A flops, I have a much better chance of surviving this hand by check folding the flop.  Basically, seeing the flop gives you a much better chance of not having to gather your things, wish e1 luck and slink away from the table disappointed that you lost with KK.

So you'd prefer to be out of position on this play? Pushing preflop would negate positional relevance to the hand, and you've put the pressure on him to call. When the flop hits (if you only call), you could push all in there and only get called if he thinks he has you beat or he'll fold if he doesn't. You're losing chips right there. At least pre-flop, you push, he calls and there's no deciding at that point.

[UnionGuy 0]

so many posts on a pretty simple problem...

[rocksquid 50]

Move all in, take away the the decision making process if an ace spikes. And if it does, as Scotty says 'that's poker baby'.

[Beavis68 0]

I would call here and see the flop.  Barring an A or a pair on the flop, you should be safe to move all in here.  If large stack catches an o-e or a flush draw, he may gamble and call you.  Pushing all in pf is only asking to get called by AK, AQ, etc.  See the flop is what I would do.

so if an ace hits are you automatically folding?

If you have to ask this, it is better to move in pre-flop.It is pretty hard playing KK in a big pot after an A hits. The pot is big enough that any bet will cripple you, and if you bet small, you may get the pot stolen from you.Better to push in PF.

[lboarts 0]

This is exactly why I call.  I get to act first after the flop.  By just calling and then pushing all in on the flop, you still put the pressure on him, and you give yourself a free look at the flop before having to commit your entire stack.  Sure, you give him a free look too, but I'll take the chance he missed the flop and lays his hand down.  If he's holding AA or a small pair, he's calling preflop anyway, and if his small pr hits you're still losing.  If his small pr misses on the flop, you stand a much better chance of him laying it down.  And if he does have AA and an A flops, I have a much better chance of surviving this hand by check folding the flop.  Basically, seeing the flop gives you a much better chance of not having to gather your things, wish e1 luck and slink away from the table disappointed that you lost with KK.

So you'd prefer to be out of position on this play? Pushing preflop would negate positional relevance to the hand, and you've put the pressure on him to call. When the flop hits (if you only call), you could push all in there and only get called if he thinks he has you beat or he'll fold if he doesn't. You're losing chips right there. At least pre-flop, you push, he calls and there's no deciding at that point.

Out of position? Why do so many people think early position is a bad position? There are numerous times I prefer early position to late position. This is one of them. By calling here with the intention of moving all in after the flop, I'm allowing myself a free look at the flop before committing all my chips. The gamble in this play is that the large stack misses the flop. And even if he hits, you still stand a good chance of doubling up, i.e. if he has AQ and Qxx flop. If he folds to my all in bet, I'm content going HU with all in guy for a 1375 pot, thats almost a double up right there, and its still EARLY.As for the second bolded statement, I want the decision. Poker's all about decisions, and Ive deicided to call and push, or call and check fold if I think I'm beat. If an A flops and he checks behind me, then I bet small on turn and river and try to milk him for a small side pot. I just can't see how not going broke on this hand isn't unavoidable, unless he hits the flop. An earlier poster mentioned large stack flopping 2 pr, or a set. If 2 hi cards flop, like J 10, I would lead out with a smallish bet and if he calls continue that to the river, unless he raises when the board pairs or shows a flush or str8. A hidden set on the flop is about the best way for large stack to bust me. as I would have the toughest time putting him on this.

[TripDaddy 0]

Dupe.

[TripDaddy 0]

Clearly a push - preflop. You need to make him fold all random hands that could beat you post flop - Acrap, and 22-TT. He will mostly likely call you with JJ-AA, as well as with AK, AQ. Both of these are good things, especially AQ. When you hold KK, YOU WANT YOUR OPPONENTS TO CALL YOU ALL IN PREFLOP WITH A NAKED ACE. This is a GOOD THING!! Be calling you give him a chance to outplay you if an Ace hits the board. And worse, you give him a bigger chance to make a hand out of crap. If I am the chip leader, I will call virtually any short stack, with virtually any two cards barring 72o and the like. Don't give him that chance to make a hand out of nothing.If you need more reasons to push, read Krafty's post above.Great post Krafty.

[JSHamm 9]

Out of position? Why do so many people think early position is a bad position? There are numerous times I prefer early position to late position. This is one of them. By calling here with the intention of moving all in after the flop, I'm allowing myself a free look at the flop before committing all my chips. The gamble in this play is that the large stack misses the flop. And even if he hits, you still stand a good chance of doubling up, i.e. if he has AQ and Qxx flop. If he folds to my all in bet, I'm content going HU with all in guy for a 1375 pot, thats almost a double up right there, and its still EARLY.As for the second bolded statement, I want the decision. Poker's all about decisions, and Ive deicided to call and push, or call and check fold if I think I'm beat. If an A flops and he checks behind me, then I bet small on turn and river and try to milk him for a small side pot. I just can't see how not going broke on this hand isn't unavoidable, unless he hits the flop. An earlier poster mentioned large stack flopping 2 pr, or a set. If 2 hi cards flop, like J 10, I would lead out with a smallish bet and if he calls continue that to the river, unless he raises when the board pairs or shows a flush or str8. A hidden set on the flop is about the best way for large stack to bust me. as I would have the toughest time putting him on this.

Fair enough. A few points though:By just calling you're letting Ax suited or offsuit see the flop fairly cheap in relation to his stack. If he had pocket Aces, and the flop came rags you were going to push anyway and he'd of course call, so either way you're going broke on that hand. So, you may as well push because if you had pre-flop it would have been a lot more expensive for him to call that Ax. If he catches it, then that's it barring any K that may hit on the turn or river.In my opinion, I'm playing to win the tournament, not for my life...there'll be others, but here's a good chance to get in good position.

[lboarts 0]

Out of position?  Why do so many people think early position is a bad position?  There are numerous times I prefer early position to late position.  This is one of them.  By calling here with the intention of moving all in after the flop, I'm allowing myself a free look at the flop before committing all my chips.  The gamble in this play is that the large stack misses the flop.  And even if he hits, you still stand a good chance of doubling up, i.e. if he has AQ and Qxx flop.  If he folds to my all in bet, I'm content going HU with all in guy for a 1375 pot, thats almost a double up right there, and its still EARLY.As for the second bolded statement, I want the decision.  Poker's all about decisions, and Ive deicided to call and push, or call and check fold if I think I'm beat.  If an A flops and he checks behind me, then I bet small on turn and river and try to milk him for a small side pot.   I just can't see how not going broke on this hand isn't unavoidable, unless he hits the flop.  An earlier poster mentioned large stack flopping 2 pr, or a set.  If 2 hi cards flop, like J 10, I would lead out  with a smallish bet and if he calls continue that to the river, unless he raises when the board pairs or shows a flush or str8.  A hidden set on the flop is about the best way for large stack to bust me. as I would have the toughest time putting him on this.

Fair enough. A few points though:By just calling you're letting Ax suited or offsuit see the flop fairly cheap in relation to his stack. If he had pocket Aces, and the flop came rags you were going to push anyway and he'd of course call, so either way you're going broke on that hand. So, you may as well push because if you had pre-flop it would have been a lot more expensive for him to call that Ax. If he catches it, then that's it barring any K that may hit on the turn or river.In my opinion, I'm playing to win the tournament, not for my life...there'll be others, but here's a good chance to get in good position.

If I reraise all in pf, it will cost the large stack 1450, because I have 1900 and he already has 450 on the felt.If I call, then I'm left with 1450 and when I move all in after the flop, its going to cost him 1450. So either way, it costs him the same, so I'm essentially getting a free look at the flop BEFORE risking my entire stack.

[otnemem 0]

There is a reason why KK is a second best starting hand.

Actually, KK is the number #2 starting hand in NLHE. It's only an underdog to AA. You should push all your chip in the middle. Every time. Period. If someone calls you with AK, then great. They are a huge dog to you.

Yeah- oh, wait, what?

[rog 0]

So either way, it costs him the same, so I'm essentially getting a free look at the flop BEFORE risking my entire stack.

No, no, no. HE is getting the free look, not you. Your hand is made. You have only 2 outs. He needs to see the flop MUCH more than you. Everything about this situation puts you at a disadvantage post-flop.

[Jelly-Filled Ace 1]

Instinct, or outstanding reads.http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/2005/07/big-...er9-part-6.htmlsample of the blog:"...my gut feeling and do the unthinkable -- lay down my KK! I showed Kevin my hand and told him, "I know you have Aces, so I'm going to lay this down." His protruding eyes told me I was right! As he picked up his jaw off the table, he flipped over his...."The entire dogger9 blog is an excellent story. If you dream of being in the Main Event, read on.

[lboarts 0]

So either way, it costs him the same, so I'm essentially getting a free look at the flop BEFORE risking my entire stack.

No, no, no. HE is getting the free look, not you. Your hand is made. You have only 2 outs. He needs to see the flop MUCH more than you. Everything about this situation puts you at a disadvantage post-flop.

As I stated previously, his limp signals strength to me, not weakness. He may very well be sitting on AA (or any A for that matter). If I call and an A flops, I just saved myself from going broke, and I've still got enough chips to play comfortably.

[ChuckSty 0]

but at this point is it not necessary to risk my tournament life

Are you asking us...or telling us ?If the chip leader smooth called an all in...make him pay. Push Push Push.

If you push and he's got AK, AQ, etc he's likely to call pf, knowing he still has over 3k if he loses. See the flop, and go from there. KK is a great starting hand, but you're mixing it up with someone who can afford to call you if he's got an A. You have a much better chance of surviving this hand by seeing the flop before you risk your entire stack. Pushing here preflop is not the way to go, IMO.

i agree, with Iboarts completely on this issue. If you raise anymore there is a good chance you are going to end up all in. Now that probably isn't the worst thing in the world, but at the same time, if an ace hits that flop i'd say between one of the two of them you are probalby dead . I think if you move all in on the big stack he is probaby going to call you anyway and the isolation didn't work. Honestly i'd call preflop and if a ace doens't hit i'd push in. If it did hit, and big stack bets alot i'd fold. And leave myself with plenty of chips. You are going to get to see his cards even if you end up folding. Last night i was knocked out of a tourmanent with Kings becasue i moved in preflop. I mean yes i had a dominant hand, but when that ace hits on the flop you are so often dead. (Alf called my 3000 chip rerasie and then moved in on me with his aq). You know Kings are one of those hands with an achilles heel. amnyway boss is calluibg git to go.